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Cis perspective on androgynous, genderfluid

Started by orie, September 14, 2014, 10:28:34 AM

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orie

I think there is a bit of misunderstanding here. Non-binaries usually see themselves as both male and female and, quite legitimately, wonder why cis people fail to consider this advantagious and enriching, as you sort of possess keys to both kingdoms, being endowed with superior knowledge and insights into both male and female psyche...
But the problem is, for majority of us (cis), 'androgynous' does not mean both male and female, it means neither. In a way, male and female characteristics in the same person tend to nullify each other, in the eyes of the cis-world.
Do you see how this can be problematic to come to a mutual understanding?
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Dread_Faery

This is a manifestation of cis privilege, rather than listening to a non binary person describe their experiences of being non binary, they have had their experiences belittled, told the word that they're using doesn't actually mean what they've described and has probably left them wishing that they'd never bothered to explain in the first place. Even if the person they were trying to explain to was genuinely interested and wanted to learn.

The English language is still playing catch up with non binary realities, telling someone off for not using the precise definition of the word is not helping you understand a non binary reality, and it doesn't help the non binary person trying to explain because you've pretty much derailed what they were saying and made it about cis perspectives on gender.

[/thread]
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EchelonHunt

First off, making blanket statements about a group of diverse individuals is not cool. At all. It's one thing to have an opinion, it's another to parade said opinion as if it is fact.

Secondly, you seem to have mixed non-binary and androgynous up. It's common, mistakes happen and it's nothing to be ashamed of!

Non-Binaries, by definition, are gender identities that do not fit within the accepted binary of male and female. People can feel they are both, neither, or some mixture thereof. For example, I identify as non-binary and the core of my identity is genderless - neither male or female. I accept I have gender expressions that are masculine or feminine but I do not strictly see myself as male or female in terms of gender identity.

Androgynous as a gender expression - before I even learned about transgender or non-binary identities, I viewed androgynous people as having both feminine and masculine characteristics. I never thought of them being neither because society doesn't exactly tell you that the nature of being neither gender exists, just that there is only strictly male and female. At least, that's what society told me - maybe it was different for you? Awfully vague but I'm open to hear why you think so  :)
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suzifrommd

Actually, Orie, Non-Binary can mean any of a variety of ways that gender is experienced. It merely means not completely male, and not completely female. Some non-binary folks feel androgynous, some feel part male part female, some feel like a member of an yet unexplored third gender, some feel no gender at all, and some switch back and forth between any or all of the above. That doesn't even begin to cover it.

In my opinion, there is no right or wrong way to be non-binary or to describe the very real experience of being non-binary.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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JulieBlair

Quote from: suzifrommd  link =topic=1 73395 .msg152.1173#m sg1521173 date=1410736160
Actually, Orie, Non-Binary can mean any of a variety of ways that gender is experienced. It merely means not completely male, and not completely female. Some non-binary folks feel androgynous, some feel part male part female, some feel like a member of an yet unexplored third gender, some feel no gender at all, and some switch back and forth between any or all of the above. That doesn't even begin to cover it.

In my opinion, there is no right or wrong way to be non-binary or to describe the very real experience of being non-binary.

Suzi,
I think that puts it very nicely :)
Julie
I am my own best friend and my own worst enemy.  :D
Full Time 18 June 2014
Esprit can be found at http://espritconf.com/
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Mark3

Quote from: orie on September 14, 2014, 10:28:34 AM
Non-binaries usually see themselves as both male and female and, quite legitimately, wonder why cis people fail to consider this advantagious and enriching, as you sort of possess keys to both kingdoms, being endowed with superior knowledge and insights into both male and female psyche...

I love the way you wrote that, I feel empowered by thinking of myself in those terms...

As for androgynous meaning neither gender and nullifying each binary, I never thought of it like that..? I always believed it meant the best qualities of both binaries... Androgyny was at the half way point between male and female, where non binarys are nearer one binary than the other.? I hope I explained it correctly..?

Hmm, keys to both kingdoms...??? Lucky us...!!  ;D
"The soul is beyond male and female as it is beyond life and death."
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EchelonHunt

Quote from: Mark3 on September 14, 2014, 09:21:33 PM
Hmm, keys to both kingdoms...??? Lucky us...!!  ;D

Very true! ;D I feel like we should incorporate this into the unicorn forest thread!
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Mark3

Quote from: EchelonHunt on September 14, 2014, 09:33:49 PM
Very true! ;D I feel like we should incorporate this into the unicorn forest thread!

