Jessica.  Perhaps you are not familiar with this case.  When Mike/Christine originally 'came out' and transitioned, the TG community rallied around him/her and promoted his/her case as a shining example of the WPATH SOC's.

My take on this whole debacle was that this individual was essentially 'pushed', (enabled) by an adoring community that saw his public transition as a tremendous success story extolling the benefits of public transition.  Sadly it blew up in their faces and Mike/Christine was the unfortunate victim.

From Wikipedia:

"...Penner also began writing about transsexual identity and the process of gender transition from an autobiographical perspective. The first such piece he wrote for the Times was an essay entitled "Old Mike, New Christine" that appeared in the paper in April 2007. In it, he wrote about his lifelong struggle to come to terms with his transsexuality:

I am a transsexual sportswriter. It has taken more than 40 years, a million tears and hundreds of hours of soul-wrenching therapy for me to work up the courage to type those words. ... When you reach the point when one gender causes heartache and unbearable discomfort, and the other brings more joy and fulfillment than you ever imagined possible, it shouldn't take two tons of bricks to fall in order to know what to do.[4]..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Penner

^That was a case of a broken heart.

This happens a LOT in the trans community... people lose spouses and children due to transition, and basically they don't realize what they had until it was gone. And they fall apart when they lose their intimate social network.

If you'd like to see another telling statistic, how about this one?

In a 2012 study of 433 trans youth, (http://transpulseproject.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Impacts-of-Strong-Parental-Support-for-Trans-Youth-vFINAL.pdf) 75% of trans individuals with unsupportive or somewhat supportive familes exhibited symptoms of depression, compared to only 23% of those with highly supportive families. And 57% of those without family support attempted suicide, compared to only 4% of those with support.

The issue in so many of these regret cases, and cases where people kill themselves, isn't being trans itself, it's the social rejection and stigmatization that goes along with it.

(Side note: is there any particular reason why you seem to be transfixing on these negative outcomes so much? )



Also, you asked me to provide where in the OP's linked study it talked about the difference between the 1973-1988 crowd and the 1989-2003 crowd. Here it is: (Direct quotes from the study:)

"Table 2 separately lists the outcomes depending on when sex reassignment was performed: during the period 1973-1988 or 1989–2003. Even though the overall mortality was increased across both time periods, it did not reach statistical significance for the period 1989–2003."

"In line with the increased mortality from suicide, sex-reassigned individuals were also at a higher risk for suicide attempts, though this was not statistically significant for the time period 1989–2003."

"Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment (Table 2); this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989."

"In accordance, the overall mortality rate was only significantly increased for the group operated before 1989. However, the latter might also be explained by improved health care for transsexual persons during 1990s, along with altered societal attitudes towards persons with different gender expressions.[35]"

Hi Carrie.  Your 'broken heart' theory sounds like a good one, although it might be just a bit of an oversimplification of a very complex combination of factors.  "Broken Hearts" is the stuff of legend and pop-culture.  I am sure most everyone here has suffered from a 'broken heart' ay least once in their life and most likely more than once.

Nevertheless your point about family support is a good one.  No one can really say what caused Mike to de-transition and then end his own life, but I am guessing that it went way beyond "just" a broken heart.  I have my own thoughts on that, but I feel constrained about sharing them seeing that I have been warned about exploring 'forbidden' topics which might be 'triggering' or 'offensive' to the delicate sensibilities of some.

I am still on the "watched" list but I will risk being so bold as to suggest that I think it IMHO does a huge disservice to the trans* community to be so unconditionally "supportive" at the risk of enabling potentially harmful behavior as might well have been the case in the sad and tragic passing of Mike Penner/Christine Daniels.

I do not see my bringing up this case on a thread about " High Suicide Rates & Other Things Among Post-op Transsexuals" as necessarily "transfixing on these negative outcomes".  Rather I see taking a candid unbiased look at them as a possible learning experience on what might have gone wrong.

Quote from: Susan522 on August 18, 2014, 10:46:54 PM
I am still on the "watched" list but I will risk being so bold as to suggest that I think it IMHO does a huge disservice to the trans* community to be so unconditionally "supportive" at the risk of enabling potentially harmful behavior as might well have been the case in the sad and tragic passing of Mike Penner/Christine Daniels.

We give people support, guidance and information. Many more than not have taken our support and made successful transitions. Are you seriously advocating not supporting scared people in their time of need some without any support at home and acceptance without strings attached? What people do with the information gathered at places like this is their business. I would be no where close to where I am without this fine community who took me in unconditionally, supported me and helped me make good decisions based on their lives experiences. Blaming support systems for people's decisions (right or wrong) is not a good precedent to set. People have to ability to say no and should even if pressured if it is not right for them. I do not know anyone here who is twisting arms to get people to transition. 

"Are you seriously advocating not supporting scared people in their time of need some without any support at home and acceptance without strings attached"

Absolutely NOT!  I find it somewhat disconcerting that you would make such a distasteful and ignorant suggestion, just to make some points.  It should be more than obvious that the point I am trying to make is that unconditional 'support"of an individual's action is not without risk.

I am just suggesting that caution is the greater part of valor and that this individual, despite (apparently) adhering to the SOC's,  misjudged their own condition and seemed to lack sufficient situational awareness to understand the consequences of their actions.

Honestly.  I WATCHED THIS as it evolved in real time and it was viscerally devastating.  I could see the train coming down the tracks and everybody just dancing to the music.  I cannot believe that I was the only one that saw this and if one looks closely into events and the post mortem observations of those closely involved it becomes apparent  that this tragedy in the making was clear for all to see yet, EVERYONE stood silently by.

Why was that?

Quote from: Susan522 on August 18, 2014, 10:46:54 PM
I think it IMHO does a huge disservice to the trans* community to be so unconditionally "supportive" at the risk of enabling potentially harmful behavior as might well have been the case in the sad and tragic passing of Mike Penner/Christine Daniels.

After this I was merely asking if it was your opinion that supporting individuals was not proper, nothing else.

Of course I agree that "support" is important.  It is just my position that this "support" should not entail some Pollyannaish enabling which ignores the brutal realities of transition.  Nor am I suggesting that (for the most part), that is happening on this forum.

The following link is triggering but might provide some insight.  http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/27/local/la-me-sportswriter27-2010mar27/3

Quote from: Susan522 on August 19, 2014, 12:38:33 AM
Of course I agree that "support" is important.  It is just my position that this "support" should not entail some Pollyannaish enabling which ignores the brutal realities of transition. 

That's fine, but please make the point without calling other forum members ignorant.

Just going to cool this thread down a bit folks...
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