Hi girls.

Sometimes I wonder about male privilege. I am a feminist, and I have no doubt that male privilege exists, there's many things men take for guaranteed simply because they were born "male". But I also argue whether the level of privilege is the same for all, and I really don't think so, with men perceived as "feminine" being placed at the end of spectrum, and sometimes treated worse than women.

This is because I unfortunately still have to present as a guy, but I'm very feminine in my demeanor, voice and even face, and I can say, that while I have experienced a little bit of male privilege (for example, no one ever told me to shave my body or that I needed to pluck my eyebrows, despite me internalizing the female beauty ideals and giving in to the pressure), however, it was mostly superficial, transitory and temporary. My voice always give me away, and people start treating me IMMEDIATELY differently once they hear me, talking to me like I don't know better, or think that I am younger. But even if they don't think I am younger, my opinions are taken less seriously and I'm easily dismissed, unlike my brother for example (we're twins, but realllyyy different) who has a masculine voice and everyone takes him seriously and treats him with respect and dignity. He also has the privilege of actually having a social life, which I don't, mine is rather difficult.

This is to say that I'm in many ways already treated like a woman, while not questioning that I have probably received privilege in situations I am not even aware of. Basically I'm either treated like an annoying child or a stupid girl most time, especially with teenagers, I'm just not sure about which one it is.

What's about you, what's your experience with male privilege?? Thank you for reading

Things that didn't happen to me as a male:
* being interrupted by some random guy cause he felt compelled to tell me how nice my legs are
* being told by a guy on the street where he wanted to put his penis in me
* having my technical concerns cast as me not "liking" something.
* being mindful that some people are inclined to interpret my outfit as concent.
* lack of eye contact during business discussions.
* butt being grabbed as I walked by not my partner

Yes, I definitely realize it exists! I am just arguing to what degree we really experience. I'm treated like I'm second class person in most settings, even in familiar environment. My thoughts and opinions are dismissed rather quickly and people at restaurants treat me differently, sometimes are even nicer because I am cutesily femme, but most are still condescent. I have been bullied and harassed for my femininity publicly. I know that when I transition I will lose of all the remaining privilege I may have had, but to what degree will I notice? I obviously wouldn't know.

Quote from: Auroramarianna on July 28, 2014, 07:54:25 AM
What's about you, what's your experience with male privilege??

Certainly made it easier to succeed in my career - men seem to be taken more seriously in the office. Also in social situations, I was an attractive male, meaning that both men and women paid attention to me. As a plain-looking female, not so much for either.

However I feel strongly that there is a female privilege that our culture doesn't notice because males don't complain about it. It's wonderful not to be assumed to be predatory in most situations. Women give me a smile pretty much everywhere, assuming we have something in common (which is true, on some level). As a male, it was shameful to ask for help or to admit I didn't know how to do something (once had a mechanic yell at me because I didn't know how to change a tire), whereas people are helpful to women.

Quote from: suzifrommd on July 28, 2014, 08:12:40 AM

However I feel strongly that there is a female privilege that our culture doesn't notice because males don't complain about it. It's wonderful not to be assumed to be predatory in most situations. Women give me a smile pretty much everywhere, assuming we have something in common (which is true, on some level). As a male, it was shameful to ask for help or to admit I didn't know how to do something (once had a mechanic yell at me because I didn't know how to change a tire), whereas people are helpful to women.

I don't think that's necessarily rooted in female privilege, just that people expected you to be superior to women in those tasks when you presented as male. The mechanic wouldn't yell at the woman because he assumes she "knows no better". I believe that, to succeed in attaining male privilege, you must be masculine to some degree. For example, as soon people in my class noticed I was clumsy, they also started treating me like I was inferior to other boys, and thus failing at acquiring male privilege.

Men (and some women) also assume they can take advantage of me, because I won't notice. They couldn't be more wrong.

This thread really reminded me of an add I saw on the tv a while back

As a beta male I don't think I have much male privilidge. People routinely talk over me in meetings and I get dismissed by the "real men" in the room because they sense a weak male (and they would be correct).

When I'm out in female mode I seem to be getting the exact same treatment from men but women are a lot nicer to me now. I am just about to go full time and I am aware that I will slide down the totem pole and will be considered incompetent by guys and no one will listen to me. Not much different than my current life I think.

I was in an odd situation as a child growing up in that I was often assumed to be female by strangers but friends of the family assumed I was supposed to be male. I was totally excluded from guys-only groups and also from girls-only gatherings so I didn't get much in the way of privilege in early life but seemed to get the disadvantages of both.

By my late teens I could not pass for male and got the full brunt of sexism when I entered the workforce. When I heard radical feminists talk of "male privilege" I just want to barf and ask them "What about no privilege at all"?

Quote from: Eris on July 28, 2014, 11:18:11 AM
This thread really reminded me of an add I saw on the tv a while back

Oh gawd this video is dysphoria inducing.

