Quote from: Nero on September 17, 2007, 07:52:04 AM
Quote from: Hypatia on September 17, 2007, 05:10:38 AM
I'm sorry, my experience leads me to think of this as mostly baloney.
First of all, the unstated fallacy running all through this discussion is that you will get the same predetermined reactions depending on whether you're "passable" or "unpassable." That's what trips my baloney alarm. The world has a wide variety of people with a wide variety of mindsets and perceptions. It isn't all black or white. I get a range of reactions to my femaleness which cannot be all predetermined by my looks.
I'm not the most passable dame in the world, but my feminine nature is so pronounced, that's what most people pick up on. I see this constantly, interacting in public and meeting new people: more than half, I'd say, respond positively to my femaleness in a way that's natural, not forced-- something they sense intuitively. More women than men get it, but lots of men get it too--even guys I knew back when I had a beard and all.
When women meet me, their sense of shared sisterhood kicks in and they speak girl-talk to me as they're used to speaking to other women--it's basically automatic. When gentlemen meet me, their sense of chivalry kicks in. They even kiss me in greeting, which they would never do with another guy. It feels completely natural too, not feigned for the sake of politeness. You can tell the difference.
Then there are the individuals who don't get it, but they're in the minority, in my personal experience. And many other people are neutral--maybe they're the sort who say they don't care about gender one way or the other, they just think of people as individuals. So I just have to say the attitudes expressed in this thread strike me as pretty unrealistic, the assumption that it has to be all one way or all the other. I have a vantage point on this because I look good enough to pass some of the time, but most of the time I probably don't. My experience has shown that looks aren't everything that determines how we present in society. My vibes are distinctly feminine, and that counts for something in the total presentation, as others in this discussion have noted.
Chris is right. Chris, I love what you said and how you said it. You always remind me of what I like about men at their best. 
Blunt, plainspoken, maybe a little gruff, but with profound sympathy for other human beings and a good heart.
The thread discussion and the above are two wholly different things. You're speaking of subconscious reactions. Even though Dr. Phil is a clown, something he always says 'You teach people how to treat you' is true. People reacted in a subconscious way to me as male, but didn't consciously think, 'That little girl with the blond ponytail is a boy'. But if an unpassable transperson has a particularly strong male or female aura, I'll begin to think of them as the aura they project. If an unpassable transperson doesn't project a clear and distinct aura, then...
Also, this topic concerns how you think and relate to unpassable transpeople 'as a whole'. Of course there will be exceptions - mostly for the reason stated above.
"Aura" or "vibe" has been much discussed in various Ts forums on the net. The discussions tend to be divisive, but I think there is a lot to be said for the entire notion of "vibe." There are those who are able to "allow" their auras and those who "clog" their auras or who have an aura that is opposite of their "self-defined gender." Not evryone who states they are ftm or mtf can project that.
I suspect that there are two major reasons: 1) so much effort made with an inability to "see" oneself as their target-gender that they get "clogged-up" and are unable to project anything but confusion or their socialized gender. 2) Those who have no inclination or ability to project any gender other than that they were socialized with.
I have to agree with Nero that many seeming material defects can be well-dispersed by a "chiming" effect that can be created by the man or woman who comfortably expresses his or her gender.
Some of that expression may require relearning, but in many cases if there was always a conflict between who one was socialized to be and who one is, then the sloughing off of the socialized mask is often a very natural process and really doesn't take tremendous effort and practice. That mask will quite often fall to pieces over a rather short (year or two at most) for many people: the most conflicted and the young with incomplete socialization.
The difficulty then becomes picking up on regular material cues that all people emit about their socialized gender. That may require a good deal of effort, but, imo, is best accomplished by working with some targeted and symapthetic friends in the target gender since birth.
My experience tells me that working with other TSes is a limiting process in that regard as most TSes have a lot of relearning to do (even young ones) and that someone without the weight of making changes him- or herself is the best teacher. Or just be particularly observant, keep your ears and mind open and much can be learned in that regard as well.
Everyone appears to have a different learning curve. I hate to even breathe a breath of elitism and the following is not to be elitist, merely based on my own observations of the past decade. Not everyone who indicates they are TS appears to be when you are around them. Even the most materially unpassable people sometimes "vibe" in ways that I have been willing to disregard their appearance and regard them as their target gender.
Other really handsome or pretty men and women claim a target gender, look the part, but their interactions with others do not "clinch" the argument in any way at all. Some will argue that "vibe" is unscientific and capricious, but there definitely seems to be something there that cues us to a gender definition of others: and that does not seem to coincide with looks and surgical alterations.
I have to admit that I have and would continue to be friends with people who might look unpassable, but who definitely have the right "vibe."
Nichole
