Most of us here should have a tuned in trans radar, so if you notice a trans woman in public, do you clock her thinking about "the bad" (what got her clocked) or "the good"?

Can "the good" exist if she's clocked?

I would probably consider both. I'd notice the bad first and then go on to thinking about the good.

I saw a beautiful woman a few months ago walking down the street with a couple of her friends. they passed by and I could hear her talking . I go wow, I hope I can look that believable  some day. She wasn't trying to hide her voice talking to her friends

Of course the good can exist if she is clocked.

In any case, if I am out and about and I see someone I strongly suspect is a transwoman, I don't say or do anything different than I would with anyone else really. I might look at her and think about her features that I like and don't, after all trans or cis I am always sizing up other women at least a it, since I am attracted exclusively to women. Especially with woman I find attractive I try to figure out their sexual orientation but in my expedience it is impossible to figure out from just looking at someone.

Ditto Hikari,
When I notice someone, check out their style and their presence. If there is something negative, I'll watch and make sure it's something I don't repeat myself

Mostly I think "Oh, cool - someone like me! I wonder if she'll be my friend..."
Then I ignore them. Which is all well and good as I don't feel that clockable and folks staring isn't a good thing unless you know they're also trans*.

Quote from: Evelyn K on August 07, 2014, 09:38:43 AM
Can "the good" exist if she's clocked?

Many non-passing women are very beautiful.

When I clock someone in public, I think about the common experiences she and I probably shared.

I actually have a hard time "clocking" trans people in public. There's been a couple of times where I've seen someone that I thought was trans, but couldn't tell for sure.

It's really easy to "clock" someone and nitpick them to death when they're in a trans support group or social group and therefore you can know for sure that they're trans. Their "male" features or "female" features become way more obvious, and it's easy to judge them for it. But out in the wide world, where you can never know for sure if someone is trans or not, it's really hard to say yes or no definitively. Especially if they have a good voice. (That is seriously the ONLY dead giveaway.)

The first time I met someone who I believed was trans, it was at a poker table while I was working in Atlantic City. She had a lot of telltale "trans" signs such as a bigger head, high square hairline with thin hair, wide shoulders, narrow hips, brow bossing, a male-ish chin, and big hands. But here's what made me doubt. Her voice was perfect. And if she was trans, then she must have been LONG post-transition, because she wasn't nervous or paranoid at all, she just sat and blended right in with the two other women at the table. So again, I thought she was trans, but I don't know. Maybe? I couldn't tell for sure because she fit in so well. I kept my mouth shut. That's what I do every time I think I see a trans person in public. Because when they blend in so well, odds are that they're stealth and that "clocking them" would be a very unwelcome experience.

Second time I met someone that I thought was trans in public, it was at a job interview. And there was a guy there with a very small feminine build, and a feminine young-looking face. And when he spoke it kinda sounded like a lot of trans men sound, where although the pitch is perfectly in the male range, the resonance and inflection are still a bit androgynous. But as usual, there was no way for me to tell for sure. His facial features were male enough to be cis, still a bit of a masculine chin and a bit of a thick brow, his voice, although FtMish still could have been within the cis range, his build was small but not unquestionably small, so again, ultimately I had no way of knowing for sure.

Another time, I was driving home from a fireworks display, and I was having "one of those nights" where I was looking at the women on the sidewalk as I drove by, trying to convince myself that my shoulders weren't too big. There was one woman who I looked at and saw that she had a more male-ish build, and I actually told myself "see? That woman has bigger shoulders, and that doesn't stop her from looking completely female." I watched her for a moment, and then about 10 seconds later it occurred to me "Wait a minute! That's Anne Marie." (My trans friend.) So once again, there was someone with features that I usually nitpick to death because I know she's trans. But until I realized it was her, I assumed she was just a cis-woman with a more androgynous build.


Again... it's hard unless you know for sure that someone is trans. Once you can definitively say "yes, this person is trans," then their birth sex's features are obvious and you can nitpick them to death, but without knowing for sure, you can only guess.

There's been many trans people at my support group who I thought would never pass visually just by looking at them, who in fact never get questioned in real life.

This is why I'm so adamantly against those who say that trans women "never" pass. BS. Even I have a hard time clocking people even though I know exactly what to look for. (My therapist even laughed at me when I told her about 'brow bossing' and all of these other trans signifiers that I was worried that I had, saying "Carrie, people aren't that observant. I think it's fascinating that you know all of these things, but I never knew about them until you taught me about it. Everyone else just takes people at face value.")

I have seen several- how to put it? I would suspect they were transladies anyway...

I just have an eye for detail anyway though, I wouldn't put too much value on my clocking anything. I just study the person until I figure out what exactly was so interesting in the first place. In the case of transwomen, it's usually because they're really thin and have zero visible breasts but like the last one I saw, have very beautiful hair up in a girl pony-tail or something. Unfortunately for the ladies, I'm not sure there's a quick cure to being thin with no breasts (uh, apart from forms...).

Well, I sometimes see a person and wonder if they are transgender because of certain features. Like, I saw a woman on the train and she was taller, had thinner lips, kind of rougher facial features. I wondered for a moment if she was transgender. But then I looked again and realized that I don't know and I will never know unless she were to tell me. My moms lips are as thin as hers, and I know women who are bigger. She was older so that could explain the roughness of her features, she looked like she smoked, which would age her face too. But after not too long I always realize that all I can ever do is assume, either way she is clearly a woman, cis or trans, and it is none of my business.

I have to wonder how many cis people get "clocked."

Quote from: birkin on August 07, 2014, 02:03:46 PM
I have to wonder how many cis people get "clocked."

