House cuts transgender people from hate crimes bill

San Francisco Chronicle
By Carolyn Lochhead
9/28/2007

'(09-28) 04:00 PDT Washington -- Even as the Senate passed a hate crimes bill sought for a decade by gays and lesbians, House Democratic leaders decided Thursday to strip transgender people from another long-languishing civil rights bill, generating dismay in the gay community and furious but fruitless lobbying for more time'.

Damn you to hell, Barney Frank. 

I am too disgusted to actually speak my mind about this right now.  I'd be banned for sure for using the language that is roaring through my head right now.

I hope the ENDA bill dies the ignominous death it deserves and that the right thinking portion of the populace rises up in universal condemnation of this selling out of the weakest and most needy of all the LGBT community.  If ENDA passes without the trans inclusion, we will NEVER get our rights.

I am truly disgusted beyond what words can describe.

Emelye

Quote from: Emelye on September 28, 2007, 08:00:46 PM
I am too disgusted to actually speak my mind about this right now.  I'd be banned for sure for using the language that is roaring through my head right now.

I hope the ENDA bill dies the ignominous death it deserves and that the right thinking portion of the populace rises up in universal condemnation of this selling out of the weakest and most needy of all the LGBT community.  If ENDA passes without the trans inclusion, we will NEVER get our rights.

I am truly disgusted beyond what words can describe.

Emelye

Hi Em, this is Ell.

i am not so sure that the GLB "sold out" the T in the GLBT. i heard that Rep. Frank had been working very hard to get trans included, but finally caved in because there was a broad lack of support by other Democrats.

however, i frankly don't understand why the GLB would stick its neck out for us, anyway. i don't go to GLBT clubs anymore, because i don't feel at all welcome there. in fact, the vibe i get is that they wish i would just get lost. what does GLB have to lose by getting rid of us? the fact that they have stood by us and spoken up on our behalf for the last 10 years is what confuses me. maybe that phase is coming to an end. maybe the new trend is, the GLB have decided that they don't really like us, after all. and, if we are a political liability, maybe they think they'll be better off without us. 

-ell

Well, I went to a meeting of the Arlington Gay and Lesbian Association last year--they hosted a meeting of Equality Virginia, which I belong to-- and the gays gave me a warm welcome, they were ecstatic that they actually had two trans people, me and a friend, attending. They told us, "We'd been wishing for years we could get some trans people to attend but we never saw you." I said if we were invisible in years past, it's because we were scared and hiding. Now we feel it's safer to be out. At least Arlington is a friendly place, not so much the rest of Virginia.

1. The TS and IS community chose to merge with the LGB for purposes of MONEY! Merging resources. I believe that is called using them.

2. The LGB community gains the right to marry if all goes as they plan, and it is going to get very heated in 08' and they are using the TS and IS community as well.

The using of each other was agreed to by a majority of those that have been active in this arena. Those that are standing on the sidelines your always free to jump in and be part of the solution.  If the TS and IS community had the resources to stand on their own, rights would be further along, joining in with the LGB community was a way to get support that we were not providing for ourselves with so many people in hiding or too afraid, whatever the case may be. The LGB community has resources that the T and I alone did not.

When the right to marry issue hits the waves in 08' the Intersex community is the one in position to save the LGB community, get involved folks and you may be suprised what is happening behind closed doors and in public summits is a lot of work to help YOU!

Quotewhat does GLB have to lose by getting rid of us? the fact that they have stood by us and spoken up on our behalf for the last 10 years is what confuses me. maybe that phase is coming to an end. maybe the new trend is, the GLB have decided that they don't really like us, after all. and, if we are a political liability, maybe they think they'll be better off without us. 

Or maybe it is because we have finally begun listening to your voices and heard what you had to say. And what you told us is that you aren't queer, and so, not in need of special protection. What would trans-whatever people need protections for if they are really just regular str8 men and women?  Heterosexual men and women are in the majority, and their rights are covered by the current laws. They don't need any special help or aid against discrimination. They just need to be left alone. And that is what you are getting. Left alone to your own devices.

So, down the road, don't complain about being abandoned. You told us you didn't need us or our help, because you are not different. And if you didn't lift a finger to help your own cause, or raise your voice to do the same, than you reaped what you sowed.

Those not willing to fight for their own rights with the time, talent and treasures at their disposal, deserve none. Besides, hiding is so much a better strategy than outing yourself.
Right? It even worked for Anne Frank for a while.

