QuoteI wish they would show more FTM.  Don't really know why MTF is always the transgender flag bearer for these photos, but I think on the whole my general problem with the media coverage isn't about the whole passable unpassable thing, but it's more about showing diversity.  The people they show are generally white and MTF.

Plus if the focus were shifted to FTM I think the emphasis on passability would somewhat dissipate, because I don't think the emphasis is there in FTM to the extent that it is in MTF, because guys aren't really evaluated aesthetically, so much as by their presence, attitude, and character.  So coverage skewed that way would seem to be something of an antidote to the Springer-ist coverage we all endure right now.

I agree with this 100%! When I first started transitioning, I was frustrated with the lack of FTMs in the media! It's changing, though. "Boys Don't Cry" and "Southern Comfort" are both very good. And that one newsweek article included pics/stories of FTMs as well -- though not as much as MTFs. I think the problem is that FTMs tend to drop of the radar once they've transitioned. Maybe it's a passability thing. Testosterone is pretty powerful, and most FTMs pass very well. But sometimes MTFs aren't as lucky, and they literally HAVE to become activists just to go about their daily business. I hope this changes; that is, I hope that, someday, we'll all blend into the woodwork -- not because we pass or because we're in stealth, but because people just don't care whether we're trans.

I am not going to argue over terminology, if you do not like it fine, but don't gripe at me for using terminology which is common within the trans community itself, and that many of us do not have a problem with.  The terminology is not about putting people in a nongender category.  I could argue about this endlessly but I won't.

Also with regards to trans activist, both men and women, all that I have met are passable.  If one thing bothers me the most it is the stereotype of transactivist as T-Girls or non-passing transwomen.  When neither is the case.  I get significantly more exposed to trans-activist than most people being in DC.  The whole unpassable thing is a myth, and probably one of the worst myths around.

This seems to be a stereotype perpetuated by the advocates of stealth that seems not to die, is that the activist are by in large non-passing older transwomen, when everybody that I know of as an activist that is far from the case.  Most activist are men and women in their twenties and early thirties who deeply believe in civil rights, and passing is not an issue for any of them.  These are not people forced into an activist role because of the burden of not passing, no, rather the activist I know are people who do activism because they have an idealistic mindset and came of age in an era where being closeted is not seen as a necessity.  So the stereotype of the older, nonpassing woman who has to deal with injustice daily, well...that is not really the activist I know.  The activist I know are diverse group of civil rights types. 

I will say one of the big differences between the activist and the stealth types.  The activist have much less a sense of shame than the stealth types, both during transition and after transition.   The shame or denial from being trans does not really seem to exist for those who tend to fight for their civil rights.  They are not or no longer ashamed for who they are so they see no reason to seek out stealth.  It seems for the stealth types that shame never goes away, and for some there is a type of internalized trans phobia on their own part.  Plus it requires, not pride, but a level of personal comfort for one to speak with authority on a given issue on civil rights issues. It is also the knowledge that the societal sense of shame that is trying to be enforced upon transpeople is wrong, and its part of why these people are activist, to fight against these attitudes which perpetuate the shame of one being trans.  One must literally not be ashamed about their unique set of circumstances if they are to be an activist, because in a way you are fighting against this sense of shame.  That seems to be nonexistant with the stealth types, it may also be why they gripe about it when terms like transwoman are used, even when those who are probably most for equal respect, and those who FIGHT for it, use the term themselves.  While the stealth types complain about the use of the term, stereotype those who are actually doing the civil rights work (in an internalized transphobic way) and generally retain their own sense of shame without gaining a greater sense of understanding.  I don't like the stealth types who are like this, largely because they complain about terminology and stereotype those who are involved, without really making real connections regarding these issues.   I largely have this opinion through those I have encountered in my own life, but also on the web. 


The term is not about the concept of a third sex by the way.  It is about putting something in a context that is easy to describe.   You may hate the term, but do not go after other people for using it.  I know other people who I hate the term as well.  They are mostly younger and do not have a complex enough understanding of why the term is used by those in the trans community who are activist.  So you know, I will keep using the term, it may bother you, but its common terminology and until there is better terminology to describe somebody who is a transsexual woman or transsexual man, that is needed to be used to distinguish in the use of circumstantial specific language, I will use it.  I prefer it to MtF of FtM significantly, because it describes their gender identity in the shorthand and not their past sex.  As I see it transwoman, means woman, who happened to transition.  Trans means someone who is or has transitioned in my mind.  The reason why I don't mind the term is because it does not imply a third sex, rather that it implies transitional or transsexual.  If you think it implies a third sex, you are mistaken. 

Also I agree with the transmen thing, they are by in large underrepresented in the media. 

Sorry if you do not like the term it is your own problem, but certain terms have certain meanings to certain people.  Like it or not, I am going to use it. 

Quote from: Amy T. on September 27, 2007, 11:57:38 AM
This seems to be a stereotype perpetuated by the advocates of stealth that seems not to die, is that the activist are by in large non-passing older transwomen, when everybody that I know of as an activist that is far from the case.  Most activist are men and women in their twenties and early thirties who deeply believe in civil rights, and passing is not an issue for any of them.

Thanks for a great post Amy!

