How can passing mean anything other than being read as sis? If you're passing, then you're actually "stealth"

More so than looks you have a history. Whether you pass or not you always have the option to divulge your history or not. (Well, in this day and age you might not be in control of that) Plenty are passable, some are totally out about being trans, others take an "it is what it is" philosophy of neither broadcasting or denying, and then there are those that coverup or hide the past as completely as they possible can. (Which is nearly impossible these days) Some further granularize this into "Stealth" and "Deep Stealth".

Best way it was described to me is this, stealth means no one knows that you are transgender, you basically did everything possible to destroy/eliminate your old life including all paper and electric trails. Passing just means that your appearance and voice are that of your target gender.

Honestly if you are looking to go stealth you better start up a rather big fire and start tossing stuff in, and also get some forged documents in your new name

Quote from: kariann330 on July 28, 2014, 06:10:46 PM
Honestly if you are looking to go stealth you better start up a rather big fire and start tossing stuff in, and also get some forged documents in your new name

It may be a lot easier to be trans these days compared to the 70's. However it is far far harder to be totally stealth. Unless maybe if you start when you are still in grade school... maybe. (Too much newspaper coverage). Make it pre-K

To me, passing means that people cannot tell my history until I inform them. In other words, I have some control over when they find out that I'm trans.

Non-passing means they can tell by looking at me.

Stealth means nobody knows I'm trans, so word can't spread. For someone who transitioned "in place" it's basically impossible.

Does that make sense?

Quote from: suzifrommd on July 28, 2014, 07:22:12 PM
To me, passing means that people cannot tell my history until I inform them. In other words, I have some control over when they find out that I'm trans.

Non-passing means they can tell by looking at me.

Stealth means nobody knows I'm trans, so word can't spread. For someone who transitioned "in place" it's basically impossible.

Does that make sense?

I transitioning in place, absolutely impossible

Yeah, as another who transitioned in place... passing 100% of the time might mean I'm "temporarily stealth," but as soon as someone talks to somebody who knew me before, runs my Social Security number, etc. my past could come out. I'm not *really* stealth b/c I haven't broken ties to that past.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on July 28, 2014, 07:42:17 PM
Yeah, as another who transitioned in place... passing 100% of the time might mean I'm "temporarily stealth," but as soon as someone talks to somebody who knew me before, runs my Social Security number, etc. my past could come out. I'm not *really* stealth b/c I haven't broken ties to that past.

True. I'm in the same boat. I still live in the same town that I always have. Yeah, there's a chance I could run into some of the people that knew me from before. (I'm not counting family in that group) But, I don't really care at this point. Sure, if I had the money to move somewhere else I would do it. Not so much to "sever ties" but to move some place that isn't as dull as hell. That would be my only real motivation for moving.

Basically what everyone said, but stealth is impossible. It's been a dream of mine since forever, a dream I should give up on but won't. My fave movies are (A) GATTACA (B) A History of Violence , and (C)The Talented Mr. Ripley. All these movies have a common theme: they are all centered around characters who want to destroy their past and start anew. In the first two, the characters are found out, but in the end, their dreams are achieved. Or it works out. In the last one, Ripley kills anyone and everyone that finds out.

"Don't you just take the past and put it in a room in a basement and lock the door and never go in there? That's what I do, And then you meet someone special and all you want to do is to toss them the key and say; open up, step inside, but you can't, because it's dark, There's demons and if anybody saw how ugly it is. I keep wanting to do that, fling the door open, just let light in and clean everything out. But I can't."

Tom: I thought I killed Joey. I buried him in the desert.
Edie: Are you crazy? Are you like some multiple-personality schizoid? What? How did you pick our name?
Tom: It was available.

But the best, is GATTACA...

"It's funny, you work so hard, you do everything you can to get away from a place, and when you finally get your chance to leave, you find a reason to stay."

In that film, he accepts himself and finds someone to love. I know these are all male characters, but, hey, fact is I'm pheotypically male. For now. In ayear I hope to be genetically and phenotypically female, finally. After 32 years. There is a book though that is my favorite book and there is no way the author did not rely heavily on the trans narrative--Half-life: a Novel. it's all about a woman who desires a type of surgery to become herself in a world thatfully accepts her but that isn'tenough as her body dysphoria is overwhelming. She has two heads.

"The half life of Uranium 238: 768 million years. The half-life of myself: 30." This book is like my bible.

