That is the key, Orie.

You have not yet opened your mind to understand.  In order to do this, you will need to consider, that there are vast differences in perception of gender.  One that is bound to only one way of identification, is one that cannot see the truth, like seeing only one side of a square area, you cannot see the entire object, your eyes are trained to only see one side of the square area, which becomes your reality, but we see the whole object, and more than that.

Gender is an elusive thing.  Forced gender is a terrible thing, I came from a place of forced gender, the damage is horrific, the pain immense, the healing is slow.

Open you eyes, see if you can see the truth, unburden yourself, you may then see us in our beauty.  But to limit non binary identity is futile, we left that behind us long ago, discovering validity, uniqueness, and the truth of who we are.

Forced gender is not healthy.  Far from it.  It can actually kill, it has before here on this forum, it must never do so again.

And yes my dear ones of the forest, keep this one out of the forest thread please.  As a little favor to me, if you will.  To many painful memories are in this, visions of a past I wish to see gone, inhuman brutality that is best left alone.

---Satinjoy

Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 05:30:19 PM
I don't understand it, what do you pick and choose? You sure don't mean your gender?

I know for certain that no-one here wants to enter into a contentious conversation here with you Orie, and I for one appreciate your interest in discovering for yourself what this is all about. So I am speaking for myself here only, and my stuff may not resonate with others here as we are all different and that in a and of itself speaks to the concept of being non-binary. I had originally wanted to transition from male to female, but I came to the point mid-way into my transition somewhere about 7 - 10 years into it that I experienced a complete change of heart and began to realize that there was a place somewhere in between where I would be happy and it's where I really fit in. I'm married to the same woman now 45 years and we're still very much in love with each other. I am a combat veteran having been in the US army paratroops for two enlistments and fought in a war, so this should be an indication to you that there is something really legitimate here and that we are not freaks of nature after all.

Bad word, freak.  Used to hurt.   Not criticizing Shantel here.

There is one thing that will create anger quickly among those of us who are trans, and that is the invalidating our our gender identities.  Be aware of this please.

You see my profile.... I have no diagnosis, only non binary, and I have one of the best shrinks in the country.  It cannot be put into a box or a category.  It simply is.  And then, we learn to free ourselves.  We discover who we are, and we celebrate it.  No box, no concern over cis understanding, we are concerned with the truth of who we are.  Not a distortion. The truth.  That may seem strange for a Cis to understand, but nevertheless, it is the reality of who we are.

See if you can free yourself too.  Certainly from binary thought processes.  It would be hard, you see one paradyne all your life, you have to go outside yourself and your comfort zone, and look within.   You may be happier.  You may be more open to the unique.  This is a place of the unique.

Confrontation is painful to me.  So are so called negative emotions.  I need to go now. 

Watch the triggers everyone.  They are here.

SJ.

Sorry. I just think it is unnecessary suffering. Not a revelation, not a visionary power, a punishment. It is possible to enjoy gender diversity without doubting your own gender identity, and identity in general. Nobody should be put through the misery you're going through. I don't know why you've been given this terrible gift, maybe there is a reason. Satinjoy, Shantel 

I  m maybe wrong but in a way i feel that when you get both you nullify or reduce one or the other when you get closer to 50/50 than 80/20 , the 80 is lessened but the 20 grew , and from the perspectiveof the 80 its for sure reduced , and i believe some peoples prefer being in a particuar percentage of each, while some others are more fluid about it .
And at the same time i m not sure it nullify in a way either because it can help one "side" to grow when the other one is present or more present if they make a dance and if x was wich the percentage were based on can become 2x
But but i m just speculating :x i dont consider myself non binary or androgynous and i actually like to be on one side of the one dimentional thing , altough its a bit unconvenient at time .
Opning our minds is not always easy either i think , it can confront to many unpleasant things
but pleaseant too i believe.

Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 06:19:51 PM
Sorry. I just think it is unnecessary suffering. Not a revelation, not a visionary power, a punishment. It is possible to enjoy gender diversity without doubting your own gender identity, and identity in general. Nobody should be put through the misery you're going through. I don't know why you've been given this terrible gift, maybe there is a reason. Satinjoy, Shantel 

Oh my...
That is what you got out of this discussion..?

I hope this topic can be closed / locked soon...!

I can feel this harming my friends here now...

Its not right that someone who shows so little concern with our feelings be allowed to bring such discontent and negativity here...

I'll stop myself then. I see whatever I ask or say will cause pain and discomfort.

Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 07:00:22 PM
I'll stop myself then. I see whatever I ask or say will cause pain and discomfort.

Go then, be warmed and be filled and may God bless you!

