I appreciate some people find faith personally valuable but I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't believe in any of the thousands of deities described by cultures across history but I also don't believe in certain knowledge. As a result, I consider it technically possible an entity matching the definition of a deity could exist but also think it's almost infinitely improbable that humans have ever interacted with such things since there's never been any proof that meets the standards of evidential rigour I try to use. Of course, I could be wrong about that but if there had been then I expect I would've read about it in my scientific textbooks and journals.

I do not value endless speculation when the speculation is unfalsifiable. I'd rather move on to questions humanity can attempt to answer with the tools presently available. If other people think the speculation warrants their time then I entirely support them being entitled to that, they have the right to seek their own happiness and judge what's best for it. However, the second they step beyond that then I have a rather large problem, irrespective of whether that's religious people, anti-vaccine activists, homeopaths, psychics, anthropogenic climate change sceptics, or countless other groups.

Quote from: sororcaeli on July 30, 2014, 04:59:11 PM
I think our ongoing dilemma is that we don't stop and decide for ourselves what "God" is and base everything on someone else's idea. Hardcore atheists are really bad about that, especially when they take quotes from the Bible out of context to try and prove a point. One such example is from Psalm 137, verse 9: "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." Instead of reading the whole psalm and understanding it to be a lament of a people against the destruction of Jerusalem, they take that one quote and say, "SEE! CHRISTIANS CONDONE INFANTICIDE!" Puhlease...

There are some wacky Christians out there, but they didn't invent the Abrahamic religions. Plus, the Bible isn't Christianity For Dummies; it's a book of parables, and it's full of symbolism and metaphor. It's like a double-edged sword: one side contains a secret history and the other side is a tall tale that the masses take literally. Plus, it's my opinion that the Old Testament and New Testament are speaking from two very different perspectives.

The OT was originally written in Hebrew and Aramaic which both have very symbolic alphabets, so when they say "elohim" that actually translates into the plural, "gods" while "el" is "god". Think of Superman's name: Kal-El. So, all of the judgmental, wrath-like tendencies you see in those stories is really more like the behavior of a mortal being... perhaps from another world? I think that's far more plausible than angels and demons.

The NT was written in Greek, which is also full of symbolism. You can even apply Jewish numerology (gematria) to certain words that correlate and they each add up to the same number. For example, the Greek word for 'Will' is Thelema. It's numerological number is 93. The Greek word for 'Love' is Agape. It also adds up to 93. Together, Will and Love become the force of liberty and individual strength. Not the lower will of the ego, but the higher Will, or divine Will.

You'll find that Abrahamic religions that have eliminated their mysticism speak against any kind of direct spiritual connection and insist that you go through an avatar or a priest. This isn't the rule of a God of Love; this is the rule of men.

Anyway, sorry for the giant history lesson. This stuff has been an obsession of mine for almost 15 years now. The main point is, who cares what the Christian God is on about, because it's either a) a fabrication, or b) symbolic of something mortal and powerful, human or non-human, posing as gods.

I couldn't agree with you more. Well said.

QuoteI think our ongoing dilemma is that we don't stop and decide for ourselves what "God" is and base everything on someone else's idea.

I have two possible thoughts on the subject:

a) We're here due to a huge number of accidents that cause full evolution.

b) Some thing created something that we evolved into.

      b1) If this is the case, then cool, thanks, whom/whatever. But I don't believe I owe you anything, anymore than people or a race of people owe the descendants of wronged people.

Does a child of a set of parents intrinsically owe their parents anything because they made the child? No. People love and respect the parents that have earned that behavior. If my mom had me, dumped me and I made it on my own, then I owe her nothing.

I dunno, just my current thoughts.

--hugs--

Quote from: Khaleesie Fiona on July 31, 2014, 03:32:38 PM
I have two possible thoughts on the subject:

a) We're here due to a huge number of accidents that cause full evolution.

b) Some thing created something that we evolved into.

      b1) If this is the case, then cool, thanks, whom/whatever. But I don't believe I owe you anything, anymore than people or a race of people owe the descendants of wronged people.