There are some of us older folks out here too. I'm 51 and have been an activist since I was around 15. For many causes, not just transgender rights. I believe Woody Guthrie said, where there is oppression, that's where I'll be, fighting for everyone's rights. For my right to be out, and passing as myself, whatever gender that might be, and for other's right to be stealth.

Z

QuoteSorry if you do not like the term it is your own problem, but certain terms have certain meanings to certain people.  Like it or not, I am going to use it.

This brings up an interesting topic. What words should be used in the media to refer to transgendered people? I'm sure that most of us can agree that words like "->-bleeped-<-," "crossdresser," "he-she," and (for FTMs) "butch" are considered offensive for those transpeople who don't identify as such (some do), but what about other terms? I personally have never liked being referred to as a "transman" -- I prefer to think of myself as just a "guy" -- but some transmen love the word. Same with "t-man," "t-girl," "->-bleeped-<-->-bleeped-<-," "transdyke," "two-spirit," and all the rest. What about the word "transsexual" at all? Should we abandon it for the more inclusive "transgender," especially for those who don't fit cleanly into a fixed gender role?

Discuss. Include examples. Be sure to double-space your work and turn it in at the end of the hour to your teaching assistant, Andrew. Your grade will be based partially on punctuation and the number of times you use the word "boobies." Prof. Nero will assign your final grade based on his previous assignments. Karen, is that gum?

T-Girl I do not like because its used by ->-bleeped-<-s. 

I often use transguy, transmen, or the guys.  When refering to the guys. 

I like the term trans as supposed to transsexual because it can refer to transition instead of transsexual, which I think may be a more accurate description.

I do not like transgender to cover those who are CD.  I don't mind it being refered to by those who are genderqueer. 

I don't like ->-bleeped-<-->-bleeped-<- or ->-bleeped-<-dyke, because HATE the word ->-bleeped-<-.

I like transgrrl, as there is a direct link to riot grrl and third wave feminism and is directly linked to transwomen in the pacific northwest in the punk scene.

I like the term transwoman.  It does not bother me.  I often say I am an intersex transwoman. 

I dislike MtF and FtM and try to limit use.  I dislike these terms because they describe ones birth or assigned gender, not their identified gender. 

QuoteI dislike MtF and FtM and try to limit use.  I dislike these terms because they describe ones birth or assigned gender, not their identified gender.

Plus no one outside the transgender community will have any idea what you mean. Actually, it's nice that you can use them in public and 99% of people won't be the wiser...

"Two-spirit" does not describe transsexual people like me who fit right into the target gender. It means bigendered, a combination of masculine and feminine identities. I reject that label for myself same as I reject "third gender." I'm just a woman.

Quote"Two-spirit" does not describe transsexual people like me who fit right into the target gender. It means bigendered, a combination of masculine and feminine identities. I reject that label for myself same as I reject "third gender." I'm just a woman.

It sometimes surprises me how many transgendered people use the term "two-spirit" or "third gender." They'll write about how they've always felt masculine/feminine, and have wanted to be a boy/girl for their entire life, but when they've transitioned, they don't completely identify as that gender but use an inter-gender term. I don't know why that is -- maybe they're afraid of losing their "queerness"? Or they don't want to give up their male/female side? I haven't given up my stereotypical "female" traits such as knitting and cooing at babies, but I still thoroughly identify as a guy.

Two-spirit and other cultural third gendered terms are very culturally specific to certain cultures.  I think they really should only be used in narrow cultural circumstances, and I do not like broad use of the word.

Quote from: Andrew on September 28, 2007, 11:21:30 AM
It sometimes surprises me how many transgendered people use the term "two-spirit" or "third gender." They'll write about how they've always felt masculine/feminine, and have wanted to be a boy/girl for their entire life, but when they've transitioned, they don't completely identify as that gender but use an inter-gender term. I don't know why that is -- maybe they're afraid of losing their "queerness"? Or they don't want to give up their male/female side? I haven't given up my stereotypical "female" traits such as knitting and cooing at babies, but I still thoroughly identify as a guy.

I don't think that the traits you mention should be considered as "female" traits they don't make you any less manly in my mind (but I do admit my mind isn't normal anyway). and as far as what names to be called I guess I agree that the term transsexual is pretty offensive (although I have used it and never thought about it at all!) the term gives the impression that we are being changed into something different. when someone gets a nose job should what there nose used to look like be used to describe them for the rest of thier lives? I guess that if there were a term used to descrie the truth it would be less offensive ie.. gender corrected but that doesn't sound right either so maybe we are just  stuck with these old terms for lack of better ones!

Transnasal -- hey, why not?

QuoteTransnasal -- hey, why not?

Heh, heh. I'm "transboobal."

Quote from: Hypatia on September 28, 2007, 10:55:46 AM
"Two-spirit" does not describe transsexual people like me who fit right into the target gender. It means bigendered, a combination of masculine and feminine identities. I reject that label for myself same as I reject "third gender." I'm just a woman.

Thanks for your post Hypatia....now we are getting somewhere. I didn't go into this just to get the tag   'transwomen'......I went into this to be a 'female' and that's how so far I've been percieved, thank goodness..

To me 'transwomen' is a tag percifically designed to indicate someone hasn't transitioned. The terminology of 'M to F' is used by all of you which means 'Male to Female' it doesn't mean 'Male to Transwomen', so why use it? a transition is surely supposed to be a transition from one gender to another, not some freaky alien third gender called a 'Transwomen'.