Orie

Discomfort is always experienced when the existing model or paradigm is questioned, critiqued, rejected and invalidated.  This is the natural order. We learn, we grow. I don't criticize your view. You are just at an early stage in your thinking, discovery and journey

This happened with flat earth believers, earth centric models of the universe, Newtonian mechanics and creationism.  If your model works for you and it helps you understand yourself and others, then enjoy. It's just that we have moved well beyond your current paradigm

Safe travels

Aisla

Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 06:19:51 PM
Sorry. I just think it is unnecessary suffering. Not a revelation, not a visionary power, a punishment. It is possible to enjoy gender diversity without doubting your own gender identity, and identity in general. Nobody should be put through the misery you're going through. I don't know why you've been given this terrible gift, maybe there is a reason. Satinjoy, Shantel 

Suffering? Living in the binary world caused me suffering. Being honest to myself about my gender identity was freedom. Being able to be honest to the world is priceless. Like Shantel, I started this journey thinking a strict binary transition was in my future. As I transitioned and got to know myself better, I realised that I'd gotten to a point where I was content. Oops, seem to have missed the binary. Oh well, no big deal, I'm happy.

Quote from: Aisla on September 15, 2014, 07:10:41 PM
Orie

Discomfort is always experienced when the existing model or paradigm is questioned, critiqued, rejected and invalidated.  This is the natural order. We learn, we grow. I don't criticize your view. You are just at an early stage in your thinking, discovery and journey

This happened with flat earth believers, earth centric models of the universe, Newtonian mechanics and creationism.  If your model works for you and it helps you understand yourself and others, then enjoy. It's just that we have moved well beyond your current paradigm

Safe travels

Aisla

Well, I'm sorry, with all due respect, but I have to react here, despite my promise, for I strongly disagree. Is this necessary, this air or superiority, this visionary promise for the mankind? There is no discovery to be made here, there is no new paradigm. We all operate in the same paradigm, we're all juggling with the same two balls, the male and the female, all tapping from the same two sources, only to a varying degree. All unorthodox gender expressions define themselves in relation (positive and negative) to the male and the female.  There is no escape from this fact. We're all trapped in this world on the same conditions.
Rant over.

Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 07:42:23 PM
Well, I'm sorry, with all due respect, but I have to react here, despite my promise, for I strongly disagree. Is this necessary, this air or superiority, this visionary promise for the mankind? There is no discovery to be made here, there is no new paradigm. We all operate in the same paradigm, we're all juggling with the same two balls, the male and the female, all tapping from the same two sources, only to a varying degree. All unorthodox gender expressions define themselves in relation (positive and negative) to the male and the female.  There is no escape from this fact. We're all trapped in this world on the same conditions.
Rant over.

What is male?
What is female?

"Unorthodox gender expressions" really only define themselves in relation to male and female because we are forced to.

I got no sense of superiority from Aisla's post, just a straightforward description of what can happen when a paradigm changes - and it gives some examples.

Quote from: kelly_aus on September 15, 2014, 07:55:57 PM
What is male?
What is female?

"Unorthodox gender expressions" really only define themselves in relation to male and female because we are forced to.

I got no sense of superiority from Aisla's post, just a straightforward description of what can happen when a paradigm changes - and it gives some examples.

Forced by? I bet your answer is by society:)
But the fact is, the absolute majority of people are absolutely comfortable with their gender and are not forced by anyone or anything to accept it and at the same time they allow themselves a lot of freedom of gender expression. There is no built-in tension here.
I kind of feel like I'm stating that all people have two legs and you counter this by insisting that some of them have one or none.

Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 08:14:02 PM
Forced by? I bet your answer is by society:)
But the fact is, the absolute majority of people are absolutely comfortable with their gender and are not forced by anyone or anything to accept it and at the same time they allow themselves a lot of freedom of gender expression. There is no built-in tension here.
I kind of feel like I'm stating that all people have two legs and you counter this by insisting that some of them have one or none.

Well, if society would step outside it's binary for a moment, perhaps I could explain. But no, I'm forced to explain myself in terms of male and female. I find, generally, that society has no real issues with how I present myself. Individuals, however, frequently feel free to be dismissive of my identity - mostly because they cannot understand it.

As Aisla pointed out, humans views on things that were considered fact in the past have changed. We are simply on the leading edge of a new change, one that is also being acknowledged by the medical and wider science community.

Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 07:42:23 PM
Is this necessary, this air or superiority, this visionary promise for the mankind? There is no discovery to be made here, there is no new paradigm. We all operate in the same paradigm, we're all juggling with the same two balls, the male and the female, all tapping from the same two sources, only to a varying degree.

It sounds as though you trying to correct our misguided beliefs, trying to bring us all down to your level of understanding, so you can relate to how we think, feel, and see our world..