Queers have gotten to this point because we are not afraid to stand up for ourselves, to donate our time and money, and because we are willing to fight. My guess is that if trans-gendered people had created a groundswell of public sentiment by working toward this bill, that it might have happened. But as I am often reminded, the strategy is to blend in and hide in public, and depend on other people to fight your battles for you.

My sympathy goes out to those from the trans-community that are not interested in assimilating into the heterosexist world. You are the people that had something to lose.

Thundra,

Personally I take a lot of offense to what you have said in here, and I know a lot of LGB people that would also be offended with your behavior! The trans and Intersex community is working hard with the LGB community on educating those that are actually out there on the front line to make political change as well as advanced provider care.... where have you been on the front line?

I am a strait trans intersex male that transitioned my identity 17 plus  yers ago. I blend just fine thank you! I am married, I live a rather traditional life, with the exception of one thing.... I AM VERY ACTIVE in fighting for rights and providing education. I educate the LGB, I educate college students, I speak on National Panels, I speak on educational panels for care providers,  and I have done indepth sociological research, yes under my name and publically published, look me up on Barnes and Nobles if you like. But don't come in here and tell me I don't exist, and that all of us that can blend just run away and hide.

I have been up three times this week in the middle of the night with suicidal people on my phone calling from some state in the US needing someone to talk to. I work on legal rights issues, human rights issues, and most of all I respect the dignity of all people including the LGB people that I cannot actually relate to, but ALWAYS stand up for!

What your saying is just like what Gays did to each other not that long ago, or are you too young to remember your own history? Are you taking for granteed your freedom to not be in the closet? Yes that is a serious question, because if your older and you do remember, then what you say is even more offensive, and you should really be ashamed.

I agree, there is a need for more to come forward. But what your saying is down right off the wall and out of line and you bet I take offense. I bust my butt standing up for gay rights in a very conservative southern states, and I do take heat for it, but I do it because while I have no clue what it is to be gay, I do have a clue to what your history is. And if I cannot relate on a human level I would hope I would keep my mouth shut.

So do me a favor don't speak as if I don't exist, don't speak as if you know what is really going on out here on the front when the front is nationwide and you are not aware of all of us out here. And I am very interested in what you have done.... I would love to work with you if you are being a productive member of our merged movement and out here on the front line, but if all your doing is slamming those of us who blend, don't respond to my offer to work with you, I would find you too hard to tolerate due to your own discrimation, the very thing that has oppressed you, your gonna do to others? What's the deal with that? That is a ritorical question for the record.


Peace
Taylor

Quote from: Thundra on September 28, 2007, 09:35:35 PM
Or maybe it is because we have finally begun listening to your voices and heard what you had to say. And what you told us is that you aren't queer, and so, not in need of special protection. What would trans-whatever people need protections for if they are really just regular str8 men and women?  Heterosexual men and women are in the majority, and their rights are covered by the current laws. They don't need any special help or aid against discrimination. They just need to be left alone. And that is what you are getting. Left alone to your own devices.

So, down the road, don't complain about being abandoned. You told us you didn't need us or our help, because you are not different. And if you didn't lift a finger to help your own cause, or raise your voice to do the same, than you reaped what you sowed.

Those not willing to fight for their own rights with the time, talent and treasures at their disposal, deserve none. Besides, hiding is so much a better strategy than outing yourself.
Right? It even worked for Anne Frank for a while.

Queers have gotten to this point because we are not afraid to stand up for ourselves, to donate our time and money, and because we are willing to fight. My guess is that if trans-gendered people had created a groundswell of public sentiment by working toward this bill, that it might have happened. But as I am often reminded, the strategy is to blend in and hide in public, and depend on other people to fight your battles for you.

My sympathy goes out to those from the trans-community that are not interested in assimilating into the heterosexist world. You are the people that had something to lose.

i wasn't expecting to hear from you. would you please calm down, my dear?

i've only just started transitioning this summer, and now i feel like i'm somehow being dragged into the fray. by the neck.

my take on the difference between G and T is that trans men and women are in fact more true to the idea of traditional male and female gender roles. but that certainly doesn't make us less queer. yes, in fact, that makes us the queerest of the queer.

don't be fooled by any trans girls who try to make you think otherwise. if they want to go stealth, you and i can't stop them. but the harder they try to assimilate, the queerer they will be.

-ell

Quote from: Ell on September 28, 2007, 10:44:58 PM
if they want to go stealth, you and i can't stop them. but the harder they try to assimilate, the queerer they will be.

Wait... how so? I'm not sure I know what you mean here?

Thing is, I'm NOT "trying" to assimilate. It's just... happening. THEY... people... have assimilated ME.

