Quote from: Paige on August 27, 2014, 10:59:53 PM
Evelyn so all the happy times I spent with my family were a waste of my wife's time.  All the things we accomplished together a waste?  Raising healthy, happy children, a waste?  Marriage isn't reaching the finish line, it's the process, the good and the bad.  If I ever decide to transition and she doesn't want to be with me anymore, that doesn't negate everything that came before.

I think you're just a tad too black and white with your pronouncement.  Try to realize there's a lot of gray in this world.

Take care,
Paige 

Might not be a complete waste (you'll have to ask her), but if I was the wife, I would sure be devastated and angry about my family's uncertain future and having to start all over again. My hopes and dreams of creating some long term security, the emotional investment, raising my child in a functional family, attending my child's wedding as the mother and father of the bride, etc. etc. - dashed. It's no different from a spouse expiring or a divorce of transgressions. This is a surgical excision out of her life. There is only one person to blame.

To think otherwise is being selfish.

Action = Reaction.

Honestly, I wouldn't be happy if my hypothetical spouse came out as a transgender woman after years of marriage.  There is nothing wrong with being trans, but it would probably be a relationship ending factor for me.  Sexuality really isn't a choice, and the idea of being with a female romantically and sexually just isn't my thing.  So it would be hard if my husband of many years told me after so much commitment and time investment.  I'd likely remain their friend and help them with their transition, but the relationship wouldn't likely survive.  Although, this is all hypothetical, so who knows.

Despite my strong feeling on this, I do understand how hard it is to admit that one is trans.  It's something were taught to be ashamed of and people keep it hidden in the very depth of their souls because of this.  For this reason, I don't fault those that are in this situation.  I've kept my transgender status hidden from some of the most important peope in my life as well and know how difficult disclosure is.  It's a hard situation all around.

Evelyn,

A few points.

When someone posts here after coming out, and the SO is grieving and grieving, of course they are not going to be painted in a good light.  Very rarely is the best side of someone shown under severe duress.  And the response is just as likely to be coloured by the posters personal perceptions and biases.

Definitely, the reactions of SO are understandable - it's not what they signed on for.

The transitioning partner - often either didn't know they had an issue, or alternatively, thought it wasn't so much of an issue.

All I can say is its a terrible situation for all involved, even though the marriages were begun with the best of intentions.

Plenty of marriages fail for other reasons - would you have considered those marriages a waste of time as well?  Just wanting your opinion on relationships in general - it seems a bit black and white and I'm more used to a kaleidoscope.

It sounds to me that you feel like you're almost done here.  Your off the wall posts will be missed, but it's been an intersecting ride with you around. 

Evelyn, you clearly mean well, and it's appreciated, but... and I say this as gently as possible, trans people unequivocally telling SO's how to feel was NOT helpful to me back when I was struggling with this precise decision.  Supporting them in leaving is better than villainizing, but not by much if "support" meant "insisting they *should* leave regardless of their own desires." (Also, it's not the same as death; if my wife died tomorrow, I wouldn't think our time together was wasted!) I ended up horrifically depressed in part b/c of people telling me our life to date was a lie or a sham, etc. I tell people constantly that it's OK to leave if you can't handle it, but *it's also OK to stay,* even if some aspects of the story would have been dealbreakers for someone else. As another poster said, shades of gray are really important here, especially when it comes to trying to support someone in a fragile and unusual situation.

BTW, although it  may not come up often, not all SO's are women, either. In at least one support group I'm part of, the men have a hell of a time with the fact that this story is always assumed to be a trans woman with a cis woman.

I think a lot has due to with people trying to live perfectly fake lives. Sometimes, people only gain awareness they are transgender late in life. But I think this is rare. Unfortunately, most people try to pretend they have no issues at all, toss it over and bury them deep in their heart until there comes a point where they break and crush in.

