Quote from: Kristi on September 16, 2007, 12:28:57 AM

Quote from: Rebis on September 15, 2007, 09:37:54 PM
even born genetic women are starting to appear unpassable to me.

I'm not sure if you are only joking, but I think it is true to some extent.  I notice masculine things on GGs now that I would never have paid any attention to.  After a while it becomes an obsession and begins to mess with your mind.

Kristi

I was not joking.  My mind has definitely been messed.  But like Zythyra said, it's become beautiful, like crossing one of those barrier things that Jonathan Livingston Seagull had to pass through.

Quote from: Kristi on September 16, 2007, 12:28:57 AM
I'm not sure if you are only joking, but I think it is true to some extent.  I notice masculine things on GGs now that I would never have paid any attention to.  After a while it becomes an obsession and begins to mess with your mind.

Kristi

Ha Ha! i'm glad you said that. conversely, sometimes i'll be checking out guys' faces, & thinking, "you wouldn't have much trouble passing (as a woman) at all..."

Quote from: Rebis on September 15, 2007, 09:37:54 PM
even born genetic women are starting to appear unpassable to me.

*ROFL*  I have been passing gg's on my way into the ladies room, and find many of questionable gender.  Brow bossing!  ugh!...But, looking at a very pretty gg girl I work with, I notice she has huge brow ridges.    She could use a little ffs to appear MORE female, if that were possible.  NOT.  And then, there is the one with the obviously male-ish hairline.  Ick!  Maybe I should tell her if she wanted to look more female, well.....LOL....maybe she would tell me to ....ummmm.......and then there is the little *sigh....gimmie a word* I work with, unquestionably gg, but if you listen to her with your eyes closed....yup....guy voice,pitch, resonnance, patterns, vocabulary.....all male.  Maybe I should point that out to her, so she could be more female (even though she is *#$%&@#$!*).

Anyway, like gender identity (yes, I'm going to suggest more than the beloved 2 genders), like orientation, like looks, good and bad, you find diversity.  THANK GOD!  You look at a perfect bouquet of flowers, all perfect.  Yet.....maybe the saturation of the color of one or more could be deeper, so they would be more .....'naturally' beautiful.  And upon closer inspection, it's a pity that several petals appear 'different' on one or more flowers.  Maybe we should do something to make them more....perfect.

All of nature is diverse, by design (or for other points of view, by accident, though beneficial). 
If it were not for that diversity, we would be extinct.  Diversity is inescapable.  All the universe is diverse by design (or by beneficial accident, if that's your preference).  Every particle, every wave, every everything is diverse.

The tough part we, as TS or Androgyne are dealing with on a daily basis that the cisgendered don't even have to think about, are different-gendered brains. Brains that aren't projected properly to others by our birth bodies.  So, we do all we can to make them congruent, by hook, or by crook.  Some of us excell at doing this, partly by genetic inheritance.  Sooo....don't be too proud of your beauty, as though it were earned.......it was an accident, or a gift if you will.  And.....don't be too hard on yourself for your lack of beauty.  Again, not a lack of determination on your part, but genetics.  (okay, I know some have had ffs)

I have very mild brow bossing, and it used to bother me, until I looked at all my genetic female friends, and found only one that did not.  My hairline is way to high, in my mnd, and I wish I could afford microtransplants and a scalp advance.....but I can't.  On the other hand, I see gg women every day that would do anything for my pitiful head of hair.  And my voice is deeper than I would like, though I find 3A to be a naturally comfortable pitch for me.....but I still sound like a guy on the phone.  Okay, so I have more work to do on my voice, and it takes effort....time and effort.  But then, I think of the gg #%$&@$&! I work with, and I wonder if everyone calls her sir on the phone?  And she keeps it a secret?  Who knows.  Too much obsessing.  We obsess on everything.  Our hair, our face, our breasts, our clothes....my God, now I obsess on my nails!
 
It would be really neato if we could all have discovered early in our lives that we were TS, or Androgyne, and did hrt just before puberty for TS.  But then, it would be a very tough decision for parents to make for their children.  I know, personally.  This is possibly a decision my own child may have to make about one of my grandchildren.  For her, the good part is, she and her children were able to live with me and Marcy during my own transition, and know it's nothing to fear.  Marcy asked my grandson for her purse yesterday, and he said,  "which one?  Your's and Papa's look the same!".  "No, Sweetie, Papa's is smaller".
But then, we don't all have that neato opportunity.  I'm just as glad though, for my self.  No, I don't pass as well as I might like, but I do, just the same.  I would be indistinguishable from the general population of gg's had I started hrt pre-puberty.  But I have Marcy, the love of my life.  And my son and daughter, my grandchildren, and my son-in-law.  And it may sound funny, but our little family is a diverse lot.  Again, thank God!