~Kate~

QuoteI would find you too hard to tolerate due to your own discrimation, the very thing that has oppressed you, your gonna do to others? What's the deal with that? That is a ritorical question for the record.

Well, that's interesting. Because that is exactly what I see happening here on this site.
Let me ask YOU a question. If you are working to expand protections for the trans-gendered community, do you support protections for all forms of gender expression, or just those that YOU deem appropriate? Ala, people like yourself, that as you put it, blend in? Because that would be supporting the status quo, and supporting the status quo is repressive to other people not in your ballpark. That is true regardless of sexual orientation.

I'd also like to know exactly why str8 people need special protections under the law? Str8 people that conform to traditional gender roles blend in. So, if they are just normal people, why do they need to be included in civil rights protections codified specifically into law? Or are you saying that there are two different groups of people we are talking about? Because the people gnawing on my ear keep insisting they are just normal men and women. If that is the case, they don't need the protections afforded by ENDA, do they?

I have been around quite a while sir, and as I recall, the trans-community came to us seeking help and legal aid, not vice versa. They needed our resources, not vice versa.

As far as taking offense, I've been taking abuse from all quarters for some time from immature people that don't even know their history. So speak to your own before you come after me sir.

Quote from: Kate on September 28, 2007, 10:55:40 PM

Quote from: Ell on September 28, 2007, 10:44:58 PM
if they want to go stealth, you and i can't stop them. but the harder they try to assimilate, the queerer they will be.

Wait... how so? I'm not sure I know what you mean here?

Thing is, I'm NOT "trying" to assimilate. It's just... happening. THEY... people... have assimilated ME.

~Kate~

Aw jeez, Kate, i'm so happy for you, but i still hate you!

Now that you're accepted as a she, do you use the women's restroom at work?

but, as for your question, what i'm saying is, no matter how much we may appear to be women, we are not women. that's queer. now as for being female, i am naturally more female than any female i know. that's very queer. lots of GG's don't care much about building their personalities. i do care about it. a lot. that's queer. Queer, by definition, is a little bit, somehow, off. a little odd, you know, counterfeit. the better the counterfeit, the more queer.

-ell

Uh, yeah,
Thundra, please, ratchet down the whatever...
Not everyone who's got a different opinion
than you is a mortal ennemi.


By the way, I've beaten two times by mobs
of crazy teens in my 20's, 10+ punching and kicking,
good thing I stayed on my feet and was pretty
good at protecting my head and both
were in public places in broad daylight
(one was in a bus just in front of a police
station, I kid you not). Still, got my glasses broken,
twice, a bloodys noses, swollen jaws, and hundreds of
of bruises from these wonderful experience.
So, I think I know what abuse's about...

That being said,
There's several different crowds here.

There are TG that are not really TS as classically
defined. I'm not sure the current bill was meant
to protect them. Because, for many, the
fact that they are not medically recognised makes
them just weird (not saying I agree) and thus
not worth protecting. That's where TS were just
10 years ago (and to many, its still the case).

For the "classical TS" (TM)
I think the protection we need is to
prevent right wing nuts from: preventing
us from ever being able to be "woman"
under the law. Like that would remove
something from other women; from
harassing us because of our difference
regardless of our protection as women
(since we would be targets of
special harassement regardless if we
pass or not, even post SRS)

Quote from: Thundra on September 28, 2007, 10:59:35 PMI'd also like to know exactly why str8 people need special protections under the law? Str8 people that conform to traditional gender roles blend in. So, if they are just normal people, why do they need to be included in civil rights protections codified specifically into law? Or are you saying that there are two different groups of people we are talking about? Because the people gnawing on my ear keep insisting they are just normal men and women. If that is the case, they don't need the protections afforded by ENDA, do they?

I have to agree that straight people don't need protection and that those heterosexual trans people who pass are included in that group.  ENDA and the Matthew Shepard Hate Crimes bill were not written for those people.

Those of us who identify within the queer community, however, and those of us who do not perfectly pass, need these protections as much or even more than the rest of the GLB portion.  We are more visible and bear the biggest brunt of the hate and discrimination because of that visibility.

Yes, I agree that there are two different groups of people in the trans community.  We are all normal men and women with extraordinary pasts and some of us are queer.  The others aren't and they are not the people who need protection.  So those working against trans inclusion in ENDA are working against other queers.  Why?  I can only wonder if it isn't the entrenched transphobia that we still see all to often even in the GLB community

It annoys me too that many trans people go into stealth and stop advocating for what's right as part of their strategy for staying hidden.  Yet I can perfectly understand why they do it.  It's a personal choice based on who they are and the conditions they find themselves in so who am I to judge them?  If they want to hide their past and deny their true identities, I can ignore them.  They don't count anymore in our fight.

