Quote from: Felix on July 05, 2014, 03:38:21 AM
I'm sorry for being slow to respond.

Oh you're fine!

QuoteI feel that the biological characteristics of a transgender person and an intersex person are not different, and the medical differentiation is unnecessary and often harmful. There are demonstrable anatomic markers for both, and both involve a deviation from expected physical sex details.

This is what I have a problem with, I don't understand what the point of lumping them together is. Intersex conditions (the more appropriate term now is DSD which is appropriately descriptive, but anyway) as a rule, are conditions acquired from birth that predictably impair fertility and normal binary sexual development. That's the uniting factor of that label. Trans people almost always have a normal binary sexual development and are fertile, so they are biologically very different labels. IS issues are body-oriented issues. There are psychosocial symptoms of the body issues but that is because the body is ambiguous, not because it is mismatched. There is no IS condition that results in a fertile body of a consistently incongruent gender identity. Most IS people's mental gender identity matches which sex their body more closely represents. But trans issues focus on healthy bodies with mismatching identities. I hope that makes sense.

QuoteI've had this "desert island" discussion with a lot of people a lot of times, where we consider whether we would need to transition if there was no social input. I believe that my body would feel wrong to me even if I never met another human. I can't know that for sure, but it doesn't hurt anyone for me to feel that I am male and have always been male, and that that category is definable.

It is definable, but, do you think it should come as a package deal with "man?" How exactly does a male body connect to "he?" You know? Like, if your body just mismatches your brain, then shouldn't changing your body be enough? But, almost every trans person wants social recognition of an identity as well. I think it has to be partly a psychosocial issue. Again, nobody can really pull those apart, because being trans is not really clearly medically defined or understood yet. It's still primarily evaluated by therapists and reports of subjective experience. It's still in the DSM. It doesn't have a clear clinical picture or presentation or necessary set of symptoms. People with mental health issues could easily say they are trans when they are not, believing that they are, and there would be absolutely no way to tell the difference. You can't tell someone "you aren't trans" because the diagnostic criteria is "yes i am"

I think what everyone here is trying to say is that while trans issues may stem from body-mind incongruity rather than body ambiguity, our need for care is exactly the same as the need for care of someone like you.  I would argue that body dysporia is also (usually) condition present from birth, and certainly deeply ingrained in the brain's structure...when people use the phrase "gender identity", I'm very bothered by this because an identity is something you choose for yourself.  I don't identify as female (I identify as queer, but that's a whole different story), I AM (or should have been) female.  I have a hard time believing that this is a purely psychological issue when no other form of treatment besides transitioning has been proven to help people experiencing gender dysphoria.  Even if the diagnostic criteria are ambiguous, that would be no reason to deny people the care they medically require. 

The point everyone is trying to make is that gender dysphoria is, like any intersex condition, a medical condition that must be treated as such.  It is just as immutable, just as harmful, and just as painful. 

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on July 05, 2014, 11:50:12 PM
I think what everyone here is trying to say is that while trans issues may stem from body-mind incongruity rather than body ambiguity, our need for care is exactly the same as the need for care of someone [who is IS].

Need for care, but not the same care. Just like rabies is not a genetic autoimmune disorder, gender dysphoria is not an intersex condition. Trans people and IS people have different bodies and different treatment needs.

QuoteThe point everyone is trying to make is that gender dysphoria is, like any intersex condition, a medical condition that must be treated as such.  It is just as immutable, just as harmful, and just as painful.

It already is, and trans people have far better access to treatment than IS people already.

QuoteI AM (or should have been) female.

Not having an IS condition doesn't make this invalid. Nor would having an IS condition make it more valid!

QuoteAgain, nobody can really pull those apart, because being trans is not really clearly medically defined or understood yet. It's still primarily evaluated by therapists and reports of subjective experience. It's still in the DSM. It doesn't have a clear clinical picture or presentation or necessary set of symptoms. People with mental health issues could easily say they are trans when they are not, believing that they are, and there would be absolutely no way to tell the difference. You can't tell someone "you aren't trans" because the diagnostic criteria is "yes i am"

QuoteNeed for care, but not the same care. Just like rabies is not a genetic autoimmune disorder, gender dysphoria is not an intersex condition. Trans people and IS people have different bodies and different treatment needs.

How can you agree that trans isnt clearly medically defined yet, and still definitively say what trans is and isnt?

If its not medically defined yet, thats the end of it, the rest is simply speculation and theorizing. Its either scientifically understood or it isnt, you cant have both.