I will not wax poetic, or religious especially, as there is such diversity of spiritual understanding and belief among us all, but I will parphrase a tiny bit of an old literary gift, and say 'Do not worry about earthly things, what you wear, how you look, or for that matter, where your meals will come from, but look to the vast unseen realm to which you are forever connected, along with those you love. That is what matters, this is your treasure.'

Goodnite,
Sleepy Bev






Posted on: September 16, 2007, 09:14:49 PM

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Quote from: y2gender on September 16, 2007, 09:40:46 AM
my eyes are now open to all the possibilities and I can really see the full continuum. I love it, everyone passes as exactly who they are

I love that statement!


Bev,
just passing through

Quote from: Chris on September 16, 2007, 03:27:57 AM
man. why people worry bout sh#t like dis.  women are women.  dudes are dudes. it dont matter if they pass. not pass. look femine. dont look femine.  have a d#ck or dont got one, got tits or dont.  we gotta treat people like they wanna be treated.  what we think aint important. its what they are.  sorry dont wanna look mad but I read stuff like dis all da time now.  we gotta stay together.  there's to much sh#t goin on alredy.  we dont wanna bring it here to.

nice sentiment, but the world isnt so simple, like nero said, most people have cross gender associated features, its what makes us unique, but, there is a distinct, looks female, and looks male. and when hit by one, its not a matter of analysing features, or asking them how they want to be treated. If a visible male walked into my bar, and ordered a drink, in jeans and a tee or in a dress, id refer to them as male and say 'sir' if they corrected me, id apologise, and use whatever they wished to the best of my ability, but im not about to refer to every man in a dress as maam just incase... if thier OBVIOUSLY trying to present as female, i give the benefit of the doubt, but im not perfect, and dont claim to be able to have infalible gender skillz...
a world where passing didnt matter would be nice, but its never going to happen kids. get used to this, its going to be around for a long, long time after all of us are pushin up daisys....
R

Quote from: Rachael on September 16, 2007, 10:27:54 PM

Quote from: Chris on September 16, 2007, 03:27:57 AM
man. why people worry bout sh#t like dis.  women are women.  dudes are dudes. it dont matter if they pass. not pass. look femine. dont look femine.  have a d#ck or dont got one, got tits or dont.  we gotta treat people like they wanna be treated.  what we think aint important. its what they are.  sorry dont wanna look mad but I read stuff like dis all da time now.  we gotta stay together.  there's to much sh#t goin on alredy.  we dont wanna bring it here to.

nice sentiment, but the world isnt so simple, like nero said, most people have cross gender associated features, its what makes us unique, but, there is a distinct, looks female, and looks male. and when hit by one, its not a matter of analysing features, or asking them how they want to be treated. If a visible male walked into my bar, and ordered a drink, in jeans and a tee or in a dress, id refer to them as male and say 'sir' if they corrected me, id apologise, and use whatever they wished to the best of my ability, but im not about to refer to every man in a dress as maam just incase... if thier OBVIOUSLY trying to present as female, i give the benefit of the doubt, but im not perfect, and dont claim to be able to have infalible gender skillz...
a world where passing didnt matter would be nice, but its never going to happen kids. get used to this, its going to be around for a long, long time after all of us are pushin up daisys....
R

Word.

Chris, this isn't about disrespecting a person by not treating them as the gender they want to be treated. The topic is whether or not it's difficult for you to think of an unpassable person as their target gender.
100 something posts in this thread, and peeps are still reading other things into it.
I suspect people would rather turn this into a moral argument than simply answer the topic question.

Quote from: Chris on September 16, 2007, 03:27:57 AM
we gotta treat people like they wanna be treated. 

the title of this thread is: 'Do you find it difficult to think of the unpassables as female?'

if people want me to treat them as cleopatra queen of the nile, i will.  yet, will i see them as cleopatra queen of the nile? that's what, i think, is being discussed here.

Quote from: Rebis on September 15, 2007, 09:37:54 PM
even born genetic women are starting to appear unpassable to me.

I read your post Rebis that you said you weren't joking, so I'm sorry, but when I read this first I actually laughed so hard, I haven't had a good laugh in a while so thanks for that.          

buttercup 🙂

Nero,

I agree, its all about how we are somehow
dissing somebody if we don't treat everybody
exactly the same.