As to the OP, I find "male privilege" doesn't exist much if you don't have the looks, the money, and power (oh yeah, and the height too) to back it up and be warranted. Privilege still has to be earned.

If you are a short, balding manlet then male privilege will mostly be a mirage and fleeting. I'd rather be an attractive female instead. Life would be so much more fulfilling and you'll gain a different sort of power the poor feller just wont ever have.

Quote from: Evelyn K on July 28, 2014, 01:00:30 PM

As to the OP, I find "male privilege" doesn't exist much if you don't have the looks, the money, and power (oh yeah, and the height too) to back it up and be warranted. Privilege still has to be earned.

If you are a short, balding manlet then male privilege will mostly be a mirage and fleeting. I'd rather be an attractive female instead. Life would be so much more fulfilling and you'll gain a different sort of power the poor feller just wont have.

Precisely.

And lol, fortunately I'm not balding but yes I'm short and not strong at all, and possess feminine features. I would love to be an attractive woman, but it's reallyyyy unpredictable, so I hope for the best but expect the worst.

I had already seen the commercial, it's really good, there are just so many double standards in our society.

But also, I am not sure whether being an attractive woman is a blessing or a curse...! So much more objectification and jealousy. Also, attractive women are still taken less seriously than men (whether they are attractive or not), and society keeps reinforcing that a girl's self worth is tied to her looks, so she becomes dependent on them... which can be good, until you start aging and you have no skills to make up for the loss.

The only 'male' privilege I can think of that I had that I can think of was the ability just to not be messed with when walking alone. I guess it was a privilege, I mean I spent a massive amount of time alone in college just getting from point A to point B (scorned the bus system)... but I mean, it wasn't really so much a privilege as 'faceless body in the crowd', which made finding friends annoying.

Then again, when you are a 5"7' guy, with no muscle mass, no fat, glasses, and no apparent talent, and semi-androgynous, I guess you just sorta tend to stick out more as furniture than a person xD

I'm hoping that my ability to be ignored does carry over somewhat though...

Quote from: Auroramarianna on July 28, 2014, 01:07:48 PM
Precisely.

And lol, fortunately I'm not balding but yes I'm short and not strong at all, and possess feminine features. I would love to be an attractive woman, but it's reallyyyy unpredictable, so I hope for the best but expect the worst.

You're short? I'm 5'-3.7" now that's short! Luckily i'm not bald either and turning out pretty darn OK.

QuoteAlso, attractive women are still taken less seriously than men (whether they are attractive or not)

Maybe ... Unless you are Condoleeza Rice

Quote from: Evelyn K on July 28, 2014, 01:38:38 PM
You're short? I'm 5'-3.7" now that's short! Luckily i'm not bald either and turning out pretty darn OK.

Maybe ... Unless you are Condoleeza Rice

Lolol, and I wish I was a bit shorter! I'm 5'6", I think, it's not thaaaat short, but compared to most men it is. But as a woman I would be slightly taller than average.

Lol, is Condoleeza Rice even attractive? ahaha

xxxx

Well you did say attractive or "not"

Actually she has nice gams. But boy does she strike fear in my heart. o.O

Quote from: Eva Marie on July 28, 2014, 12:13:22 PM
As a beta male I don't think I have much male privilidge. People routinely talk over me in meetings and I get dismissed by the "real men" in the room because they sense a weak male (and they would be correct).

When I'm out in female mode I seem to be getting the exact same treatment from men but women are a lot nicer to me now. I am just about to go full time and I am aware that I will slide down the totem pole and will be considered incompetent by guys and no one will listen to me. Not much different than my current life I think.

Most definately.

God Eva, that mirrors my whole male experience pretty much. I do however stand up to those that do talk over me and try to make them understand that interupting someone speaking is just plain rude. I think I shame them way more than itimidate them, 'cause eventully they do the same crap again and again I go through the whole rudeness speech again.

That is the thing about this whole male priviledge thing, no one ever seems to believe me when I say that I don't feel I have ever experienced it. I have been passed over for promotions when I worked a real job. Looked over and not taken seriously as someone with way less experience in jobs than I had. Women have always been way nicer to me than men so... My best friend when I was younger, his wife was actually jealous of me and thought he had feelings for me and thought me gay or just not quite right. He told me this even and it was like the pink elephant in the room. Eventually they divorced but not because of me though. She screwed around on him. I guess I really just don't get it though.

I was rather short(5'4") for a male and skinny, always had long hair. But I've gotten by with my fair share of male privilege. I started at my current job last October (2 months into my physical transition) within 3 months I was put in charge of handling the drawings for a rather large client for us. Now by that time I was 5 months into my transition. Looking at that I had heard I didn't look super masculine at that time. But it was that they all see me as male. This is why I say it is male privilege that did this.

