As for me I am who I am, and I present as how I feel: a middle aged woman who is still very young at heart with all her faults and fears, and her positive traits as well. The good and the bad equalizing me into normality. And so far who I am and how I present seems to work pretty good. I don't like the term "passing" either, but somehow I do so quite well. I also don't associate with other people trans or cis based on their appearance, nor am I afraid to be seen with any transwoman no matter what she looks like for fear of being outed. So far it hasn't happened but if it does it does. I base my friendship with someone on the person they are inside. Not their looks.

Having said that, I am after all human and I do have a few friends that may never pass, and I'm ashamed to even admit of thinking this in my mind. I would never openly voice these opinions though for that would just be plain rude, and I'm very very not that type of person. I have one friend who asks me for help from time to time picking out outfits and makeup, and I'm very happy to help her and anyone I can. I have another friend who I don't get to see often enough, who dresses kind of flamboyantly for a woman of her age but she's happy and fun to hang around with. As long as she's happy and content with herself I'm happy for her.

Basically I am me and I am happy. Passing for me is just icing on a much larger layer cake. I hope this doesn't make me "passing arrogant."

Peace everyone.
Ally

Quote from: Allyda on September 18, 2014, 09:34:00 PM
As for me I am who I am, and I present as how I feel: a middle aged woman who is still very young at heart with all her faults and fears, and her positive traits as well. The good and the bad equalizing me into normality. And so far who I am and how I present seems to work pretty good. I don't like the term "passing" either, but somehow I do so quite well. I also don't associate with other people trans or cis based on their appearance, nor am I afraid to be seen with any transwoman no matter what she looks like for fear of being outed. So far it hasn't happened but if it does it does. I base my friendship with someone on the person they are inside. Not their looks.

Having said that, I am after all human and I do have a few friends that may never pass, and I'm ashamed to even admit of thinking this in my mind. I would never openly voice these opinions though for that would just be plain rude, and I'm very very not that type of person. I have one friend who asks me for help from time to time picking out outfits and makeup, and I'm very happy to help her and anyone I can. I have another friend who I don't get to see often enough, who dresses kind of flamboyantly for a woman of her age but she's happy and fun to hang around with. As long as she's happy and content with herself I'm happy for her.

Basically I am me and I am happy. Passing for me is just icing on a much larger layer cake. I hope this doesn't make me "passing arrogant."

Peace everyone.
Ally

Just eat the cake an enjoy the icing Ally. I have been looking around and I have been into the city today and will be tomorrow and you may be surprised at who can pass and who can't. I have seen women, cis women that look more manly than you or me. Just sayin'.

Hi,

Well if this person is real to start with then have a go at myself ,  and see who will still be the stronger of the two of us,  See what is said about an intersexed female ,

try self confident self assured and confidence to stand in front of over , 3 Million people and give talks to many other 100,s 1000s, of people be well known and accepted for who i am as a person first and as a normal female, 

i sure dont look female enough to pass or blend in let alone a pretty looking female and as a woman ,

Each of us has detail about us that makes us who we are ,   What i find the ones who lash out seem to not have much going for them selfs wheres their self esteem are they happy in  them selfs or do they have issues they cant work through ,

so to lash out is their way of dealing with and making them selfs look better or they hide behind their own disabilitys lack of self worth and no self esteem ,

All so many females who are natal born are like my self dont look all that female looking woman , yet they like myself still female,   maybe this person has a very narrow minded eye sight,   and does not see what is real and part of real life,

If you happen to see this person again you can take what i,v said here and use it if youd like to , and its from myself

noeleena,  Loch-head,  from NZ,,

...noeleena...

I guess I'm lucky since I was fairly passable even before HRT at 34 but I did get some interesting insights from my local community.

First of all in any conversation I had with other trans girls about passing and "accepting places to go" I'm always told "you don't count"
Secondly I got told up front that since I was transitioning and able to pass I should not be hanging around the trans community since it would "tarnish my reputation"
Thirdly other trans girls assume that it's all just genetic, granted some is but it's a ->-bleeped-<- load of work, physical exercise, voice training, hair removal of all kinds, makeup, mannerisms, etc

I'm proud to walk down any street or any mall with my trans friends no matter how passable or non binary they are but I do expect them to put some effort in and be sensible, if they insist on wearing mini skirts that are inappropriate or for that matter a leather fetish suit I might not join them for another stroll through a public place but I think that goes for any friend of mine trans or not.

Quote from: antonia on September 18, 2014, 11:09:34 PM
I guess I'm lucky since I was fairly passable even before HRT at 34 but I did get some interesting insights from my local community.