Does a child of a set of parents intrinsically owe their parents anything because they made the child? No. People love and respect the parents that have earned that behavior. If my mom had me, dumped me and I made it on my own, then I owe her nothing.

I dunno, just my current thoughts.

--hugs--

Yeah, I wouldn't claim that we are owed any explanations from on high, wherever/whatever that is. Besides, that removes the mystery and the curiosity to delve deeper into oneself. Without mystery we wouldn't have philosophy, or even art. The Self where the best truth is; not some special book. Our holy books are full of lessons and teachings, and they are worthy of our attention, but they are not absolute.

I think your (a) and (b) are analogous. If you check out the work of Lloyd Pye you'll see some fascinating stuff on the existence of four different hominid types that still exist and how they're only partially related to homo sapien. Pye suggests a genetic [alien] interference, and there's plenty of evidence to see how this could have been possible. As far as there being some kind of celestial/supernatural creation event set in motion by a deity, that's where I become atheist.

Another great speaker is Mark Passio who touches on the subject of the abandonment by our supposed extraterrestrial ancestors, and how we are still subconsciously suffering from it. Whether you can believe in that stuff or not it's still worth the listen.
Check it out:

I'm an Episcopalian, I believe in God.

From Buddhism to raelians to Scientology to Christianity to Islam to mormons and beyond. It's all just comic book characters to me, written by "men" for "men" as a form of entertainment in the dark ages (or modern times) when there was nothing better to do and no one smart enough to question authority.

I have found that living without religion is itself a form of freedom since I no longer have to conform to some ancient rules or other social silliness.

Could there be a god? Perhaps. Is it very likely or is everything just chance? I would say that random chance over billions of years is more likely than a 6000 year old earth with fake dinosaur bones buried in it to keep us on our toes lest we doubt the beliefs. That's my take,

Some of this has been excerpted from writing I have done here and elsewhere.

Do I believe in God? It is important to me to separate the concepts of religion with the idea of spirituality. Acceptance is essential to the latter, not to the former. For me there can not be a connection to the infinite sans acceptance, and without that connection I am unable to live authentically. To put it another way there are no inauthentic paths to acceptance, and without acceptance, authenticity is impossible.

I cannot live a life of self deception (denial if you will) about who I am and how I see my place on this amazing planet if I am unable or unwilling to face myself. I cannot embrace my sexuality, I cannot express my gender, I cannot find my core without acknowledging that I am greater than the sum of my parts and that that piece of the universe inside is what gives me my humanity. Connectedness with people and my environment are a definitive part of my growth as a person. I think that without connections, I am doomed to psychopathy. My life may be rich materially, but it will be barren emotionally. Without seeking to expand my connection to every part of my environment I will not grow and evolve and my spiritual life will stagnate.

I identify as a woman. I usually but not always, identify as female. I am in transition. Is that bogus? I don't think so. I think it is the expression of who I authentically am. I wish I could have figured this out long ago. If I had, would I have moved decisively to the feminine? Maybe, I very much like it over here, but maybe I could have expressed myself outside of a bimodal space and found joy there. I do not think that living a life of gender fluidity needs to be less authentic nor less grounded in spirituality and acceptance than any other. There are lots of reasons to not fully transition, not the least of which is that both ends of the gender dichotomy are lousy approximations for who someone is.

At my time of life I do feel pressure to become authentic, become female, and to do it now! I fear that I will lose my last, best chance at finding both my temporal and spiritual self if I am not decisive. If I were to die without living and being Julie, that would be the greatest and saddest piece of futility that I can think of. I cannot let this slip from my grasp, no matter the cost. That is my reality and I am comfortable with it. Someone else may and probably does, experience life quite differently but no less legitimately.