Please excuse my ignorance, but how is my access to care better than yours?  I've heard otherwise from so many sources (especially when it comes to insurance coverage), that I may be missing out on some crucial information.

Also-intersex people and transgender people both sometimes need HRT and SRS-so in a way, we do require similar care. 

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on July 06, 2014, 03:35:06 AM
Please excuse my ignorance, but how is my access to care better than yours?  I've heard otherwise from so many sources (especially when it comes to insurance coverage), that I may be missing out on some crucial information.

Also-intersex people and transgender people both sometimes need HRT and SRS-so in a way, we do require similar care.

Just to clarify, I am not dx'ed intersex. I identify as cis either way. I have talked to lots of IS people though and aware of their issues, and suffer from similar ones.

Access to care--how isn't trans care better than IS care?

-IS people frequently have their genitals mutilated as babies and children, with high rates of complications, and spend their childhood going thru reparative surgeries, speculative treatments for things like growth deficiency, treatments to induce or delay puberty, losing functioning gonads to fear of cancer risk, invasive medical studies and photography etc.
-IS people are often normalized to one sex or the other by doctors even when they have bodies that don't require treatment.
-IS issues are not well understood, frequently mismanaged and misdiagnosed, IS conditions are rare, there are few specialists or treatment centers catering to their needs and awareness among GPs and other medical staff is poor.
-IS do not have legal rights respecting their identities anyway in the case that they do not identify as cisgender
-There are no special legal recognitions for IS people who wish to reassign their gender later in life, they have to go through the same process as trans people anyway.

And trans care:

-Ultimately the only diagnostic criteria is a commitment to transition, treatment is elective
-Gender dysphoria is recognized as a medical problem legally and by most insurance companies.
-There are transgender clinics that specialize in treating trans people and offer sliding scale treatment to people without insurance.
-There are numerous gender therapists that cater to trans issues.
-SRS is routine and there are numerous surgeons that specialize in treating trans patients as well as all kinds of cosmetic surgeons.
-Being trans is far more common than being IS and is far easier and more consistent to treat with fewer complications, and so again, trans people enjoy greater awareness and better management of their issues.


I would not call this similar care. There can be overlap, but usually it's very different, and the overlap occurs for very different reasons.

Quote from: Olivia P on July 06, 2014, 02:54:49 AM
How can you agree that trans isnt clearly medically defined yet, and still definitively say what trans is and isnt?

If its not medically defined yet, thats the end of it, the rest is simply speculation and theorizing. Its either scientifically understood or it isnt, you cant have both.

It's kinda like how even if we don't fully understand the brain... we sure as heck know it's a different organ than the heart. They don't belong in the same group because their observable characteristics are different even if the mechanism is not understood.

Gender dysphoria is NOT recognized as a medical condition legally and covered by most insurance companies-what happy part of the world are you living in?  I'm fairly certain that you're mixed up here-it's intersex conditions that are recognized by the medical community and most insurance companies!  Intersex people do have legal rights, at least in america-nonelective surgery on infants is considered illegal, and they do not have to go through the same hoops that we do to obtain hormones and surgery.  I know this from people I've spoken with, from books I've read, and from insurance companies I've pleaded with to help pay for my transition...it's by no means easy for IS people either, but I'm not sure you have your facts straight.

Trans* care is not elective, not in the slightest.  You are not transgender yourself, and I don't think you are capable of understanding just how crucial it is for those of us who experience intense dysphoria.  For some, it is just as crucial as chemo for a cancer patient, a hip replacement for your grandmother, or morphine for a trauma patient.  Some of us literally cannot live without it, and when you call that care elective, it's slightly insulting.  I don't want this argument to go on, but I feel as if you have some very incorrect notions surrounding what it means to be transgender (even if you dabbled in it yourself), and the obstacles we face.

True gender equality will not exist until all gender barriers and separation are eliminated.
(1) All clothing must be unisex-gender neutral.
(2) Separate facilities must be eliminated: public restrooms, locker rooms, exercise facilities & clubs, etc.
(3) Segregated sports activities must be eliminated.
(4) Gender specific job classifications must be eliminated.
(5) Antything else that separates us based on gender must be eliminated.

My personal opinion is that homosexuality, intersex status, And gender variance are all biological manifestations of the same underlying principle expressed in different ways. Like it not, we all start out with the potential to be either sex, and excluding XXY/XO as long as everything proceeds normally we should end up as heterosexual people with sex/gender congruence. Obviously that doesn't happen; some of us are CAIS, some of us have mothers that may have been exposed to different substances at different times, other biological causes, etc. it's simply a multistep process potentially fraught with error and interference.