They end up living their lives for other people, to gain acceptance and to meet other people's expectations so they get married, have kids... etc. And it goes on. Honestly I can understand completely how as a wife it's devastating to face such a reality, after all, the person they thought their husband was and they thought they knew is in fact someone completely different. Now just because someone's transitioning doesn't mean their whole personality will mutate, but that doesn't change the fact that partners are appalled at how little they actually knew of their partner. The mask falls and what once seemed like a real person with feelings and certain attitudes has now faded in to façade that is no longer being put up. And then the wife realizes their husband is a completely different person. They fell in love with a lie, think they. Past the phase where they are getting in touch with their partner's real feelings and intentions, they may come around or upon realizing their husband is in fact a really completely different person they fell in love with, divorce is almost inevitable. They can't handle it. I personally despite being transgender I probably couldn't either. And I would be shocked, sad, angry, divided at my husband if he told me after 30 years of marriage he was a woman inside. Now that doesn't mean I woudn't try to understand my husband's situation, but I would be crushed inside. And I would feel cheated that my husband didn't tell me earlier so we could cope with it in a different way, now having lived a whole life together would make things much harder. Especially when you have no clue at all they are, no hint, no nothing. I felt a lot of times wifes of transgender women are demonized here for not accepting the situation easily or making a decision to break it off, but honestly I don't see why, when their reactions are 100% understandable. Put yourself in her position. I know transwomen who are married have their side of the story too, but here on this topic we are mainly talking about their wifes and I feel their voices should be heard and more sympathy should be offered to them, they often end up feeling neglected. And honestly telling them you're trying to live as your true self doesn't help either because it reinforces their belief that all their lives you have showed a lie to her. That's why most marriages end, and frankly, is understandable. However, I completely feel transwomen's struggle and my heart goes out to them for doing the right thing even if it's late. But honestly think twice before you indulge yourself in a lie again. That's all I have to say.

Aurora : Thing is, in the years I've spent talking to and supporting SO's, very very few of them end up telling the "lived a lie before, is a completely different person under the mask" story. Most say that their spouse is in many ways the same; it's a question of whether some of what was critical to the marriage has changed, not the overall person. Most do not want to be told that their spouse will mutate totally during the transition process, no, but I personally also found it excruciatingly painful to be informed that my wife had been presenting a false personality to me all along and I had no idea who was living with me now. Sure, some trans people do change radically, but it doesn't seem to be nearly as common as it's made out to be.

(And yes, sometimes, spouse's orientation conflicts with the trans person's real gender. That's heartbreaking, and most of those relationships do end as romances, though there's a handful of SO's who can be flexible. However, many of the romances transform into deep friendships, which is still a blessing of sorts. I know quite a few spouses who have said they're grateful for the marriage because it left them with their best friend, even if both people are moving on into new romantic entanglements.)

I also don't think we can say with certainty that most relationships end, because as far as I know no data has actually been collected on this sort of thing. People who seek support groups are more likely to be in trouble, after all, so it's giving a misleading impression of how many SO's stick around. I never found any support of any kind, unfortunately, but now I admittedly show up in support groups to offer an example of a successful marriage. So I'm a rare contrary datapoint, but possibly more because I'm reaching out despite being happy in my marriage than because we're still together.

Quote from: blueconstancy on August 28, 2014, 07:39:40 AM
Aurora : Thing is, in the years I've spent talking to and supporting SO's, very very few of them end up telling the "lived a lie before, is a completely different person under the mask" story. Most say that their spouse is in many ways the same; it's a question of whether some of what was critical to the marriage has changed, not the overall person. Most do not want to be told that their spouse will mutate totally during the transition process, no, but I personally also found it excruciatingly painful to be informed that my wife had been presenting a false personality to me all along and I had no idea who was living with me now. Sure, some trans people do change radically, but it doesn't seem to be nearly as common as it's made out to be.