This summer I have been rocketed into a new dimension of living. I have experienced grace, I have connected with some of the most remarkably outwardly centered people I have ever known, and I have spent hours and days exploring my spiritual nature both here and in other, both secular and sacred venues. I am I think, at the core a spiritual person. What I mean by that is that I am capable of connecting to the essence of everyone I come into contact with. I am touched by more than just the temporal, physical, existential reality of this chunk of spacetime that I inhabit. I am also touched by the spirit of that reality.

I have felt that intuitive connectedness before; not in the context of gender exploration, but in the context of social change. I have worked in soup kitchens, led AA meetings in prisons, participated in social justice and peace initiatives for my entire adult life. In each of those worlds I have known and been known by people whose essential goodness moved my life into the direction of light. Some of my mentors have been deeply and sincerely religious in their beliefs and creed. Some have been secular but just as illuminated by love.

So what is the result of a life with a potpourri of influences on my attitudes and beliefs? I feel enveloped by hope and connected to an infinite goodness. If you wish to call this God consciousness I have no objection. Where I part ways with my more devout fellow travelers is embracing dogma and ritual as the mechanism of connecting to the universe. I eschew supernatural explanations, particularly those that proclaim a single truth, or who find solace in proclaiming any seeker as a heretic. The concept of God for me does not require anthropomorphism, but only the desire to place service above self, love above desire, and generosity above greed.

The relationships with people and with my environment that change me always have a component of giving, of sharing, of placing the well being of others, if not ahead, at least on a par with my own needs and desires. I hope that comes through here, I fervently hope this comes through in my daily interactions. I am by no means saintly. I am by measure impatient, tired, depressed, and angry with people, places and things. What I am discovering is that transition from persona to person provides relief for me from the bondage of self centeredness. In my case at least, the journey to authenticity is also a journey into spiritual growth. The two seem to be inextricably intertwined. I am on a pilgrim's path, but the destination is neither defined, nor does it need definition. I am grateful for the journey, and I am grateful to everyone who has been my teacher, friend, and muse.

Fair Winds and Calm Seas,
Julie

Short answer: No!

Yes I am Christian. I've been though to much and have seen to much to not believe in God.

Quote from: Khaleesie Fiona on July 23, 2014, 02:49:28 PM
And therein lies the problem, or at least a major problem for many people. One can have faith that Grasshoppers will eventually take over, but faith is nothing more than an 'unfounded belief'. People had faith that the planet was flat, at one time.

I don't begrudge people their beliefs, but the whole 'faith' argument is so flawed. I can have faith that I will eventually become filthy rich, but what are the odds of that for a regular ole American? Not too good.

It's tough when people walk up with a book, tell you to read it and have faith that it's all true. Never mind that a great deal of it can't possibly be true. I look back and am appalled at all the attrocities that have been committed by religion, it's sad.

I respect spirituality far more than religion. In my eyes, religion is a business...

No offense meant to anyone, just a conversation.

Its called faith, My prayers have been answered on numerous occasions. So your arguement is flawed but I respect that not everyone has the same beliefs as me.

Quote from: Wynternight on July 23, 2014, 06:05:06 PM
I'd be quite fine with having a period. It would mean I'm the really real me. I'll take the bad and the good.

Not all women experience periods though.

Quote from: Wynternight on July 23, 2014, 04:25:08 PM
I'm agnostic because I believe absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence but I will, if I find there is one, ask what KIND OF SICK F**K makes transsexuals and allows someone to live this life of pain, misery, depression, and self-hatred. One that doesn't care or one that's a giant dick and get their jollies off watching.

God didn't do that though the devil controls sickness and birth defects not God that clearly states that in the bible. Yea I use to ask the same thing but your not suppose to question God.

Quote from: Brandon on August 27, 2014, 01:55:13 PM
Not all women experience periods though.

I'm well aware of that.

Quote from: Brandon on August 27, 2014, 01:52:46 PM

Its called faith, My prayers have been answered on numerous occasions. So your arguement is flawed but I respect that not everyone has the same beliefs as me.