That doesn't mean we're defective, it simply means we have more in common than first appears to even us.

OK so intersex is a biolgical condition and ->-bleeped-<- is or could be consdered a psychological or psychiatric medical condition. The big thing is that can effect us and brings our quality of life down so both can be medical conditions and psychological conditions.

Both should be considered psyhiatric, psychological and biological medical conditions. Both can have tremendous impacts on both sides. Until we know the brain and each and every nueron and the way it is mapped who really knows if we have the wrong brain for our bodies or the wrong bodies for our brains or minds? Both can have deadly consequences in a psychological sense and that to me is unacceptable.

Being IS and being trans are two different things. They're similar in that gender transition is sometimes the "cure" for the underlying condition. But surely there is much more trans awareness. There is next to no intersex awareness and if you tell peeps you're intersex they look at you lke you're insane. Everyone knows what trans is. Everyone. I go to Mazzoni, so its care is great for both intersex and (well I guess the greart) for trans patients. But for all intents and purposes now, my IS condition is underlying and genital dysphoria is paramount. Not gender. Genital. I am a woman. I cant become what I already and have always been genetically. There is no gender dysphonia. Being feminine or womanly or whatnot comes as natural to me as breathing. I tried to change it and was highly unsuccessful.

But SP is right that IS conditions are not well understood and care is mismanaged. My mom ripped me from the hospital when I was three and stopped them from playing guinea pig with me ever again. I spend the better part of the first years of my life in the hospital. I don't like talking about my condition because I've heard it appropriated by others and I don't like that my condition is appropriated for whatever reason. It isn't fun. The one thing I hear around here is how great growing breasts is...well I started budding when I was 11 or so and it was not only not great, I was so horrified that I tried to hang myself. I knew what I was, but I hoped against hoped that I would turn into a guy and that never happened. Being IS isn't anything It just IS. HA! See what I did there!!! Anyhoo, even though there are similarities, they are not the same. I don't know nor can I comment on insurance. I go to Mazzoni and they don't accept my insurance. In any event, it's Medicaid and they won't be paying for crap no matter what, as it is crap insurance. I might as well have nothing.

The other thing is trans peeps kinda, but not really, choose (prolly not the right word) to transition or present or whatever. I never had a choice. (When I say choice I mean my body decided to become really womanly on its own. I like HRT and all but didn't need it per se and I only ever thought about genital realignment to make me whole again. I used to watch Quantum Leap like when I was seven or whatever and I thought sam would leap into my doctor's life and stop them from making a horrible, terrible, no good, awful mistake.) By the time I was 15, it was obvious that I was much different from other boys, mainly that I wasn't really one. But then I wasn't a girl either. It's a sucky state that you can't really fathom unless you've been there.

I hate saying this because I feel like I am minimizing the trans condition and I certainly am not and have nothing but sympathy and like I said there are many similarities. I don't know Im going to shut up b4 I get yelled at again.

@joanna

It's whatever I'm just not gonna bother with people making up stuff about IS conditions when they don't even know what those conditions are or how those people struggle. It's a waste of everyone's time, it's stressful as heck b/c i actually care about people and I'm done getting bullied over it by people who don't know the first thing about me. The way trans people bully people into agreement who they don't even listen to in the first place is proof enough that there's some major psychological influence to their beliefs about themselves and their gender issues. I'm just tired of so many trans people wanting to tack on the IS label when they haven't even taken the time to understand it. They're so greedy for any ounce of extra validitation (when it is only validating in their own head) that they just impose this fantasy on people and bark louder when they don't agree. Meanwhile, some cis IS girl somewhere out there is getting her clit chopped off by a doctor cuz it's "too big." Some guy is in adrenal crisis and dying cuz nobody knew what to do with his undiagnosed CAH. But oh, gender is fun, labels are fun. Let's all collect some more meaningless labels.

Quote from: sad panda on July 07, 2014, 05:49:00 AM
@joanna

It's whatever I'm just not gonna bother with people making up stuff about IS conditions when they don't even know what those conditions are or how those people struggle. It's a waste of everyone's time, it's stressful as heck b/c i actually care about people and I'm done getting bullied over it by people who don't know the first thing about me.... Meanwhile, some cis IS girl somewhere out there is getting her clit chopped off by a doctor cuz it's "too big." Some guy is in adrenal crisis and dying cuz nobody knew what to do with his undiagnosed CAH. But oh, gender is fun, labels are fun. Let's all collect some more meaningless labels.