YES YES..!  ;D     let's do..!!!
"The soul is beyond male and female as it is beyond life and death."
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Taka

no no no. that's just so wrong.
talking about having the keys to both kingdoms is just... too little.
non-binary people have the keys to the entire universe, if they just choose to use them.

why settle for just male and female, when there is so much more to discover?
why view gender as a line that goes from female to male, with some androgynous in the middle?

i view gender as at least 3 dimensional.
that line can't account for how gender can be no gender at all, or both genders at the same time.
neither does it account for something else entirely, which many of us experience.

gender is at least as vast as the universe.
those who are willing to look beyond what is known and the binaries acknowledged by the cistem, will discover a most astonishing truth.
or more like a whole ton of questions to be answered as we dare to think outside boxes and established beliefs about the world.

why it that i'm happy to have found myself as non-binary?
for some petty reason like getting the best of both worlds?
are you telling me there are only two worlds?
i'm already seeing something so vast, that i would never want to go back to binary thinking.
it's so much more than what can be imagined with only male and female as reference points.

the difference is like between black and white, and millions of colors.
those who still want to see the world through that age old tv of theirs are welcome to do so of course.
i'd love me some more color though.
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Mark3

Quote from: Taka on September 15, 2014, 03:33:32 AM
no no no. that's just so wrong.
talking about having the keys to both kingdoms is just... too little.
non-binary people have the keys to the entire universe, if they just choose to use them.

why settle for just male and female, when there is so much more to discover?
why view gender as a line that goes from female to male, with some androgynous in the middle?

i view gender as at least 3 dimensional.
that line can't account for how gender can be no gender at all, or both genders at the same time.
neither does it account for something else entirely, which many of us experience.

gender is at least as vast as the universe.
those who are willing to look beyond what is known and the binaries acknowledged by the cistem, will discover a most astonishing truth.
or more like a whole ton of questions to be answered as we dare to think outside boxes and established beliefs about the world.

why it that i'm happy to have found myself as non-binary?
for some petty reason like getting the best of both worlds?
are you telling me there are only two worlds?
i'm already seeing something so vast, that i would never want to go back to binary thinking.
it's so much more than what can be imagined with only male and female as reference points.

the difference is like between black and white, and millions of colors.
those who still want to see the world through that age old tv of theirs are welcome to do so of course.
i'd love me some more color though.

Yes I get it much better now, thats great insight..
You all blow my mind sometimes with the way you get these complicated things..! Its so cool..

I feel like someone just learning how to swim, but only knowing so far how to float and flop around...? I'm still getting my feet wet, learning the basics, but not enough to look or sound like I know what I'm doing, or being able to Swim beautifully like the rest of you.. 

I want that universe of a million colors that's inside of me..!! I want it so bad...
"The soul is beyond male and female as it is beyond life and death."
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Taka

you can find it, just takes a little bit of soul searching.

don't worry about how little or much you know right now, it took us all a whole lot of time to get to the different places we're at today.
there are many interesting discussions hidden in the past, regarding gender.
i was once even more clueless than what you are right now.
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orie

Your gender experience is fascinating and unique. And thanks to you testimonies here, I realize more than ever that it doesn't seem to hold any connection to the experience on 'this' side of the gender. In our eyes, feminine and masculine in one person doesn't read complementary, but rather exclude one another and render the person X or genderless. In our eyes (I emphasize), the result is exactly the same whether a person identifies both male and female, or neither male nor female, and all we read  is  - 'genderless'. 
  Our experiences don't seem to translate into one another, unless ending up with a nonsensical translation. To give an idea: being part-time male or female sounds like being both alive and dead at the same time, or neither, or more the one than the other at different times. I have no idea how you can mentally live this reality. But you do, you are striong, and I admire you (without understanding). :( :embarrassed:
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Sammy

Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 08:35:34 AM
Your gender experience is fascinating and unique. And thanks to you testimonies here, I realize more than ever that it doesn't seem to hold any connection to the experience on 'this' side of the gender. In our eyes, feminine and masculine in one person doesn't read complementary, but rather exclude one another and render the person X or genderless. In our eyes (I emphasize), the result is exactly the same whether a person identifies both male and female, or neither male nor female, and all we read  is  - 'genderless'
  Our experiences don't seem to translate into one another, unless ending up with a nonsensical translation. To give an idea: being part-time male or female sounds like being both alive and dead at the same time, or neither, or more the one than the other at different times. I have no idea how you can mentally live this reality. But you do, you are striong, and I admire you (without understanding). :( :embarrassed:

