Still not having any idea as to how to post a link between Susan's forum posts I felt it necessary to repost my response to the title of this thread on the MtF forum "could you be satisfied just being androgynous rather than full time dress and all" I felt the way the topic was worded is somewhat overtly denigrating toward those of us non-binary and or androgynous types and it as usual intimates that we are somewhat lesser in their esteem for not fitting into one of the two binary boxes. Not wanting to lash out over feeling that we are being slighted I offered the following with the general gist of it also applicable to those female born who may prefer a more masculine presentation due to their internal hardwiring:

As a full-time androgynous person I relate well to everyone and don't catch any BS from anyone ever. At the same time I am vicariously involved in the female realm in many ways and am able to step in and out of it at will rather than being stuck in any one mode full time. The reason this works so well is that there came a time when I realized that I didn't wish to go through all the hoops of buying an extensive wardrobe and continually having to cull things out and update it along with all the purses, shoes and matching accessories, have my hair professionally done and colored on schedule and have to put on and take off makeup day in and day out just to try and be successful and fit into the cis women's world. Then I knew that though most males sometimes will never clock me because all they look at is boobs and asses, that women who are ten times more discerning will and their level of acceptance will only be outward but inwardly they will think otherwise and whisper those thoughts to other women, don't kid yourselves about this!

Having carefully weighed all of this plus the probability of losing my wife and family in the process it occurred to me that it would be a losing proposition, for that reason I put on the brakes after my orchiectomy and said enough! I am so happy I did, because I have learned how to just be myself and enjoy every aspect of my life having lost nothing in the process. I have a few male friends who stuck with me and many female friends that I associate with. Why would I trade that just to have a vagina? For me the trade off would be positively asinine so really I shouldn't have to explain and defend my decision to anyone! There are many more who are beginning to think the way I do, so more power to the full-time trans women but you'll have to get over the fact that there are those of us who think differently and it's OK.

Sorry Shan. It is terrible anyone here should have to defend or justify their decisions here. I myself have been trying to learn more about non binary, androgyn, etc. so I do not make mistakes in terminology, etc. myself. 

I just wanted to say I think you're awesome, Auntie Shan, and I would never think lesser of non-binary people. In a lot of ways I relate far more to them than I do other MTFs.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 23, 2014, 02:19:30 PM
Sorry Shan. It is terrible anyone here should have to defend or justify their decisions here. I myself have been trying to learn more about non binary, androgyn, etc. so I do not make mistakes in terminology, etc. myself. 

Your so cool with me Jessica! I am not very thin skinned about terminology (Him, Her, It) it really doesn't matter to me like it does some, but I do feel that I should stand in the gap for others who are not so disposed to dismiss it like I normally do and tend to be hurt when their self images are being tarnished by the "elite " of the binary trans people's subtly disparaging opinions and attitudes. I felt like putting my foot down on that stuff.

You go Shan!!! 

Thanks for posting this, Shantel. I think a lot of people feel the same way.

Good to understand too, that someone can be non-binary in presentation, identity, or both. I present female but I have a non-binary identity. Sometimes I think it might be the opposite with you - you have a female soul but don't want to live 100% as a female because of the complications involved.

I've carefully stayed out of that thread as it brings up an old issue I've had.
In my 20 years of on and off again relationship with the trans community online, there's always been one subtle undercurrent.

"You're not trans enough" "You're not really trans"

Simply because one hasn't gone all the way.
There can be a failure on the part of the community to acknowledge that degree of dysphoria can vary.
There is also the subconscious subtext of bragging rights - "I'm further along than you so boo hoo to you" - which I find ironically male.

Sometime I wonder why I stick around.  I'm essentially done for all intents and purposes, unless I opt to go through full binary transition which I've already prepared for.

Then I remember there are those who are non binary and questioning.  They do need to know that binary transition isn't the be all and end all.  I'm still around for this reason, even though it's tiring to explain oneself over and over.

Shan, it's amazing you manage to fit in so well here over the whole forum.  I've always felt like the odd duck in these places. 

Shan

I agree with, but am disappointed that your post was needed.  Given that most trans* know what it feels like to be criticised, invalidated and ridiculed by cis folk, I am continually disappointed at how often insecurity and binarism turns the community against itself

In most cases these comments are made without intent to cause hurt or offence, but this is really no excuse.

More care and more respect will minimise the risk that the quite reasonable binary desire to belong, and to feel 'normal' does not disenfranchise or hurt non binary brothers and sisters.

Safe travels

Aisla

Quote from: suzifrommd on August 23, 2014, 03:07:07 PM
Thanks for posting this, Shantel. I think a lot of people feel the same way.

Good to understand too, that someone can be non-binary in presentation, identity, or both. I present female but I have a non-binary identity. Sometimes I think it might be the opposite with you - you have a female soul but don't want to live 100% as a female because of the complications involved.

I dunno, maybe who knows! Some things aren't worth cogitating on for too long, it just causes unnecessary trouble.

Quote from: luna nyan on August 23, 2014, 04:59:14 PM
I've carefully stayed out of that thread as it brings up an old issue I've had.
In my 20 years of on and off again relationship with the trans community online, there's always been one subtle undercurrent.

"You're not trans enough" "You're not really trans"

Simply because one hasn't gone all the way.
There can be a failure on the part of the community to acknowledge that degree of dysphoria can vary.
There is also the subconscious subtext of bragging rights - "I'm further along than you so boo hoo to you" - which I find ironically male.

Sometime I wonder why I stick around.  I'm essentially done for all intents and purposes, unless I opt to go through full binary transition which I've already prepared for.

Then I remember there are those who are non binary and questioning.  They do need to know that binary transition isn't the be all and end all.  I'm still around for this reason, even though it's tiring to explain oneself over and over.