Actually I completely agree with you. But from the wife's point of view that doesn't happen. In fact, and especially if the husband is very butch, she thinks he will change considerably. She will change her outer presentation at least to match her inner gender, and so will her body. That's already a lot, especially considering sexual orientation. To ask of a partner to accept staying with someone's who a completely different person from the one they fell in love with is too much of to ask of anyone. And then there's sex life, it will necessarily have to change, the way their partners relate to each other will as well. The dynamics change considerably, even if the main core personality is the same. It's the equivalent to living a lie, if love ends. So I don't believe we should be punishing the wives for living genuine lives and for choosing not to say. Many may argue that who leave chose the easy way and do not want to deal with the problem. But it was never her problem to begin with. It's completely out of her control, it's not even a marriage problem. It's a personal identity issue only. It was the husband's, who should have been honest with himself from the beginning and face his underlying issues.

Sorry the wording choice was tricky when referring to MtF partners.

Quote from: Evelyn K on August 28, 2014, 02:00:34 AM
Yes Boo Stew, thanks for the neg. Maybe my empathy is 'deservingly' "sociopathic". I'm a women and can argue her side after all.

^^ Actually this is why I don't plan on sticking around here much after transition, as described in dis here fread. It's just a never ending stream of facepalms.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,171594.msg1508081.html#msg1508081

Touchy, touchy souls.
\

Evelyn you may be challenging people and opening useful discussions, and I respect that, but you certainly don't have to any right to be so casually cruel as when you suggested that such a relationship end with "a payout of some sort for wasting their life and time." As others have said that sort of black and white thinking ignores the myriad colors of a relationship that extend beyond the issues of ->-bleeped-<- and I find your comments and those that followed in poor taste.

Aurora : Let me spell this out. I AM a wife who stayed. Please, and I say this politely, don't tell me what's too much to ask of me, or what my experience with my spouse was like. That's exactly what I'm saying here - over and over, trans people are declaring that they know what it's like to be the SO, and then insisting that their narrative is the real one. Even when an *actual* SO is saying otherwise. You too mean well, but good grief.

Yes, the dynamics of our relationship changed. They also changed when we graduated college, and when I decided I didn't want kids, and when we both flat-out grew up. I like to say that the main difference is that things changed *faster* during transition; it was an accelerated roller-coaster ride. But she's 95% the same person personality-wise as before (the physical, of course, is a distinct issue).

Helen Boyd runs a private Yahoo group for SO's, and "is your spouse a completely different person, or even enough of one to invalidate the marriage" was a question asked recently. The majority of partners said no. Even the few who were leaving mostly said no; they said, in fact, that it turned out that a spouse who was selfish/childish/abusive etc. before was still like that during transition and they just couldn't take the one final straw. And all of them agreed that it's a marriage problem in the way that anything fundamental to one partner is a "marriage issue," at least up until the point where the marriage dissolves.

I do agree, of course, that punishing SO's (not all of whom are wives, or even married) is also unfair and unreasonable, and I appreciate the effort at support. It's good to have trans people who do tell SO's that it's all right to be angry and betrayed or be unable to make this work. The only distinction I'm drawing is between supporting an actual person saying that their decision is to leave, and insisting that all or most partners MUST leave. I feel bad for arguing with people who fundamentally want to be on my side, to be honest, but the fact remains that the narrative being repeated here caused me and others a great deal of pain.

Quote from: Evelyn K on August 27, 2014, 07:28:30 PM
It seems the prevailing thought around these parts is the SO who decides to leave due to your transitioning is somehow the villain.

I wouldn't put it that way.

I'd say that an SO who decides to stay is a HERO.

An SO who decides to leave is far from a villain, but certainly gives up a chance to be a hero.

IMO, anytime ANYONE leaves someone, for whatever reason, that's a personal choice, and I wouldn't presume to second guess it. That's a right we have - to leave someone when the relationship is no longer right and when we think we'd be better apart.

Does that make sense?

Suzi : Now you I agree with 100%, and I hope I can get your permission to borrow this framing for the future. (The part about how staying makes you a hero, but leaving doesn't make you a villain.)

Quote from: blueconstancy on August 28, 2014, 08:04:05 AM
Aurora : Let me spell this out. I AM a wife who stayed. Please, and I say this politely, don't tell me what's too much to ask of me, or what my experience with my spouse was like. That's exactly what I'm saying here - over and over, trans people are declaring that they know what it's like to be the SO, and then insisting that their narrative is the real one. Even when an *actual* SO is saying otherwise. You too mean well, but good grief.