I'm so sorry that you can't experience what we experience, thus you refuse to even consider it a possibility.?

When I feel the gender that is me, I don't feel part male and part female, I feel unique to those labels, something that is beyond the interpretation you suggest, something that has no name, and needs no name.. It is a form of freedom that I've never felt, and perhaps you will never know how it feels, but please don't try and demean our beliefs and real life experiences by trying to tell us they don't exist, or we are being somehow punished...

Everyone here has been very caring towards you and tried in every way, till we are blue in the face from trying and re trying, but it seems all has fallen on deaf ears..?

I don't know what else to do or say...?
I have to get away from this topic now...
Take care..

Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 07:42:23 PM
Well, I'm sorry, with all due respect, but I have to react here, despite my promise, for I strongly disagree. Is this necessary, this air or superiority, this visionary promise for the mankind? There is no discovery to be made here, there is no new paradigm. We all operate in the same paradigm, we're all juggling with the same two balls, the male and the female, all tapping from the same two sources, only to a varying degree. All unorthodox gender expressions define themselves in relation (positive and negative) to the male and the female.  There is no escape from this fact. We're all trapped in this world on the same conditions.
Rant over.

Sorry orie, but what you think is correct is only your imagination that has gone in the same stupid direction for a long time.
The cis world is ignorant and hate filled for anyone who is different, who says they are different.
You simply don't get that you are so completely wrong about what you think when it comes to gender that you really have nothing of any importance to us.
It was explained, you missed the point, like someone who walks into a wall every time they try to leave the room.
It is you who doesn't have a gender, it is a made up set of rules that the cis live by to compensate for the fact that they cannot understand it, comprehend the reality of what gender is.
There is nothing wrong with us, but we have terrible things happen to us all the time because of the cis views about gender.
The terrible gift is the one you send us every day in the way you treat trans people.
I'll put it in the way I hear so often when I listen to cis people.
You're worthless and are not wanted.
This is the 'terrible gift', right back atcha...
We got it from you.
Ativan

Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 06:19:51 PM
Sorry. I just think it is unnecessary suffering. Not a revelation, not a visionary power, a punishment. It is possible to enjoy gender diversity without doubting your own gender identity, and identity in general. Nobody should be put through the misery you're going through. I don't know why you've been given this terrible gift, maybe there is a reason.

I disagree.

Non-binary is having freedom - being cis is equivalent to punishment because whether you like it or not, society loves to slot you into little boxes.

Being raised as a cis-female was one of the most painful experiences of my life - going through puberty, the freedom I had as a child was taken away from me, I had pressures, standards and rules forced upon me due to the biological sex I was born as. Isn't that so terribly silly?

I had these expectations thrust upon me - that if I did not like my female body, if I did not like the idea of becoming pregnant or having children of my own, if I did not like the idea of having sex, if I did not like long hair... then I would be looked at weirdly - even more so if I did not act like a stereotypical tomboy and/or lesbian. Don't like stereotypical female stuff? Well, you MUST be a tomboy or a lesbian! Don't like stereotypical masculine activities... then what on earth ARE you? You must just a confused woman, don't worry, one day, you will grow up and have children like everyone else!

These damaging "rules" caused me anguish for over six years. It is not imagined, it is very real. Please do not mock people's experiences or tell them what they are wrong. It is rude. 

It was also this rigid binary thinking that made me realize, "Well, if I am unhappy being a female, what about being a male?" Because at the time, society continued to persist that there is only MALE or FEMALE, I had no idea that you could exist outside the binary entirely. I had convinced myself that I was a man. Four years on Testosterone, it came to my attention that passing or identifying as a man does not make me happy. I realized I originally wanted my female breasts and genitals removed - this did not mean I actually wanted a male body as I previously thought, oh no, I desire a genderless body.

I rejected being both female and male because I cannot identify with either binary. Where does that leave me?

Non-Binary. It gives me the freedom to express however I want. If I want to wear a button-up, flannel shirt with a pink tutu and knee-high boots, I will wear it with pride and not give a hoot what anyone thinks!

Struggling with gender identity is never a punishment, it is a path to a greater self-awareness. I'm sorry you cannot see it that way.     

Quote from: Aisla on September 15, 2014, 07:10:41 PM
Discomfort is always experienced when the existing model or paradigm is questioned, critiqued, rejected and invalidated. 

This hasn't been true for me at all. Maybe that's because I often don't subscribe to the popular view. But even when my own views are questioned or challenged, I don't necessarily feel discomfort. I like inquiry, exploration, discussion, an exchange of ideas. I like to change, grow, evolve. I certainly can't be the only one like this.

Topic locked