Sad Panda

Powerful statement.  I am still reeling.

Really appreciate every poster's contribution.  You have really made me think.

Aisla

Being IS myself (and yes, I can prove it so you know I'm not taking a label) I can certainly attest growing up IS is far from fun, far from any "validation," and very very far from easy. I won't repeat other posts of mine but I've been down the suicide highway myself more than once over it.

Panda, I agree, some very powerful words in your last reply. In fact, I really can't add anything because my having read through this entire thread, anything I would add has already been said. Therefore, I can only add that I would have certainly preferred to have been born with normal genitals either male or female regardless of my trans status, than being born incomplete somewhere between the two as I was. At least most, and I'm only saying most, not all, trans people who aren't IS are able to have some stability in their lives before their dysphoria becomes too intolerant and they have to transition. Some even build a life, have kids. Those of us who are IS don't get that chance.

I'll  leave that there before I become too emotional. Panda, Joanna, thanks for your words in this thread.

Ally

Even if you accept the premise that intersex and trans are meaningfully separate conditions, you have to understand that many people are varying degrees of both. Genitalia that looks ambiguous to one doctor may not to the next, and secondary sexual characteristics can manifest in surprising ways in different people, and gendered feelings and behavior are both on a spectrum and often greatly complicated by the appearance of one's body. I still see enough similarities in the two groups that I find the rigid categorization a little odd. The needs and interests of both trans and IS people coincide a lot, so you'd think we'd be more in touch with each others' communities at the very least.

I was not diagnosed as intersex when I was born but I had the condition "androgenisation" written on my birth records. My genitals came out looking ambiguous (enlarged clitoris) and the doctors were deciding whether or not to "correct" it, thankfully, they decided against it. When my psychiatrist started hearing this story, he looked like he was having a mini-heart attack and sighed in relief when he heard they decided against correcting it. He explained that there have been many complaints and people ended up suing their doctors for modifying their genitals at such a young age.

Having an enlarged clitoris led me to believe I would grow up as a boy because I experienced an erection, I thought I could urinate standing up like my father - when it didn't work, I simply told myself that my body would eventually fix itself. Imagine my horror when puberty came along and my mother explaining to me that I would be entering womanhood. Up until then, it hadn't actually registered to me that I have a vagina.

I don't have a binary gender identity but I can't help but wonder how different things could have been if it had been "corrected"... would I have been happy as a cisgender girl? Or would I have felt like something's missing?

Quote from: EchelonHunt on August 02, 2014, 03:56:28 AM
I was not diagnosed as intersex when I was born but I had the condition "androgenisation" written on my birth records. My genitals came out looking ambiguous (enlarged clitoris) and the doctors were deciding whether or not to "correct" it, thankfully, they decided against it. When my psychiatrist started hearing this story, he looked like he was having a mini-heart attack and sighed in relief when he heard they decided against correcting it. He explained that there have been many complaints and people ended up suing their doctors for modifying their genitals at such a young age.

Having an enlarged clitoris led me to believe I would grow up as a boy because I experienced an erection, I thought I could urinate standing up like my father - when it didn't work, I simply told myself that my body would eventually fix itself. Imagine my horror when puberty came along and my mother explaining to me that I would be entering womanhood. Up until then, it hadn't actually registered to me that I have a vagina.

I don't have a binary gender identity but I can't help but wonder how different things could have been if it had been "corrected"... would I have been happy as a cisgender girl? Or would I have felt like something's missing?

Corrective genital surgeries should never be performed on infants unless they are unable to urinate due to their condition. There is absolutely nothing wrong about having an enlarged clitoris.

Quote from: Felix on August 02, 2014, 02:33:35 AM
The needs and interests of both trans and IS people coincide a lot, so you'd think we'd be more in touch with each others' communities at the very least.

I'm IS/Trans Female and I do agree with this statement. Some though think that combining our two, er, well, communities would sort of muddy the waters, as it were.

Allie

Quote from: sad panda on June 12, 2014, 10:08:30 PM
There will not be gender equality until there are no genders... 

...this is literally what TERFs claim to believe just so you know.

I think we can achieve anything with resilience and a positive attitude. The moment we become hostile and demanding is when people really don't care to take us seriously. Will we achieve total gender equality in our lifetime? That might be too ambitious, but all great changes in history started somewhere. If we carry the torch today with peaceful and passionate determination then those who come after us may only have to carry it for a little while. If we visualise that very day where equality is no longer a battle, and be shining examples of love, then together we will co-create that reality.