Now the two other designers that handle this clients work are the two other women who have been working here for years. I think the main reason I got put above them is due to my applying and presenting male. Now I am good at my job and have been in this field since I was a senior in high school (9 years ago) but honestly they have been in this company for years. How do you put someone who isn't even eligible for your benefits yet in charge of you 2nd biggest client unless there is some sort of privilege going on.

Quote from: Hayley on July 28, 2014, 02:17:26 PM
I was rather short(5'4") for a male and skinny, always had long hair. But I've gotten by with my fair share of male privilege. I started at my current job last October (2 months into my physical transition) within 3 months I was put in charge of handling the drawings for a rather large client for us. Now by that time I was 5 months into my transition. Looking at that I had heard I didn't look super masculine at that time. But it was that they all see me as male. This is why I say it is male privilege that did this.

Now the two other designers that handle this clients work are the two other women who have been working here for years. I think the main reason I got put above them is due to my applying and presenting male. Now I am good at my job and have been in this field since I was a senior in high school (9 years ago) but honestly they have been in this company for years. How do you put someone who isn't even eligible for your benefits yet in charge of you 2nd biggest client unless there is some sort of privilege going on.

Talent and being good or the best at what you do. Some people just aren't as talented as others. You mention drawings. Is that in the capacitiy of art? If so I honestly don't think it is male privaledge as much as possible talent levels.

Personally, and I will probably make some people angry at me but believe me that is not my intent. We are in the year 2014 and males and females are educated the same and so on. Both are on a more level playing field than ever before.

Or I may just be an anomoly, 'cause I never felt that I have ever experienced male privaledge. Or maybe people percieve me more of what I want to be than what I am. But that's just wishful thinking though and sounds kind of dillusional, huh?

Quote from: Jess42 on July 28, 2014, 03:21:04 PM
Talent and being good or the best at what you do. Some people just aren't as talented as others. You mention drawings. Is that in the capacitiy of art? If so I honestly don't think it is male privaledge as much as possible talent levels.

It could be that the difference in skill at the job is noticeable but my reasoning for believing that it was my male privilege was due to it happening so fast. Sure I'm a better designer than both of them and I pay more attention to the details while all they do now is copy and past my standards for this client. They don't handle much, if any custom designs.

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Personally, and I will probably make some people angry at me but believe me that is not my intent. We are in the year 2014 and males and females are educated the same and so on. Both are on a more level playing field than ever before.

Sure the field is possibly more even but in the department I work in at my company there are 7 designers. 1 head designer, one 3d/motion artist, 2 construction drafters/designers, me (client work/a mix of design and construction I was hired to do constuction drawings) and the two women who handle client work but I am tasked with making sure there are no issues when they finish a drawing. My first 2 months I was reporting to one of the women who had the most experience with those jobs. By the 3rdonth I was redoing all the standard drawings and our roles flipped. She had done over 4000 jobs for this company. I was hardly over 110. It seems odd to me based on something like that it would be anything other than my privilege.

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Or I may just be an anomoly, 'cause I never felt that I have ever experienced male privaledge. Or maybe people percieve me more of what I want to be than what I am. But that's just wishful thinking though and sounds kind of dillusional, huh?

Honestly I'm unsure of other times. It wasn't until I started coming out and such that I started noticing when I would happen as I was/am presenting male. I wouldn't say you are delusional. Everyone is different and all have varying degrees of privilege perceived and unperceived. Either way.

Edit: bad proof reading by me, fixed an auto-correct change

Quote from: Hayley on July 28, 2014, 04:26:57 PM
It could be that the difference in skill at the job is noticeable but my reasoning for believing that it was my male privilege was due to it happening so fast. Sure I'm a better designer than both of them and I pay more attention to the details while all they do now is copy and past my standards for this client. They don't handle much, if any custom designs.

Sure the field is possibly more even but in the department I work in at my company there are 7 designers. 1 head designer, one 3d/motion artist, 2 construction drafters/designers, me (client work/a mix of design and construction I was hired to do constuction drawings) and the two women who handle client work but I am tasked with making sure there are no issues when they finish a drawing. My first 2 months I was reporting to one of the women who had the most experience with those jobs. By the 3rdonth I was redoing all the standard drawings and our roles flipped. She had done over 4000 jobs for this company. I was hardly over 110. It seems odd to me based on something like that it would be anything other than my privilege.

Honestly I'm unsure of other times. It wasn't until I started coming out and such that I started noticing when I would happen as I was/am presenting male. I wouldn't say you are delusional. Everyone is different and all have varying degrees of privilege perceived and unperceived. Either way.

Edit: bad proof reading by me, fixed an auto-correct change

There ya' go Hayley. That probably has way more to do with it than anything else. Some people are just way more talented and like you said pay attention to little details that some people may miss. Sometimes in jobs just more talented people come along and blow minds with their work.

Oh I agree. I'm not dillusional just crazy. but in a good way.