Edit: I haven't transitioned in place. I only moved 35 miles away but I live in the most densely populated area in the country, and second in the world. I haven't seen anyone I know/knew once, except once when I chose too. Then I chose not to do it ever again.

Laura Squirrel : Yeah, I hear you. I should have added that I'm content with this state of affairs, and like you, I'd only move if there were compelling other reasons to do so. (And even if I did, I'm not willing to hide from my family and friends and start over completely!) Besides, people's memories are oddly short; I know a bunch of cashiers and so on figured out what was going on, but they've clearly forgotten by now. It stops being "news" after a while.

Passing and stealth applies both to pre and post operative state. I speak from my experience and I am pre. To me, passing means not being viewed as male in either looks or voice, but upon closer inspection the 'inspector' begins to question. Stealth, to me, means passing so convincingly that you can literally have a physical examination by a doctor up to the groin area and he wont know. Stealth means you are being intimate with a man and can strip down to your panties and he does not know or even suspicions. You have an eternal menstrual period in these cases. Stealth means that your entire life stemming back to childhood is exclusively female. Your entire family body knows you only as a female. Your sisters, brother, mother and father may know the history but anyone beyond them knows you only as female. Stealth means your first job was as yourself, a girl. Your entire job history is that of a girl. Your college records are female. Your physical presence is that of a normal woman. Your voice, while slightly deep, is unquestionably female. You marry and raise a son (his of course) and attend normal functions, have friends, etc. You have a loving wonderful family. You have joined a womens church group. You are now 'deep' into stealth. No one knows that your bits are slightly different from theirs. You are regarded as someone whose opinion holds great power in your circle.  And your husband loves you and lives to make you happy because he sees and knows your life.  Then at night you see reports on other 'girls' who come out and when you lay in your bed at night almost asleep, you have a slight wonder what would happen if my neighbor found out (she's nasty and gossipy). What if the girls in my group found out? What if my boss knew? And although I sat on the board when lgbt rights were being discussed for our company policy, I listened to the nasty jokes and wanted to say something -- but could not. What if my son knew?  When you are asking yourself these questions, you are 'stealth'. You are deep deep stealth.  You are not just 'passing'. Stealth means you are now a female with a deep secret. 

Yes, it may mean something entirely different to someone else, but the above is what it means to me and to most of the few other girls I know. Nowadays, if someone were to find out, I would not deny it. In an odd way, I think it may feel liberating somehow. On what level, I do not know. I hope this helps in answering your question.

Quote from: herekitten on July 28, 2014, 09:14:23 PM
Passing and stealth applies both to pre and post operative state. I speak from my experience and I am pre. To me, passing means not being viewed as male in either looks or voice, but upon closer inspection the 'inspector' begins to question. Stealth, to me, means passing so convincingly that you can literally have a physical examination by a doctor up to the groin area and he wont know. Stealth means you are being intimate with a man and can strip down to your panties and he does not know or even suspicions. You have an eternal menstrual period in these cases. Stealth means that your entire life stemming back to childhood is exclusively female. Your entire family body knows you only as a female. Your sisters, brother, mother and father may know the history but anyone beyond them knows you only as female. Stealth means your first job was as yourself, a girl. Your entire job history is that of a girl. Your college records are female. Your physical presence is that of a normal woman. Your voice, while slightly deep, is unquestionably female. You marry and raise a son (his of course) and attend normal functions, have friends, etc. You have a loving wonderful family. You have joined a womens church group. You are now 'deep' into stealth. No one knows that your bits are slightly different from theirs. You are regarded as someone whose opinion holds great power in your circle.  And your husband loves you and lives to make you happy because he sees and knows your life.  Then at night you see reports on other 'girls' who come out and when you lay in your bed at night almost asleep, you have a slight wonder what would happen if my neighbor found out (she's nasty and gossipy). What if the girls in my group found out? What if my boss knew? And although I sat on the board when lgbt rights were being discussed for our company policy, I listened to the nasty jokes and wanted to say something -- but could not. What if my son knew?  When you are asking yourself these questions, you are 'stealth'. You are deep deep stealth.  You are not just 'passing'. Stealth means you are now a female with a deep secret. 

Yes, it may mean something entirely different to someone else, but the above is what it means to me and to most of the few other girls I know. Nowadays, if someone were to find out, I would not deny it. In an odd way, I think it may feel liberating somehow. On what level, I do not know. I hope this helps in answering your question.