Yes, the dynamics of our relationship changed. They also changed when we graduated college, and when I decided I didn't want kids, and when we both flat-out grew up. I like to say that the main difference is that things changed *faster* during transition; it was an accelerated roller-coaster ride. But she's 95% the same person personality-wise as before (the physical, of course, is a distinct issue).

Helen Boyd runs a private Yahoo group for SO's, and "is your spouse a completely different person, or even enough of one to invalidate the marriage" was a question asked recently. The majority of partners said no. Even the few who were leaving mostly said no; they said, in fact, that it turned out that a spouse who was selfish/childish/abusive etc. before was still like that during transition and they just couldn't take the one final straw. And all of them agreed that it's a marriage problem in the way that anything fundamental to one partner is a "marriage issue," at least up until the point where the marriage dissolves.

I do agree, of course, that punishing SO's (not all of whom are wives, or even married) is also unfair and unreasonable, and I appreciate the effort at support. It's good to have trans people who do tell SO's that it's all right to be angry and betrayed or be unable to make this work. The only distinction I'm drawing is between supporting an actual person saying that their decision is to leave, and insisting that all or most partners MUST leave. I feel bad for arguing with people who fundamentally want to be on my side, to be honest, but the fact remains that the narrative being repeated here caused me and others a great deal of pain.

I am sorry if I didn't understand your posts, then. I completely agree with you. I am not saying all wifes or partners must leave actually. I'm mainnly speaking for those who do and try to offer some insight and the reasons that lead wives to leave. Which I believe to be understandable. Again that doesn't have to be everyone's life story. I am very very glad that you guys could make it work. It must really mean a lot to both of you. I was just saying that takes a lot of effort and adjusting which most wives never really thought they would have to do. I agree that most personal issues are also transported to our relationships, but those which are hid for a long time and never took opportunity to express themselves are heart-breaking when revealed and lead to the feelings of betrayal, and once you choose to hide from your partner, it is impossible to expect that they should be totally accepting. And even if they do or regardless, if love ends, relationships end. That's why I am saying we shouldn't punish the wives who left. Sorry if I generalized your experience, it was never my intent. I wish you live a fulfilling life with your partner! I don't think you should leave at all.

Quote from: suzifrommd on August 28, 2014, 08:07:53 AM
I wouldn't put it that way.

I'd say that an SO who decides to stay is a HERO.

An SO who decides to leave is far from a villain, but certainly gives up a chance to be a hero.

IMO, anytime ANYONE leaves someone, for whatever reason, that's a personal choice, and I wouldn't presume to second guess it. That's a right we have - to leave someone when the relationship is no longer right and when we think we'd be better apart.

Does that make sense?

Special pleading the transgender's plight doesn't absolve one's responsibility for creating their marriage strife. It's not like the SO was the enabler in the situation or somehow complicit.

Sorry to say, if the marriage ends, it is pretty much black and white.

You can try to downplay the SO's grievances all you like. She/he is still the primary sufferer.

Aurora : Thank you for clarifying. In fact, it's the generalization that is my whole issue; once it's reduced to "some SO's can't make it work and we should support that decision as firmly as any other," I also agree 100% with you as well. (Just like sometimes someone forgives cheating, even the trans people who "betrayed" their SO are not necessarily the death knell for the relationship - though obviously I think it's better not to do that!)

Evelyn : "That's exactly what I'm saying here - over and over, trans people are declaring that they know what it's like to be the SO, and then insisting that their narrative is the real one. Even when an *actual* SO is saying otherwise." There ARE shades of gray; I know too many people living with them to believe otherwise. Sure, a straw-man situation is easy to demolish, but most of us don't live in those.

^^ "Sorry to say, if the marriage ends, it is pretty much black and white."

Context peoples.

Evelyn : So all of the SO's I've seen who said it wasn't - sometimes in those exact terms - are lying? Or is it just that they don't exist?