Prolly some, especially butchy type women. But not always. You can be butch and femme, femme meaning pretty facial features. People generally clock trans women by the adam's apple. Luckily, I don't have one. Most of the trans women at my support group are pretty unpassable, but that's usually because of presentation or demeanor or facial hair. Most of 'em don't take hormones either. I don'tthink any of them like me very much. I'm pretty passable most of the time and only get clocked cause of facial hair but even then it's a toss up. Generally when I hear people clocking me it's two people arguing "that's a woman, I'm telling you." I can dress pretty boyish attimes. Trans women don't seem to like me in person and I swear it's the boobs. One women literally told me this. "Listen, bit¢h, not eveyone can have huge boobs like you." It leaves me jaded and feeling erased and isolated.

I think the reason trans women get clocked is a lack of effort on shortcomings whether they be voice, mannerisms, or this or that. The adma's apple can't be helped so that sucks, but eveything else can. Transtion is work. And presentation is everything. Work it. The thing I hate about people who know I'm trans is they will sometimes bring up peopel they clocked as trans and make fun of them and expect me to join in on the fun. Not while there. In restrospect. I guess it's because I dont suffer these things but I never know what to say. I usually say nothing. I never join in I can say that. I'd hate myself.

I always feel sad because usually, the ones I clock are the ones who don't take care of the hair on their heads, faces, and bodies.  In fact, seeing them actually spikes my dysphoria because I'm always afraid (as a big woman) that I'll be clocked just as easily as they are.

There's one poor girl I see scraping by downtown from time to time.  She is (or was) a student at my university and complained about how she was constantly getting clocked, but she made no attempt to keep her face, arms, and legs shaved and wore the same dress day in, day out and wouldn't hear any of it even when she asked for advice on how to pass more readily.  Last time I saw her, she was reading Tarot cards for bus money.

There was another girl who had a large bald spot and made no attempt to cover it.  Just seeing her made me terrified about trying to pass because I have a high hairline.  I haven't seen her in a while though and I don't know what's become of her.

The hair thing holds true in my case.  I now keep my hair obsessively shampooed and conditioned because if I let it go, I ALWAYS get clocked.

I have a degree of passing privilege, when I do see a sister not as fortunate (or not there yet in terms of presentation) far be it from me to judge. What I usually do instead is scan the surrounding public and notice that no one else seems to have noticed anyway, so I put the fact I've noticed her down to my knowledge of trans passing pitfalls. Usually, since no one seems to be noticing, I do try to see what is working for her.

I've certainly clocked more than my share of transpeople in public.  Sometimes it's painfully obvious, but I applaud each and every one of them who have the intestinal fortitude to present themselves to the world as they truly are. 

Just last weekend my wife and I were having lunch out and I noticed that the woman sitting next to me was also trans.  I mean, it was beyond obvious, but I admired the way that she carried herself.   

A couple of months ago we attended a fundraiser for Lambda Legal.  There were several women there that I had pegged as trans, but there were (as I found out later) at least four more that were absolutely unclockable.  A couple of them looked simply amazing.  I have also met a few at electrolysis that would never set off a transwoman's transdar in a million years.  Sometimes it's kind of funny when I get clocked in public by another transwoman, but nobody else seems to be on to us and we just have a private smile.  We should have a secret wink or something.

Another odd thing is that my wife has been called "t****y" to her face, and she's cis.

Interesting responses.

The reason I asked is because I remember on Wed sitting on the train a lady whom I suspected was trans was seated across to the left of me. I just looked up and caught her looking at me with wide curious eyes. It was fully occupied seating, nobody else was looking at me. It was so ironic. I am presenting andro wearing jeans and a white Kenneth Cole jean shirt, she was wearing a girly jeans outfit. I have a pretty good eye and was very sure she was trans but didn't think much and just went back to closing and resting my eyes. At the next local stop I looked up again and she was still staring at me. So I figured she's trying to clock me and maybe I should have returned the favor because I already knew.

So today I got to thinking, if you clock someone in public, do you fixate on all the negatives that got them clocked? When your eyes are casually scanning the CIS mob and you catch people who are trans then something about them must have made them stand out. It's only a short time frame, what else can you really fixate on other than the negatives that got them clocked? I can say "you look fabulous!" but the fact is they're not quite passing.

As for me, I'm sure if I was passing in spades, I wouldn't have received that 'study' by the other trans woman.

Personally I think it is utterly rude for a trans person to stare at another. Seriously, what was her problem?

To paraphrase a cliché "The first rule of being trans is to never out another trans person".

Most trans people I know are able to clock each other even if the general public has no clue, it's the little things.

The first thing I focus on is the reason(s) I noticed and then clocked the person and then I make a mental note to try to avoid those myself. The second thing I do is focus on what he/she does well so I can learn from it, obviously I'll do this courteously by glancing like any woman would check out another woman.

Note that I make a distinction between noticing and clocking, if someone dresses down and keeps a low profile they are much less likely to get noticed and hence clocked but in my books there is a difference.

Personally I don't care that much if people clock me, I have not been on hormones long enough to really pass without makeup and a wig but that does not stop me from living my life and if someone clocks me so be it, more trans visibility can only lead to better acceptance.

The first rule of trans club is that you do not talk about trans club.
The second rule of trans club is... you do NOT TALK ABOUT TRANS CLUB.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on August 07, 2014, 05:34:27 PM
The first rule of trans club is that you do not talk about trans club.
The second rule of trans club is... you do NOT TALK ABOUT TRANS CLUB.

There's a trans club?  Why am I always the last to know about these things? 

Oh, right, it must be because nobody ever talks about it. Never mind...

I don't worry about clocking other trans people myself. I am too busy living my life and shopping. I feel if you get to this point you are a little too obsessed about being trans.