You mean post-op can't be distinguished? Also what's meant by an eternal menstrual period?

Quote from: Evelyn K on July 28, 2014, 05:48:41 PM
How can passing mean anything other than being read as sis? If you're passing, then you're actually "stealth"

Yeah, until you're around somebody who knows you are transsexual.

In this day and age if even I were to apply my computer skills and dig deep enough, I could discover a person's past. But I have to have a reason to get involved in discovering someone's past in the first place. So, when I meet someone do I always peer into their past? -of course not. I need a reason to go look up someone's past ie: a personal attack on me, they're going to babysit my kids, or a potential employee, tennant, etc. Something along those lines. Otherwise I do my best to give people the benefit of the doubt and accept them at face value. Which is how most people accept others.

Most of the people who knew me pre-transition don't recognize me now. This even goes for store employees I see regularly. I have no intention of trying to live stealth. If asked about my past I'll gladly explain it. However unless asked I'm just a normal woman going about my business, which is how I'm seen every day.

Allie

I don't understand why people put so much emphasis on whether not insignificant strangers "might" be able to tell if they were born biologically male or not. To me that seems more like paranoia. Transsexual women use the term "passing" to signify that people in society have no idea that they were not born biologically female. Going "stealth" means not letting anyone know that you were not born biologically female. There is a clear distinction there. In my opinion, who cares? I mean, who cares if someone "might" know? There will always be some degree of hate, prejudice or discrimination you will encounter at some point so why fixate so much on it?

I could sit around complaining about all the discrimination, hate, prejudice, intolerance, the assaults, violence, harassment and various other violent crimes I've went through but why? Why fixate on it? It does not do me any good to sit around dwelling on it. All I can do is try to change how I let fear influence my emotional state by doing things to make sure I feel safe; like having a concealed weapons license and taking my firearm with me everywhere I go. Like I extensively talk about, "One of the most powerful emotional states capable of creating drastic changes in one's behavioral and psychological cognitive processes is fear" (Florez, 2014 p 110). In my research I have found that men and women are affected differently by interpersonal violence or the probability of violence. As transsexual women I purport that we always have that possibility of violence in the back of our minds because we know we are members of the most hated social minority in the United States. I also suspect we all know that crimes committed against transsexual women tend to be more violent and hate motivated than crimes against any other social minority. Thus, it's understandable why people fixate on "passing" and the decision to go stealth, but I find that too negatively affects transsexual women emotionally causing high levels of anxiety, depression, fear, paranoia and never really feeling okay with themselves all of which are risk factors to suicidal tendencies.

In my opinion I feel we are better off simply coming clean and leaving it to history. Being a transsexual is one small part of who we are but if you allow it to consume the very essence of who you are then you become nothing more than a shallow shell where your transgender status dictates your life. What fun is that? When I tell someone new about my cursed birth conditions I make sure they know I will allow them to ask any questions they want and I will not get offended, angry, upset or hold it against them. However, once that question session has been completed I never want to hear another question from them about transsexuality ever again unless I magically bring it up (which I don't). I make this crystal clear. If they bug me I will stop being friends with them because they are disrespecting me and I do not put up with it irrespective of who they are. So my opinion on "passing" and being "stealth" is that they are both BS really.

Quote from: Natalie on July 28, 2014, 11:07:29 PM
I don't understand why people put so much emphasis on whether not insignificant strangers "might" be able to tell if they were born biologically male or not. To me that seems more like paranoia. Transsexual women use the term "passing" to signify that people in society have no idea that they were not born biologically female. Going "stealth" means not letting anyone know that you were not born biologically female. There is a clear distinction there. In my opinion, who cares? I mean, who cares if someone "might" know? There will always be some degree of hate, prejudice or discrimination you will encounter .... So my opinion on "passing" and being "stealth" is that they are both BS really.

Natalie

I am with you on this one but can understand that there are some who just wish to be treated as cis.  'Passing' in my own eyes is more important to me than 'passing' according to some arbitrary standard.  Being MAAB, non binary MTA, I want to signal this.  To me this is being authentic.  Simply said, but hard to effect. Like so many parts of the trans* experience it is an ongoing challenge, but who said life was meant to be easy!

Safe travels

Aisla

Quote from: kariann330 on July 28, 2014, 06:10:46 PM
Best way it was described to me is this, stealth means no one knows that you are transgender, you basically did everything possible to destroy/eliminate your old life including all paper and electric trails. Passing just means that your appearance and voice are that of your target gender.