First of all in any conversation I had with other trans girls about passing and "accepting places to go" I'm always told "you don't count"
Secondly I got told up front that since I was transitioning and able to pass I should not be hanging around the trans community since it would "tarnish my reputation"
Thirdly other trans girls assume that it's all just genetic, granted some is but it's a ->-bleeped-<- load of work, physical exercise, voice training, hair removal of all kinds, makeup, mannerisms, etc

I'm proud to walk down any street or any mall with my trans friends no matter how passable or non binary they are but I do expect them to put some effort in and be sensible, if they insist on wearing mini skirts that are inappropriate or for that matter a leather fetish suit I might not join them for another stroll through a public place but I think that goes for any friend of mine trans or not.

C'mon Antonia what fun is it not drawing attention?  I really don't care what anyone wears. Usually I am the odd one out. But usually normally dressed though unless I am feeling kind of frisky maybe? It just all depends. before a gig I am to the nines. After I am a train wreck.

I'm not saying that the mini skirt and 4" heels don't have a place, I just don't think that place is a downtown shopping mall at 4PM, 10PM at a drag club and who cares but ......

I have friends who do not pass, nor do they try to pass.

One of them looks like a man with boobs. Sorry to be so blunt but it paints the best picture. She doesn't really dress feminine either and she is really overweight.

Another looks really feminine and would pass visually but her voice is deep. She's a college professor and I have no idea how she stands up in front of students and teaches every day in that voice. One person did ask whether she is a man or woman on professor review sites... 

Would I hang out with them? I would and I do. I am not ashamed. Why? They are braver than me. I admire their courage.

But I wish that for their own sake they'd take better care of themselves. The obesity in particular is a problem and I'd hate for them to die of some sort of disease early on. But I only think that way because I care. It's NOT about appearance, it's about health.

That said, I am going to do my BEST to pass. Why? It's just something I want. It would make me feel more whole and better about myself.

Quote from: Squircle on September 18, 2014, 02:52:31 PM
There's another point that's been made on this thread that I do have strong feelings about, and that's the 'you're not feminine enough' argument. I wear jeans 98% of the time, usually just with trainers. I ride a motorcycle, and I like football (soccer) and violent video games. I get really annoyed when other trans women feel that they can pass judgement on this and try to tell me that I should be smiling all the time, or gliding gracefully into rooms. It's an outdated and frankly strange version of womanhood. And some trans women do come across as strange pastiches of what they think a woman should be. I'll never say anything to them, I'll even smile politely when they do suggest I wear heels more (or, as one support group member actually said to me once, that I should hold back on expressing strong opinions in public) but it really p***es me off. I am me, and I started this process so I could live a life true to myself, not to fit in with someone else's expectations of who I should be or how I should act or dress.

My thoughts exactly. I spent my entire life wearing the mask of being male and I'm certainly not going to trade that in for a new mask based on what someone's idea is of what it means to be a trans women.

Hopefully as time goes on our community will be able to heal from our societally programmed internal transphobia.

I would like to add that even though I'm 49 going on 50, I'm very lucky I still look pretty good in short shorts/mini skirts and a halter or low cut tank top or sleeveless mini cut sun dress. And I do live in Florida after all and in this heat it just feels better and much cooler not wearing an overabundance of clothes. If I didn't have the figure for them, I wouldn't wear them. But I do and IMHO there's nothing wrong with it. However I'm usually wearing sandals with these outfits with modest heels. I don't break out the 4"+ heels unless where I'm going it's appropriate.

I due to unfortunate circumstances didn't get to enjoy my younger years as me, who I really am, so in my mind I'm very fortunate I still look good in skimpy outfits. So while I still got it I'm gonna enjoy it! I'm sincerely sorry if this attitude offends anyone. But there's nothing wrong with a 49 year old woman who still has the legs for it and still looks good showing it off a little.

I am picky about my outfits tho and wear colors that match and aren't flamboyantly bright, and aren't overly suggestive if you get the idea. Where I live I seem to blend in fine. Hell, my widowed neighbor friend is a couple of years older than me and she rocks short shorts and a bikini top! I don't wear stuff this revealing mind you, and save my bikini tops for the beach. But she's cis, 53, and looks great in them.

Ally

I got accused of arrogance and passing privilege, not because I'm judgemental but because I dislike the term and believe that if you stop worrying about whether you're being perceived as female then you're more likely to be perceived as female. I think people instinctively pick up on nervousness, and if you spend your entire life worrying about how other people perceive you, then people do pick up on it. I think people mostly give the people they interact with casually on a day to day basis the benefit of the doubt - are they presenting as female? Then they're a woman. However if sense that the person their interacting with is nervous with no obvious reason, then they'll likely start trying to figure out why.