The divisiveness that this circumstance has brought out in the GLBT community at large, as well as here at Susan's, distresses me to no end.  The T portion of that community is queer!  Plain and simple, and they acknowledge that fact by identifying as such.  Those trans people who wish to hide aren't part of this community and I hope people will be able to see that fine but very important distinction.

hugs & smiles
Emelye

Quote from: Ell on September 28, 2007, 11:03:45 PM
no matter how much we may appear to be women, we are not women.

-ell

We?  "we" is way too many people, Ell.  I respect your opinion but disagree with it. 
Also, let's keep in mind that the choice between out and stealth is just that, a choice, an entirely personal decision without any expectations or obligations.

tink

Quote from: Tink on September 29, 2007, 09:23:15 AM

Quote from: Ell on September 28, 2007, 11:03:45 PM
no matter how much we may appear to be women, we are not women.

-ell

We?  "we" is way too many people, Ell.  I respect your opinion but disagree with it. 

tink

you're right!

i wouldn't expect you to get what i'm saying, because you are a bit IS.

IS has a level of acceptance, medical acceptance, that TG and TS will never reach.

So, you are the exception. you are truly legitimate, and if you say you are a woman, and not queer, i totally accept that.

now that i think about it, Kate is a bit IS too. but she always sounds as if she has TS angst, so i often think of her as TS rather than IS.

Sadly, i am not IS at all.

as TS, my legitimacy is questioned at every turn, as is my sanity. as is my right to exist on this planet.

-ell

IS?  That's news to me!    but by some people's definition (people from this site), I guess I am IS.  I wasn't referring to my status as IS though as it is questionable if I hold such status.  I was just referring to my status as a woman.  Like someone else said here.  I am not special, I am not exceptional, I am not unusual, I am just a woman like zillions of other women who were born with XX chromosomes.  I think that it is about time for the TS community (note what I said, TS community) to realize and accept that.  We are not rarities (no offense intended), we are just regular men and women.

tink

I'm suprised there are people out there who would vote for ENDA so long as there wasn't transgender protection.  I would have thought it an all or nothing proposition for most, given that most of the populace of crazy right winger nutjobs lump us all together anyways.  I don't really understand how in their minds we are somehow worse than anything else.

Also if they pass the sexual orientation aspect of the bill, would a transgender person be able to seek protection under that if they were lesbian, gay, or bisexual?  Like say it's a part of your queer lifestyle, and they are discriminating against it?  Or no?  Like what if people are fine with me being transgender, but they see me with a girlfriend, get disgusted, and use my ->-bleeped-<- to discriminate against me, even though what they are really mad at is my lesbian or bisexualism?

Quote from: Tink on September 29, 2007, 10:10:53 AM
IS?  That's news to me!    but by some people's definition (people from this site), I guess I am IS.  I wasn't referring to my status as IS though as it is questionable if I hold such status.  I was just referring to my status as a woman.  Like someone else said here.  I am not special, I am not exceptional, I am not unusual, I am just a woman like zillions of other women who were born with XX chromosomes.  I think that it is about time for the TS community (note what I said, TS community) to realize and accept that.  We are not rarities (no offense intended), we are just regular men and women.

tink

Hi Tink,

i wouldn't drop that IS status so quickly if i were you.

however, since you seem to be saying you'll relinquish it at least for the duration of our discussion, and you are willing to accept only a TS status for the duration of our discussion, then yes, i would say you are queer. i mean, that's the definition of what queer is. look it up. and i don't mean it in a derogatory way. you are very special. you are very exceptional. you are someone i'd love to meet, and i know that i would cherish your friendship. and i think if you go through a list of active members on this site, you will find that a very large of number of trans people here are also quite exceptional.

if one were not going to at least try to be an exceptional woman, what would be the end result of transitioning? GG's everywhere would say "well, _________  is ok, but she's a bit of a bimbo, you know."

Tink, you are queer. Really queer. and i mean that in the tenderest and kindest way i can possibly say it.

-ell

Quote from: EllTink, you are queer. Really queer. and i mean that in the tenderest and kindest way i can possibly say it.-ell

LOL    Okay Ell.  I believe that you truly believe that, Ell; however as I said, I don't agree with it regardless of what a zillion of dictionaries state.  (what can I say?  I'm a very stubborn girl).  Incidentally, thanks very much for the sweet comments

tink