Quote from: Asche on August 24, 2014, 05:08:26 PM
how do people who choose to live as non-binary manage their social role, given that, in our society, almost all social interactions involve protocols that depend on the genders of the people involved?

I reject those protocols and live by my own.
If society can't keep up with that, it's their problem.
Societies protocols are nothing more than imaginary and as such, I recognize as one that I do not have to participate in.
Ativan

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 25, 2014, 11:59:40 AM
I reject those protocols and live by my own.
If society can't keep up with that, it's their problem.
Societies protocols are nothing more than imaginary and as such, I recognize as one that I do not have to participate in.
Ativan

Neither did I which brings to mind the song lyric, "Under my thumb!"

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 25, 2014, 11:59:40 AM
Societies protocols are nothing more than imaginary and as such, I recognize as one that I do not have to participate in.

One word: Awesome.

Roles associated with gender is a social construction which did not exist before "society" came about.

Non binary to me means we do not buy into the idea that we have to be all male or all female. 

I have no desire for surgeries, yet my estrogen levels are quite deliberately through the ceiling, based on my endo taking full control and not liking my previous numbers.  Yet I am fully non binary, and fully mtf, almost a contradiction walking around.  Its totally unique.  It's totally necessary, the pain of my physical dysphoria from the neck down is awful.  And getting better a year and a half into this.

So, no FTE, no surgeries, no loss of the life I lived, just a socially softened presentation with nails and a face peering out of the mask that if you look close enough will be obviously female.

Is it static?  Probably, due to collateral damage that would come on transition... but I still don't feel like socially presenting transitioned.  That is for quiet times.  My presentation is fluid, whatever I feel comfortable with and in, within the social context I am dealing with.  No acts, just natural feel comfortable stuff.

But the hormones?  Crucial.  The hormone letter?  It says I do not fit a traditional transsexual diagnosis.   And on HRT, my endo system is all girl now, and it will stay that way.

So we are unique, our needs are varied, and for the NB's, we need really smart therapists that can figure out how to help us the most.

Society?  Didn't they screw my head totally up?  50 years of unnecessary pain?    GGGGRRRRRRR.

Nails out, hair waiting at home, heart wide open.

Quote from: Satinjoy on August 26, 2014, 11:01:48 AM
Non binary to me means we do not buy into the idea that we have to be all male or all female. 

I'd put it another way. It's not that we don't buy in - it's that we don't consider ourselves on the binary.

Well said, and subtly revealing.  Wonder who I think is trying to sell me on it - binarism - maybe goes back to very old hurts from the cisworld, and fear of believing complete transition is inevitable after I hit the wall, which I used to believe, and no longer do.  And that one came from my own dysphoria, I think, and the odds of full transitioning.  The non binary wildcard changes those odds.  IMO.

Something to think about.  Roots to examine.  Something tied to either a resentment or a fear, useless baggage to carry.

The power in a word.

I guess the bottom line is that we can get what we need, although I wonder about the surgical part for some.  My shrink won't sign off on srs... but that's tied to me, he thinks I'd regret it.  I trust him.

Blessings, thanks for that correction, that insight.

--SJ

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 23, 2014, 01:18:29 AM
This is a serious question, so please don't jump me. I am trying to understand non binaries.

What decides which way and to what extreme a medical transition is done by a non binary person? Is it Dysphoria, social construct, body image or what? 

My decision was because I became so disgusted with the female figure that was overpowering my prepubescent body ever since it began to change. I did everything that I could to hide the extra bits. The other parts such as the widening of the hips went somewhat unnoticed because I was so overwhelmed with having breasts... I loathe EVERYTHING about the female body so I guess it's the body image.

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 25, 2014, 11:59:40 AM
I reject those protocols and live by my own.
If society can't keep up with that, it's their problem.
Societies protocols are nothing more than imaginary and as such, I recognize as one that I do not have to participate in.
Ativan

Well, if you need to "go"  in a place with only "men's" and "women's" bathrooms, you're going to have to choose one or the other.  And if society thinks you've chosen the wrong one, they usually make it your problem.  (There's a whole forum on the subject.)