Shan, it's amazing you manage to fit in so well here over the whole forum.  I've always felt like the odd duck in these places. 

Yes you are so right and to be honest I know the OP didn't have those intent's when she posted it, she's not like that, but it was a poorly worded question in the first place probably more out of innocence than any perceived malice, but I could see the usual suspects were going to start in and I thought for the sake of us that I should respond and nip it in the bud.

I fit in because I want to care for everyone and I hate cliques and want us all to be inclusive with one another, and those that refuse will be shown how embarrassing they can be to themselves.

   Hi Shan great post and it does really bring out some issues.You probably saw my original post on the first thread  in which I said NEVER and that is the truth.I cannot dress as a male or somewhere in between for any length of time my mind will not tolerate it --- it is foreign to me.I can however tolerate it when in work clothes or something of that nature for the day as long as I see something feminine about me.You seen my cowpatty picture it was funny and I could tolerate the clothes I was wearing because if you looked at the picture you could see the hand feeding the bull my fingernails were painted  pink.Small thing but it works for me and keeps my mind happy and that is what counts.Otherwise I lean strongly to the non binary in my feelings not really one or the other but somewhere in the middle I just have to feed my mind what it wants to see besides chocolate.   Cow Patty    We are all different shades of grey. 

Shan,

Thank you for doing so.  Heaven knows I don't have the energy or stomach for playing peacemaker here.  I do enough of that offline.

The little subtle digs that one encounters can be wearing.  A paper cut isn't much, but a thousand of them can still cause grievous harm. 

A few threads on the forums recently have been vitriolic.  Sometimes unnecessarily so.  Human nature at its best I suppose.

The non-binary folk have my support and admiration 100%!

I'm not as educated as I'd like to be about non-binary and androgynous people but I'm open to learn and see nothing wrong with it. Every single person is different and no one has to fit perfectly in a category, I accept people for who they are. ^.^

The most ironical part is that we do understand them much better than they do understand us.

Everyone is welcome here at Susan's Place and has the right to self identify with any group they wish to identify with

Quote from: V M on August 24, 2014, 03:51:47 AM
Everyone is welcome here at Susan's Place and has the right to self identify with any group they wish to identify with

Great!  I can finally publicly admit that I self-identify as monster.  A group that includes Quasimodo, Frankenstein's monster (who IIRC wasn't even granted a name   ), Cookie Monster, and Oscar (see avatar.)  Grawp is technically not a monster, being a giant-human mix, but since both groups reject him, I'm proposing giving him honorary membership.

Are you forgetting the big fuzzy one in monsters Inc?  Fuzzy fuzzy....

Good thread for me with good responses

--how much do we allow ourselves to be put down by pride from fully transitioned binarists

--how come we get them but they don't get us

-- how do we keep the peace

-- the examplary binary trans within their forums with their unconditional support and love for those of us that are NB

-- the sickness of "your not trans enough" and the poison in that that can drive away essential people of the forum that make a difference in others lives.

Not much to say except this- Shantel's story enabled me to dare the forest, Justpatty is a friend indeed that has held me together many times and she is a female trapped in a now changing body, never ever doing anything but accepting me as me,  Jess has had nothing but love and support for me even though we have an ongoing bet I think about the endgame of my transition...and I love her for it.

And there is no place, absolutely no place, on this forum for anyone to put down another trans for their self perception of their own unique gender identity.  It is forbidden, it is taboo, and it hurts the entire community of trans.  It is evil.  I want no part in it.

It is hard for the binaries to understand mixed gender.  It is hard for us to understand why they are so completely binary.  Big deal.  And some binaries truly hate their birth gender and it subtly drives them to do stupid things and say stupid things to others that are NB.  Not their fault, it is a product of the pain of dysphoria.  Others have paid so high a price for thier full time identities the the idea that they could have made a mistake could send them to suicide or the wards.  So they act out.

The pain of dysphoria does not allow us to criticize others, unnecessarily.  We can present the non binary view, if it is not threatening, to those receptive.  We need to unconditionally love those who are not.

So we turn the other cheek, we rise above the foolishness, but we do not allow ourselves to be pushed around either, for the first rule is respect the other trans and their identity, throw no stones, and live in a strong place where love will triumph.  if you  do not correct a child, you do them harm.  But the correction is not necessarily to get them to accept something they cannot accept in themselves, but to stop their harmful behavior, something the admins in here do a very good job of, and our warriors guard in the forest.

That is my take on it, I hope it does not sound like of pride or of telling others what to do.  I see red when a trans criticizes another trans.  Didn't we suffer enough from the Cis already?  For heavens sake.  Lose the cattiness girls, whether you are binary or not, smell the coffee, dine with us and celebrate life.

Blessings.

Quote from: Satinjoy on August 25, 2014, 06:12:11 AM
It is hard for the binaries to understand mixed gender.  It is hard for us to understand why they are so completely binary.  Big deal.  And some binaries truly hate their birth gender and it subtly drives them to do stupid things and say stupid things to others that are NB.  Not their fault, it is a product of the pain of dysphoria.  Others have paid so high a price for thier full time identities the the idea that they could have made a mistake could send them to suicide or the wards.  So they act out.

The pain of dysphoria does not allow us to criticize others, unnecessarily.  We can present the non binary view, if it is not threatening, to those receptive.  We need to unconditionally love those who are not.

Good points.

But having the same issue raised 20 years later...  As I said before, as someone who's been in the TG community online for a long time.  (Irc, mailing lists, blogs and forums - so many defunct ones now, and now here) - it surprising how little the community has changed, except for the great increase in young transitoners.

Fortunately, general society has changed, and is more accepting of transgender, even though they don't really understand...

All I know is that if they piss you off and you leave, my rage will be beyond your wildest dreams.

We need you Luna.