Well, there is a reason why majority consider themselves binary (maybe even without being aware of that). Because they think that one can only have a single set of qualities, attributable to one particular gender. Really, I often wonder if all transpeople by simple fact of their existence manifest the non-binary approach towards gender. Yet, most of them feel (or do not comprehend) that and shun non-binary thoughts for simple desire to be accepted within cisgender community (in other words, not to stand out). Yet, I cannot and will never comprehend how a person who has lived X years in the shoes of one gender can simply forget and leave that previous life behind. Or even reject it as "not being lived by his/her true self". Someone must have lived that life... who was that person? Where is he/she now?
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Shantel

Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 08:35:34 AM
 
  Our experiences don't seem to translate into one another, unless ending up with a nonsensical translation. To give an idea: being part-time male or female sounds like being both alive and dead at the same time, or neither, or more the one than the other at different times. I have no idea how you can mentally live this reality. But you do, you are striong, and I admire you (without understanding). :( :embarrassed:

It's ok, nothing to be embarrassed about! Here's a concept and no one has to be religious or even believe the story as anything other than allegory to be able to understand this a little further.

When Adam, supposedly the first real human was created he possessed both complete male and female attributes according to the story. But since he was the first of his kind and no mate could be found he was put into a deep slumber and the XX female part of him was drawn out to create Eve. This in turn left him with an XY chromosome as evidence of that event, Eve was fully female and Adam now fully male for the sake of mutual fellowship and procreation, thus the creation of the cis condition which doesn't preclude the possibility and even that probability that non-binary androgynous humanity have been here from the beginning and that cis genders are simply spin-offs to accommodate the business of populating the planet. This isn't cast in stone, but is food for a little more thought beyond one dimensional thinking.
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ativan

Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 08:35:34 AM
Our experiences don't seem to translate into one another, unless ending up with a nonsensical translation. To give an idea: being part-time male or female sounds like being both alive and dead at the same time, or neither, or more the one than the other at different times.
Alive and dead at the same time? Or neither as in not existing at all?
It's obvious to society, but not to cisciety that gender is very diverse and that this concept of only two genders and nothing between is false and borders on ignorance.
From my viewpoint, it is the binary cis that seem to be only one dimension in their thinking, as if they are dead on one side in their world view.
I would rather be dead than to be confined to such a small empty box of thought that only allows me to think in one imaginary term of gender.

The binary gender is imaginary to a large degree, studies have shown the most cis people consider themselves to fall in a 80/20 kind of gender.
At the very least. Yet you deny even the small 20% part of yourself.
How do you even get through life thinking in only one dimension when your mind is trying to tell you your not?
It must be horribly frustrating to live behind this mask of false expectations of who you are, it is no wonder you find some kind of connection.
But your description of it has to be taken as false itself, by your own inability.
Your own refusal to even try and think in terms of more than two imaginary genders that you can only be one of.

Everything in life is somewhere on a middle ground and not at the very ends, an imaginary place you have bought into...
You aren't as binary as you have all fooled yourselves into thinking you are, by this mass buying into of the idea of binary gender.
It must be very limiting in thinking, which seems apparent to me that you do.
I can't even begin to imagine how utterly sad it must be to go through life as denying that you indeed do have traits of more than this imaginary belief that you are only this or that and not a part of all that there is to offer a person.

It's like saying you will and can only eat vanilla ice cream when there is obviously chocolate and so many other flavors available to you.
That you have to make a choice for life that you can only have either vanilla or chocolate and that the other flavors don't exist.
Because you have bought into this imaginary idea that you can only eat the flavor assigned to you at birth.

These concepts of gender as a strict binary are nothing more than opinions that have been handed down over countless generations.
To the point that cisciety today is comprised of mostly gender bigots, people who look down on anyone who is different.
Cisciety even determines that one of those binary genders is superior over the other, an off shoot of this bigotry, or maybe the root of it.
I don't know, I wasn't raised by bigots in my life, I was taught that they are limited in their abilities to think in broader terms like the rest of society..
I refer to your kind as the cisciety as opposed to the more enlighten people who make up the majority of people we all think of as society, which we are a part of.
Yet you and your kind who fail so grandly at the concept of gender, you have your own place, cisciety, a dimensionless way of thinking.
I can see by your writing, I can sense that you are indeed hiding your own gender and refuse to acknowledge that you do have traits of your other so called gender in you.
I meet people, I see people, I interact with people all day long like you, and trust me, I can see the different side of this so called binary in every single one of you.
I see it, I feel it, I sense it.
It isn't hard to do, everyone has multiple components of this so called binary gender in them.