Wow, I'm wrong because coincidences occurred in your life? And it's not possible that those things would have occurred without 'prayer'? OK

Quote from: Khaleesie Fiona on August 27, 2014, 03:06:11 PM
Wow, I'm wrong because coincidences occurred in your life? And it's not possible that those things would have occurred without 'prayer'? OK

Thoes were answers from God and I am damn sure not gonna argue with you. Your wrong period but as I already stated I know everyone doesn't believe in the same thing I do. God doesn't need anyone to defend him so I am not gonna. You don't gotta come at me like that, Yea I can understand why you would think its stupid to believe in God. But I have bern through stuff that proves someones up there. I'm not even suppose to be alive right know from an accident that happend a while so yes that fustrates me when people like you don't even believe theres a slight possibility I mean because I also believe in science but its more so God.

Quote from: Brandon on August 27, 2014, 01:59:30 PM
God didn't do that though the devil controls sickness and birth defects not God that clearly states that in the bible. Yea I use to ask the same thing but your not suppose to question God.

Wow.

So, I suppose that my premature birth that required me to live in an incubator and also required the insertion of a Ventriculoperitoneal Shunt was "the devil's work", eh? So, would that mean that: 1. My mother was somehow an agent of Satan since I was born a three month preemie? and 2. I suppose that the doctors were also doing the Devil's work when they performed the many shunt revisions?

Let me guess...if I had died at six months old or prior to my 18th birthday, (as the docs told my mother when they sent home after six months since they felt there was nothing more that could be done for me at that point.)  that would have been, "God's will", right?

Oh wait...I bet you're going to flip flop and say that "It's God's will" that I am still here now. Never mind that pesky modern medicine.

Quote from: Laura Squirrel on August 27, 2014, 03:31:42 PM


Wow.

So, I suppose that my premature birth that required me to live in an incubator and also required the insertion of a Ventriculoperitoneal Shunt was "the devil's work", eh? So, would that mean that: 1. My mother was somehow an agent of Satan since I was born a three month preemie? and 2. I suppose that the doctors were also doing the Devil's work when they performed the many shunt revisions?

Let me guess...if I had died at six months old or prior to my 18th birthday, (as the docs told my mother when they sent home after six months since they felt there was nothing more that could be done for me at that point.)  that would have been, "God's will", right?

Oh wait...I bet you're going to flip flop and say that "It's God's will" that I am still here now. Never mind that pesky modern medicine.

You can believe what you wanna believe but either way your gonna be judged on judgement day as we as everyone else. And yea it's Gods will, Its Gods will that I'm still here and I hit an artery in my brain. I had a lazy eye in my right eye and if you look at my right eye in my avi its no longer there and I never had surgery because my mom didn't want me to get it. So how you explain that haha lmaooooo and don't say luck because I am just gonna lmfao lol. You and that other women are not even worth arguing with real talk.

So, you chose to not answer my question?

Typical.

Yes, I whole heartedly believe in God. There are entirely too many incidents in my past that were clearly controlled by God; He protected me or caused me to make a change in my life for His purpose. There is no other plausible explanation.

What I generally have no use for is organized religion. People often confuse organized religion and a personal relationship with God and they are not the same.

I also believe in live and let live so whatever your own beliefs are on this subject is fine with me.

I believe there is something. Some people call it God, I prefer to call it balance. Yes there are happening terrible things but there are also happening great things. How could we ever recognize the best of things if there isn't a worst of things. Thats what made me an optimist for most of the time. If something terrible happens, for example a family member died, I'le remember what he did and the great moments we had and how we are united as a family in those times. If its more personal and I get alone and sad, I see it as it means its time I figure myself out. I know there is no messias or some gigantic opportunity thats suddenly going to pop up, its up to myself and being real with myself about it is what made me feel strong. With that mindset, if I ever encounter a problem, I look into myself and that feels like some giant force is pushing me in the air and directly makes me realize that I always can do everything no matter what as long as I act.