I can't prove they do without outing them, so fair enough, I suppose. But even if you go read through the SO's section here on Susan's, you'll find partners saying they left for reasons that had nothing to do with transition except that it was the last straw, partners saying they remain close friends [and even married] despite ending the romantic aspect of the relationship, partners who are understanding and loving and just couldn't bend their orientation enough... If you want to support partners, I recommend very strongly that you start by LISTENING to us, and to all the variety and nuance in our stories.

Actually, hmm. I should've Googled for this a while ago.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/transgender-love-husband-transitions-wife/story?id=14280850

"A 2011 landmark report, "Injustice at Every Turn," concludes that "nearly every system and institution" in the United States -- education, employment, housing and healthcare -- discriminates against transgender Americans.

The report was conducted by The National Center for Transgender Equality and the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, which surveyed 6,450 Americans who were transgender or non-gender conforming.

An estimated 45 percent of those surveyed said that their relationship with a spouse or partner ended because of their transgender identity. Surprisingly, 55 percent, stayed on or their relationship ended for other reasons, according to that report."

["for other reasons" sounds pretty shades-of-gray]

Quote from: blueconstancy on August 28, 2014, 08:04:05 AM
Aurora : Let me spell this out. I AM a wife who stayed. Please, and I say this politely, don't tell me what's too much to ask of me, or what my experience with my spouse was like. That's exactly what I'm saying here - over and over, trans people are declaring that they know what it's like to be the SO, and then insisting that their narrative is the real one. Even when an *actual* SO is saying otherwise. You too mean well, but good grief.

Yes, the dynamics of our relationship changed. They also changed when we graduated college, and when I decided I didn't want kids, and when we both flat-out grew up. I like to say that the main difference is that things changed *faster* during transition; it was an accelerated roller-coaster ride. But she's 95% the same person personality-wise as before (the physical, of course, is a distinct issue).

Helen Boyd runs a private Yahoo group for SO's, and "is your spouse a completely different person, or even enough of one to invalidate the marriage" was a question asked recently. The majority of partners said no. Even the few who were leaving mostly said no; they said, in fact, that it turned out that a spouse who was selfish/childish/abusive etc. before was still like that during transition and they just couldn't take the one final straw. And all of them agreed that it's a marriage problem in the way that anything fundamental to one partner is a "marriage issue," at least up until the point where the marriage dissolves.

I do agree, of course, that punishing SO's (not all of whom are wives, or even married) is also unfair and unreasonable, and I appreciate the effort at support. It's good to have trans people who do tell SO's that it's all right to be angry and betrayed or be unable to make this work. The only distinction I'm drawing is between supporting an actual person saying that their decision is to leave, and insisting that all or most partners MUST leave. I feel bad for arguing with people who fundamentally want to be on my side, to be honest, but the fact remains that the narrative being repeated here caused me and others a great deal of pain.

Evelyn,
You have found another topic that is near to my heart as you often do.  I think the comments above are important.  My marriage is ending, transition is a part of it, but only a small part. LTL put the issue nicely.  My wife married a man, turns out I wasn't one.  She isn't a lesbian, "good luck and God bless."  Spring forward two years.  Change happens growth happens - living as woman to woman stops being a show stopper, but other issues, changes, pain from a thousand cuts on both sides have taken its toll.  It is time to move on.  Here is where I very much admire blueconstancy.

I have no more business telling Donna how to think, feel, act, or be.  I love her and always will.  That is not the issue.  What is the issue is that we have very different ways of living, and very different standards that we are comfortable living with.  These issues existed before I began the journey to authenticity and they remain today.  Transition was initially a huge distraction and was frankly hurtful to someone I cared about.  We both shed many tears.  What we loved about each other, intelligence, compassion, family remains and is even acknowledged more deeply by each of us.  What drives us apart also remains, including who I am and how I live.