Open your eyes, your mind if you possibly can and you'll see it too, if you can manage to crawl out of the binary box you confine yourself to.
If you wish to consider yourself binary, I don't care.
A lot of people do because of the self imposed bigotry that cisciety has bought into and now own and have to declare it true.
You are after all, ignorant enough about gender, even your own that you have to refer to us alive and dead at the same time?
You are typical of those who latch onto an idea that has no merit and is disproved over and over.
Yet you cling to the ideas that if it was good enough for daddy and his daddy it is good enough to you.
Your closed minds that there is only a black and white world of gender, yet there never has been.
It's a misconception you bought into and cling to because you own it.
The very large portion of society that does indeed have the capacity to understand that being able to think in far more diverse terms than vanilla or chocolate,
is really thinking in reality, as every person has the capacity to do.

I can't imagine the sadness and loneliness of forcing oneself into believing they are only able to think in a single dimension.
This is a universe of diversity that far more people than you could possibly know, do think in terms of more than one pitiful way that gender has to be.
It never existed as male or female, that is a construct that cisciety bought and clings to and denies that anything but their own bigoted thinking will allow.
Cisciety is ruining the ability of the rest of society to move on to bigger and better things by your limited ways of thinking...

Yah we are strong, but we have to be in the face of such narrow minded thinking.
We aren't inherently strong, we are the artists, the writers, the musicians, the poets and troubadours that you all admire so much, we aren't strong, we are real.
I don't know whether to be sad for you and your condescending attitude, or simply disgusted by your inability to see the truth in front of you.
Alive or dead? No, no no, that is ciscietal thinking, a zombie existence of a sort, to resign yourself to thinking in only one dimension of gender.
No, it is you who are either alive or dead by those standards of thinking, in that singular way of thinking, in a world that has many dimensions.
No, No, No,... it isn't us who are alive or dead, that belongs to cisciety and it's limited capability to think outside it's box it's afraid to step out of.
Ativan
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orie

I don't know, most people (all, if you like) exhibit a mixture of the male and the female, and the fact is, they don't experience it as problematic. There definitely is a gender continuum, but hardly as arbitrary and chaotic as you see it. Most people with aversion to gender stereotypes do not doubt their own gender. You see, there is huge difference between being a male or a female with traits of the opposite gender (at 80/20 ratio or whatever) and identifying as both male and female, or as neither. The latter is predictably confusing, for everyone involved, the fomer isn't.
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Mark3

Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 08:35:34 AM
Our experiences don't seem to translate into one another, unless ending up with a nonsensical translation. To give an idea: being part-time male or female sounds like being both alive and dead at the same time, or neither, or more the one than the other at different times. I have no idea how you can mentally live this reality. But you do, you are striong, and I admire you (without understanding). :( :embarrassed:

I also come from a CIS background, and even though I didn't know all of the terms and explanations of how our minds work, I inherantly knew there was more to me than just a male, it was never something I just never "got"..? Do you ever feel just unhappy and alone being you.? I did for years, just trying to be happy riding the magical CIS bus along day to day, cuz that's what I was told to do... When I came here, I was helped by others and able to for the first time get off that old bus, and be the whole me that I always knew was there.. I accept and love myself so much more now, I have to pinch myself to make sure its real.. And I am real..! To the CIS folks writing above and not being able to understand, I don't know what to tell you..? Maybe to keep trying.? To reject all the stuff you've been taught, and look openly into yourself without fearing what anyone else will think..? Maybe all of the above..?
I feel sad for you, because life holds so much more, and you don't sound able to even see the beauty in it..?
"The soul is beyond male and female as it is beyond life and death."
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Dread_Faery

I feel like shrodinger's cat, being alive and dead at the same time
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ativan

Orie, the only thing confusing here is the confusion that you personally are experiencing.
There isn't a continuum, there are components, pick and choose.
If a person doesn't pick any, what is so confusing about that?
Should we call the gender police and tell them there's a person out here who refuses to choose?
You have a choice between many good things and many bad things.
You choose none of them.
Would you be confused?
And would anyone care?
Cis talk the talk, they have never walked the walk.
It's insulting to try to make us believe you know what gender is to us.
If you have a question, ask it, but don't pretend like you know the answer and we asked you a question.
Ativan
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orie

I don't understand it, what do you pick and choose? You sure don't mean your gender?
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