Even people that say they treat everybody
the same vary in some way their
interactions to fit the person in front of them
(maybe a lesser adaptation in their case).
This is just part of this adaptation, some
conscious, other unconscious that occur
in our everyday interactions with others.


Different is not the same as lacking respect.

If a guy sees an obvious trans and even if he respects
her does that means he will he flirt with her,
not likely in most
cases (unless he's specifically looking for that).

I routinely get guys to split themselves in half
to open my door (Often very funny).
I somehow doubt that would happen
if I was unpassable. Doesn't mean
they wouldn't be my friend or anything else, it just
changes the interaction for them, just like it
changes the interaction for me.

I'm sorry, my experience leads me to think of this as mostly baloney.

First of all, the unstated fallacy running all through this discussion is that you will get the same predetermined reactions depending on whether you're "passable" or "unpassable." That's what trips my baloney alarm. The world has a wide variety of people with a wide variety of mindsets and perceptions. It isn't all black or white. I get a range of reactions to my femaleness which cannot be all predetermined by my looks.

I'm not the most passable dame in the world, but my feminine nature is so pronounced, that's what most people pick up on. I see this constantly, interacting in public and meeting new people: more than half, I'd say, respond positively to my femaleness in a way that's natural, not forced-- something they sense intuitively. More women than men get it, but lots of men get it too--even guys I knew back when I had a beard and all.

When women meet me, their sense of shared sisterhood kicks in and they speak girl-talk to me as they're used to speaking to other women--it's basically automatic. When gentlemen meet me, their sense of chivalry kicks in. They even kiss me in greeting, which they would never do with another guy. It feels completely natural too, not feigned for the sake of politeness. You can tell the difference.

Then there are the individuals who don't get it, but they're in the minority, in my personal experience. And many other people are neutral--maybe they're the sort who say they don't care about gender one way or the other, they just think of people as individuals. So I just have to say the attitudes expressed in this thread strike me as pretty unrealistic, the assumption that it has to be all one way or all the other. I have a vantage point on this because I look good enough to pass some of the time, but most of the time I probably don't. My experience has shown that looks aren't everything that determines how we present in society. My vibes are distinctly feminine, and that counts for something in the total presentation, as others in this discussion have noted.

Chris is right. Chris, I love what you said and how you said it. You always remind me of what I like about men at their best. 🙂 Blunt, plainspoken, maybe a little gruff, but with profound sympathy for other human beings and a good heart.

Quote from: Hypatia on September 17, 2007, 05:10:38 AM
I'm sorry, my experience leads me to think of this as mostly baloney.

First of all, the unstated fallacy running all through this discussion is that you will get the same predetermined reactions depending on whether you're "passable" or "unpassable." That's what trips my baloney alarm. The world has a wide variety of people with a wide variety of mindsets and perceptions. It isn't all black or white. I get a range of reactions to my femaleness which cannot be all predetermined by my looks.

I'm not the most passable dame in the world, but my feminine nature is so pronounced, that's what most people pick up on. I see this constantly, interacting in public and meeting new people: more than half, I'd say, respond positively to my femaleness in a way that's natural, not forced-- something they sense intuitively. More women than men get it, but lots of men get it too--even guys I knew back when I had a beard and all.

When women meet me, their sense of shared sisterhood kicks in and they speak girl-talk to me as they're used to speaking to other women--it's basically automatic. When gentlemen meet me, their sense of chivalry kicks in. They even kiss me in greeting, which they would never do with another guy. It feels completely natural too, not feigned for the sake of politeness. You can tell the difference.

Then there are the individuals who don't get it, but they're in the minority, in my personal experience. And many other people are neutral--maybe they're the sort who say they don't care about gender one way or the other, they just think of people as individuals. So I just have to say the attitudes expressed in this thread strike me as pretty unrealistic, the assumption that it has to be all one way or all the other. I have a vantage point on this because I look good enough to pass some of the time, but most of the time I probably don't. My experience has shown that looks aren't everything that determines how we present in society. My vibes are distinctly feminine, and that counts for something in the total presentation, as others in this discussion have noted.

Chris is right. Chris, I love what you said and how you said it. You always remind me of what I like about men at their best. 🙂 Blunt, plainspoken, maybe a little gruff, but with profound sympathy for other human beings and a good heart.