But you know what?  It's okay now. "all of them agreed that it's a marriage problem in the way that anything fundamental to one partner is a "marriage issue".  I honor my spouse, and have no bitterness.  I think she honors me, but you'll have to ask her.  Sometimes she visits Susan's, perhaps she will weigh in.  I will do all I can financially, emotionally, spiritually to both ease her path to a new life and to ease my own journey.  We are both more authentic, and more honest than we were at the start.  We are both better able to see the world as it is instead of as a construct. (This isn't a holodeck). 

With every death there is the opportunity for rebirth.  This could have been ugly for me and at times it was.  That, for now at least, it is not has a lot to do with forgiveness, acceptance, and honesty.  Something that bodes well for both our futures, and something that builds connections.

Fair Winds and Calm Seas,

Julie

Quote from: blueconstancy on August 28, 2014, 08:54:59 AM
Evelyn : So all of the SO's I've seen who said it wasn't - sometimes in those exact terms - are lying? Or is it just that they don't exist?

I can't prove they do without outing them, so fair enough, I suppose. But even if you go read through the SO's section here on Susan's, you'll find partners saying they left for reasons that had nothing to do with transition except that it was the last straw, partners saying they remain close friends [and even married] despite ending the romantic aspect of the relationship, partners who are understanding and loving and just couldn't bend their orientation enough... If you want to support partners, I recommend very strongly that you start by LISTENING to us, and to all the variety and nuance in our stories.

Actually, hmm. I should've Googled for this a while ago.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/transgender-love-husband-transitions-wife/story?id=14280850

"A 2011 landmark report, "Injustice at Every Turn," concludes that "nearly every system and institution" in the United States -- education, employment, housing and healthcare -- discriminates against transgender Americans.

The report was conducted by The National Center for Transgender Equality and the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, which surveyed 6,450 Americans who were transgender or non-gender conforming.

An estimated 45 percent of those surveyed said that their relationship with a spouse or partner ended because of their transgender identity. Surprisingly, 55 percent, stayed on or their relationship ended for other reasons, according to that report."

["for other reasons" sounds pretty shades-of-gray]

^^ Alright I'll give you that. So some SO's decided to settle out of necessity of keeping some form of familial structure, doing it for the kids, or for financial reasons, or hardship of some other kind. I can see making a relationship compromise might be in the best interest of the couple. Or on the flip side, the SO left not because of the trans issue, but it was the straw that broke the camels back.

Either way the disclosure was the catalyst for an unexpected change. For good or bad... whatever floats your boat.

Personally as an SO - I shouldn't have to be put into a position where I have to settle or compromise.

Evelyn : Fine, if and when you find yourself in this position, I will be as ardent a defender of your right to make the decision for yourself as I am for anyone else. But please stop telling those of us who do live in the situation that you know better than we do. (I did NOT settle. I'm still in love and happier now than before.) Not every relationship that stayed together did it out of pragmatism, and not every SO who left did so because of transition. As I said to Aurora, if you limit yourself to discussing actual people who had the experiences and made the choices you describe, I have no qualms agreeing; it's that you keep insisting that you know what's true for all of us and that there's never any shades of gray.

I'm actually serious that you should read through the SO's section; there is a breathtaking variety both in the stories and the reactions, and even some (like Helen Boyd herself) who say "no way in hell will I stick it out if you pursue full transition" and then... life changes, people change, and here they still are.

Heck, compromise is the backbone of success in many long-term relationships. Trans*-related or otherwise. Sometimes you love someone enough that you forgive them for not being perfect (and they do you), even when the flaws are pretty major. My wife's been there for me over the years even when I changed the terms of our marriage too; I robbed her of her dream of having kids, for example. I am not being snarky when I say that if you hold out for a relationship that exists only in black and white, you are severely limiting your own chances of success.

a life is an incredibly complicated thing, bringing two together is even more complex. I don't think its fair to consider the issues with such a broad brush and make blanket judgements.

Its funny but older people actually seem to be more understanding of me and I heard this is normal. I think as you get older you understand that life is a massive mix of so many variables and things that happen are things that happen. When you are young you know everything, but when you are old you realise that the wisest one is the one who knows they know nothing at all, as they say.

I think its a little immature to be so judgemental of others without understanding their situations.