Honestly if you are looking to go stealth you better start up a rather big fire and start tossing stuff in, and also get some forged documents in your new name

I dunno, maybe it's because of where I live, but all of my records and IDs are in the correct name and gender, and legally the change can't be disclosed. If someone was really desperate to dig into my past, I'm sure it would probably be feasible to find traces, but why would anyone do that? It's enough to pass a background check for a job.

I mean, I moved cities anyway for work. My family would never disclose. I basically ended up as stealth almost by accident. Doesn't have to be that big a deal.

Quote from: Natalie on July 28, 2014, 11:07:29 PMIn my opinion I feel we are better off simply coming clean and leaving it to history. Being a transsexual is one small part of who we are but if you allow it to consume the very essence of who you are then you become nothing more than a shallow shell where your transgender status dictates your life. What fun is that?

Which is exactly why I don't disclose. Why allow one fraction of my identity to dictate how everyone will treat me forever? I'm stealth because I don't want it to overwhelm who I am, because I don't need it casting a shadow over my entire life.

But then, maybe that's just who I am. There are plenty of things that I don't casually disclose: my suicide attempts, my anxiety disorder, my pain condition, my history of self-harm... And a few things I wouldn't be willing to mention even anonymously on susan's. Oh and then there are all the things I hold in confidence for other people. So I have tons and tons of secrets. No big deal.

I think this varies totally to your circumstance and is philosophical more than practical.

I transitioned at work, openly and very publicly. If I pass; fine, I do in general society (or not, I don't actually care). But I can never 'pass' with my colleagues as they will always know who I was before.

But, and for me this is the crux - I am accepted. And with acceptance is respect. My colleagues treat me as the woman I am, even if they know my past.

To be honest I think that is what all decent sensible people would do to anyone in society no matter who or what they are or ever have been.

It is called common human decency.

Quote from: Sarah7 on July 29, 2014, 02:40:55 AM
Which is exactly why I don't disclose. Why allow one fraction of my identity to dictate how everyone will treat me forever? I'm stealth because I don't want it to overwhelm who I am, because I don't need it casting a shadow over my entire life.

But then, maybe that's just who I am. There are plenty of things that I don't casually disclose: my suicide attempts, my anxiety disorder, my pain condition, my history of self-harm... And a few things I wouldn't be willing to mention even anonymously on susan's. Oh and then there are all the things I hold in confidence for other people. So I have tons and tons of secrets. No big deal.

Everyone chooses their own path and not everyone will treat you a certain way simply because you are transgender. What I do know is that when you cruise around in stealth mode you always have to worry about this person or that person "finding out" or worry what whomever will do if it's discovered. I've been there and it eventually consumed me like I've seen to virtually every other person that chooses that path. You cannot say this  or that, have to watch what stories you tell, how you explain your life, have to be careful who you bring around those that do know, be mindful of what they say, how they say it....it's all just BS. Fact is, you ARE transgender and that will never go away and it IS part of who you are. You have control over who you allow to be in your life and thus, how they essentially treat you because if someone treats you poorly you can disassociate yourselves from them and find people that won't treat you like that.

After everything I've been through and the dozens of people in my life nobody treats me any different than any other woman they know. Nobody fixates on me being a transsexual, nobody talks about it, jokes about it; it's in the past where it belongs. They don't say, "Oh yeah she is a transsexual" or make any distinctions like that even around other transgender people. THAT is acceptance. Not cruising around having to be careful about everything you say or do around people you know.

Quote from: Cindy on July 29, 2014, 02:51:28 AM
I transitioned at work, openly and very publicly. If I pass; fine, I do in general society (or not, I don't actually care). But I can never 'pass' with my colleagues as they will always know who I was before.

How about with people who have started working there since you transitioned? They don't know, presumably don't need to know but work with a whole bunch of people who do know. I'm in that situation myself now. Although my transition at work was notably public, me being trans is now very old news. I don't have a need to tell new staff that I'm trans, I won't be hiding it from them but I'm not going to say "Hi, I'm Grace, I'm trans" when I meet them. Fortunately I work in a sector that is fairly respectful toward trans people, no prying questions and no gossip as far as I can tell. Still, new staff are likely to find out one way or another as my former name (same surname) is plastered over old documents and publications. I'm not letting it bother me.