The thread discussion and the above are two wholly different things. You're speaking of subconscious reactions. Even though Dr. Phil is a clown, something he always says 'You teach people how to treat you' is true.  People reacted in a subconscious way to me as male, but didn't consciously think, 'That little girl with the blond ponytail is a boy'. But if an unpassable transperson has a particularly strong male or female aura, I'll begin to think of them as the aura they project. If an unpassable transperson doesn't project a clear and distinct aura, then...

Also, this topic concerns how you think and relate to unpassable transpeople 'as a whole'. Of course there will be exceptions - mostly for the reason stated above.

Quote from: Nero on September 17, 2007, 07:52:04 AM

Quote from: Hypatia on September 17, 2007, 05:10:38 AM
I'm sorry, my experience leads me to think of this as mostly baloney.

First of all, the unstated fallacy running all through this discussion is that you will get the same predetermined reactions depending on whether you're "passable" or "unpassable." That's what trips my baloney alarm. The world has a wide variety of people with a wide variety of mindsets and perceptions. It isn't all black or white. I get a range of reactions to my femaleness which cannot be all predetermined by my looks.

I'm not the most passable dame in the world, but my feminine nature is so pronounced, that's what most people pick up on. I see this constantly, interacting in public and meeting new people: more than half, I'd say, respond positively to my femaleness in a way that's natural, not forced-- something they sense intuitively. More women than men get it, but lots of men get it too--even guys I knew back when I had a beard and all.

When women meet me, their sense of shared sisterhood kicks in and they speak girl-talk to me as they're used to speaking to other women--it's basically automatic. When gentlemen meet me, their sense of chivalry kicks in. They even kiss me in greeting, which they would never do with another guy. It feels completely natural too, not feigned for the sake of politeness. You can tell the difference.

Then there are the individuals who don't get it, but they're in the minority, in my personal experience. And many other people are neutral--maybe they're the sort who say they don't care about gender one way or the other, they just think of people as individuals. So I just have to say the attitudes expressed in this thread strike me as pretty unrealistic, the assumption that it has to be all one way or all the other. I have a vantage point on this because I look good enough to pass some of the time, but most of the time I probably don't. My experience has shown that looks aren't everything that determines how we present in society. My vibes are distinctly feminine, and that counts for something in the total presentation, as others in this discussion have noted.

Chris is right. Chris, I love what you said and how you said it. You always remind me of what I like about men at their best. 🙂 Blunt, plainspoken, maybe a little gruff, but with profound sympathy for other human beings and a good heart.

The thread discussion and the above are two wholly different things. You're speaking of subconscious reactions. Even though Dr. Phil is a clown, something he always says 'You teach people how to treat you' is true.  People reacted in a subconscious way to me as male, but didn't consciously think, 'That little girl with the blond ponytail is a boy'. But if an unpassable transperson has a particularly strong male or female aura, I'll begin to think of them as the aura they project. If an unpassable transperson doesn't project a clear and distinct aura, then...

Also, this topic concerns how you think and relate to unpassable transpeople 'as a whole'. Of course there will be exceptions - mostly for the reason stated above.

"Aura" or "vibe" has been much discussed in various Ts forums on the net. The discussions tend to be divisive, but I think there is a lot to be said for the entire notion of "vibe." There are those who are able to "allow" their auras and those who "clog" their auras or who have an aura that is opposite of their "self-defined gender." Not evryone who states they are ftm or mtf can project that.

I suspect that there are two major reasons: 1) so much effort made with an inability to "see" oneself as their target-gender that they get "clogged-up" and are unable to project anything but confusion or their socialized gender. 2) Those who have no inclination or ability to project any gender other than that they were socialized with.

I have to agree with Nero that many seeming material defects can be well-dispersed by a "chiming" effect that can be created by the man or woman who comfortably expresses his or her gender.

Some of that expression may require relearning, but in many cases if there was always a conflict between who one was socialized to be and who one is, then the sloughing off of the socialized mask is often a very natural process and really doesn't take tremendous effort and practice. That mask will quite often fall to pieces over a rather short (year or two at most) for many people: the most conflicted and the young with incomplete socialization.

The difficulty then becomes picking up on regular material cues that all people emit about their socialized gender. That may require a good deal of effort, but, imo, is best accomplished by working with some targeted and symapthetic friends in the target gender since birth.

My experience tells me that working with other TSes is a limiting process in that regard as most TSes have a lot of relearning to do (even young ones) and that someone without the weight of making changes him- or herself is the best teacher. Or just be particularly observant, keep your ears and mind open and much can be learned in that regard as well.