But I was thinking more of more subtle things.  People interact with you differently depending on whether they think you're male or female, and there are a lot of behaviors that will be read very differently depending upon whether they think you're male or female.  Explaining to them that you're non-binary, or neither male nor female isn't likely to help, since most people aren't consciously aware that your gender affects how they understand and respond to you.  It's less of an issue when you're young, e.g., in University, but when you're older and need to build good relationships with co-workers or clients, or settle down somewhere and have children and want to get along with your neighbors and develop a social circle for yourself and your family, doing stuff that gets taken the wrong way can make things pretty uncomfortable for a long time.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 23, 2014, 01:18:29 AM
This is a serious question, so please don't jump me. I am trying to understand non binaries.

What decides which way and to what extreme a medical transition is done by a non binary person? Is it Dysphoria, social construct, body image or what? 

I could give you all sorts of flowery language in which to couch the truth. But here's what did it for me:

1. I went on HRT because I've wanted to know all my adult life what it felt like to have breasts. This was such a powerful drive that I was willing to go down that one way road to find out. (And I'm not disappointed...)

2. I underwent SRS chiefly because I've wanted to know all my adult life what it felt like to have a female bottom. Once more, it was such a powerful drive, that I was willing to go down the one way road. (So far, I really, really like it  )

Quote from: Asche on August 26, 2014, 05:30:38 PM
Well, if you need to "go"  in a place with only "men's" and "women's" bathrooms, you're going to have to choose one or the other.  And if society thinks you've chosen the wrong one, they usually make it your problem.  (There's a whole forum on the subject.)

But I was thinking more of more subtle things.  People interact with you differently depending on whether they think you're male or female, and there are a lot of behaviors that will be read very differently depending upon whether they think you're male or female.  Explaining to them that you're non-binary, or neither male nor female isn't likely to help, since most people aren't consciously aware that your gender affects how they understand and respond to you.  It's less of an issue when you're young, e.g., in University, but when you're older and need to build good relationships with co-workers or clients, or settle down somewhere and have children and want to get along with your neighbors and develop a social circle for yourself and your family, doing stuff that gets taken the wrong way can make things pretty uncomfortable for a long time.

I'm a newbie and don't present as non-binary yet, but this is something I've thought about.

When it comes to matters of medical necessity or sexual intercourse, I'll give people my birth sex. Otherwise, in daily situations, I'll let other people place me in the box they think suits me best. Since I'm both male and female, I can't be misgendered. That's how I see it, anyway. I want people to judge me as a person, not as a gender, so I won't bring it up. I'll wait for them to do that, and give them as long or short an explanation as the situation calls for.

I guess the one exception to that is whatever schools or daycares my daughter goes to, since I will always be "mom" in my head. And to her, I hope. She's too young for me to know how I'll be treated (as a freak/predator? people involved in childcare can be paranoid), but I wanted to homeschool her anyway, so maybe I won't have to deal with that too much.

I'm probably going to avoid bathrooms or use the family restroom when in public...

Well I fully medically transitioned four years ago and did for a while consider myself as a binary woman. For me transition was all about my physical reality, in terms of gender identity I am starting to question things, I don't really identify with being a woman, though obviously being female bodied is a key part of my identity (I still carry a great sadness in me about not being able to be pregnant and have children) and I'm trying figure out if I identify as female as well. I've started thinking of myself as a queer grrrl, which recognises that I am kind of on the feminine spectrum, but not really a binary woman.

There is also the fact that, due to the lack of understanding of non-binary identities within the medical profession, if you strongly identify with certain aspects of the opposite gender, it can be simpler to play at being binary until it's all done and then just quietly go back to your preferred presentation after it's all done.