Everyone appears to have a different learning curve. I hate to even breathe a breath of elitism and the following is not to be elitist, merely based on my own observations of the past decade. Not everyone who indicates they are TS appears to be when you are around them. Even the most materially unpassable people sometimes "vibe" in ways that I have been willing to disregard their appearance and regard them as their target gender.

Other really handsome or pretty men and women claim a target gender, look the part, but their interactions with others do not "clinch" the argument in any way at all. Some will argue that "vibe" is unscientific and capricious, but there definitely seems to be something there that cues us to a gender definition of others: and that does not seem to coincide with looks and surgical alterations.

I have to admit that I have and would continue to be friends with people who might look unpassable, but who definitely have the right "vibe."

Nichole

this unpassable person need not even be a flamin transexual!

woman x walks into your fictional shop to buy x kilos  of potatos, and to you, they look like a man, for some unstated reason, in your eyes, they come accross as MAN, you sir them, they get upset and ask you to say 'maam' you realise a mistake, but still doesnt change the fact you saw a man. this is what this is about, not flaming ->-bleeped-<-s or respect.
R

This thread is still going O.O

Quote from: Rachael on September 16, 2007, 10:27:54 PM

Quote from: Chris on September 16, 2007, 03:27:57 AM
man. why people worry bout sh#t like dis.  women are women.  dudes are dudes. it dont matter if they pass. not pass. look femine. dont look femine.  have a d#ck or dont got one, got tits or dont.  we gotta treat people like they wanna be treated.  what we think aint important. its what they are.  sorry dont wanna look mad but I read stuff like dis all da time now.  we gotta stay together.  there's to much sh#t goin on alredy.  we dont wanna bring it here to.

nice sentiment, but the world isnt so simple, like nero said, most people have cross gender associated features, its what makes us unique, but, there is a distinct, looks female, and looks male. and when hit by one, its not a matter of analysing features, or asking them how they want to be treated. If a visible male walked into my bar, and ordered a drink, in jeans and a tee or in a dress, id refer to them as male and say 'sir' if they corrected me, id apologise, and use whatever they wished to the best of my ability, but im not about to refer to every man in a dress as maam just incase... if thier OBVIOUSLY trying to present as female, i give the benefit of the doubt, but im not perfect, and dont claim to be able to have infalible gender skillz...
a world where passing didnt matter would be nice, but its never going to happen kids. get used to this, its going to be around for a long, long time after all of us are pushin up daisys....
R

Not only is the world so simple, but so is my mind.

Posted on: September 17, 2007, 07:48:18 PM

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Quote from: buttercup on September 17, 2007, 01:01:18 AM

Quote from: Rebis on September 15, 2007, 09:37:54 PM
even born genetic women are starting to appear unpassable to me.

I read your post Rebis that you said you weren't joking, so I'm sorry, but when I read this first I actually laughed so hard, I haven't had a good laugh in a while so thanks for that.          

buttercup

It's okay Buttercup, I meant it, but I know it is funny too.  🙂

Quote from: Rachael on September 16, 2007, 10:27:54 PM
a world where passing didnt matter would be nice, but its never going to happen kids. get used to this, its going to be around for a long, long time after all of us are pushin up daisys....

Rachael,

I'm 51 years young, and am sometimes amazed at how much change I've seen in recent years regarding attitudes about transgender. If we believe it can happen, and even roll up our sleeves and do some work toward achieving our goals, I truly believe we will see the day where "passing" doesn't matter.

Quote from: Beverly on September 16, 2007, 09:56:20 PM

Quote from: y2gender on September 16, 2007, 09:40:46 AM
my eyes are now open to all the possibilities and I can really see the full continuum. I love it, everyone passes as exactly who they are

I love that statement!

Thanks Bev!

Zythyra

the lines of man and woman wont be dissapearing any time soon, nomatter how accepted transgender is. someone being transexual may be accepted in time, to a comparative level to a natal male or female. but i doubt someone who is male bodied will be accepted as female totally any time soon, or vice versa. call me pesemistic if you want.
R

Whenever I see a bearded MAN wearing a dress and heels, I just have to wonder the size of HER two colonels under that dress. Now that's some guts!

I voiced my opinion on this subject in another post. I think it's time to lock this topic as it's divisive even if it wasn't intended to be.

Quote from: Susan on September 17, 2007, 05:01:42 PM
I find it very offensive when people brag on this site about how well they pass. When you do this you discourage every TS who has not yet reached the point that you have. At some point in time every TS here has likely looked like a guy in a dress, then we also have some people won't ever pass as well as others no matter what they do, and it is a smack in the face to each and every one of them. I want it to stop.