But apparently that little nugget of information is arrogant.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on September 19, 2014, 03:56:14 PM
I got accused of arrogance and passing privilege, not because I'm judgemental but because I dislike the term and believe that if you stop worrying about whether you're being perceived as female then you're more likely to be perceived as female. I think people instinctively pick up on nervousness, and if you spend your entire life worrying about how other people perceive you, then people do pick up on it. I think people mostly give the people they interact with casually on a day to day basis the benefit of the doubt - are they presenting as female? Then they're a woman. However if sense that the person their interacting with is nervous with no obvious reason, then they'll likely start trying to figure out why.

But apparently that little nugget of information is arrogant.

This is dead on.  I was clocked left and right when my demeanor was "off" early on.  The day I ran out of sh*ts to give about what anyone thought of me was the turning point for me, and all the pieces fell into place. 

Seems to me that everyone has their own definition of arrogance, I guess that is no surprise. That doesn't sound arrogant to me Dread_Faery, it sounds like good advice.

The thread started talking about a t-girl who was purposely bad mouthing others simply because they didn't measure up to her standards, you can't help measuring people up sometimes, it's human nature, but the problem is if you broadcast your opinions in the wrong way.

For the record I 'pass' ok these days but if any of you girls out there wanna go for coffee in the York area I don't care what stage of your transition you are at or how you dress/identify I am totally up for some socialising/shopping/sightseeing!

One post to end them all:

Uhm... .... I wear minis, and I guess most of my clothing is quite revealing... I'm young, it looks good on me, and it's what I want to wear.. And guess what? I have great legs, so it'd be a waste to hide them...  Plus... I'm not going to dress like a 40 year old, espesh when around friends.. That makes ya stand out more!

No, this does not make me a s-word.. Nor does it make me arrogant either, I wear what I feel comfortable with and act as confident as I can... Now, if people see that as me being arrogant, it must be coz they are jealous... I try to be as supportive as I can for everyone, and always tend to put others first.. 

Also.... I don't like the word 'passing', it's never been about 'passing' and it never will, I'm just lucky in certain aspects.... Yeah of course I do have one or another unwanted 'feature' but I think self-esteem has a lot to do with it too...  And you can see this in pictures too, I mean a lot of people don't 'pass' simply because of the expressions they have, way they sit and walk, etc.... And that is something that has a solution! Which on top of all is free... Some people have to learn to smile more and keep their heads high (and if you stand straight, sticking you tummy in and shoulders backwards, it'll give you a lot better figure... You've no idea how many people I've seen do this wrong....

I think it's wrong to judge other people based on their appearance, but I don't see the harm in caring about passing for yourself.  Everyone has a differet set of priorities and I respect those who don't care about passing.  There is no need to judge someone else for this, especially if they are happy.  However, I do feel passing is very important for me personally.  And while I wouldn't judge or insult those who say passing doesn't matter, I feel a different way about myself and my own path.  But what works for me isn't what works for others and vice versa.  Sadly, I don't feel I can pass yet, so it does drive me crazy and obsess over it. 

Quote from: Dread_Faery on September 19, 2014, 03:56:14 PM
But apparently that little nugget of information is arrogant.

Alas, there are a lot of people who feel that there is a single "right" way to do it. I fully believe that's the origin of the criticism I received that my transition was "too easy" - I had done it in the ways that fit me and were comfortable to me and they felt that by bypassing the parts I didn't want to deal with I had "cheated."

I'd just totally lmao at them...ugly and man-like? If saying that floats their boat oky, but it makes them look pretty dumb lol

Quote from: bluebirdx88 on September 20, 2014, 07:31:42 AM
Uhm... .... I wear minis, and I guess most of my clothing is quite revealing... I'm young, it looks good on me, and it's what I want to wear.. And guess what? I have great legs, so it'd be a waste to hide them...  Plus... I'm not going to dress like a 40 year old, espesh when around friends.. That makes ya stand out more!

No, this does not make me a s-word.. Nor does it make me arrogant either, I wear what I feel comfortable with and act as confident as I can...

Well, I'm a 49 year old and I wear these^^___^^. I may not be young but it looks good on me too. What's wrong with re-capturing a part of my youth I never had? As long as I have the body for this type of clothing I don't see the problem, and I've never been one to follow society's stereotypes.

Quote from: Agent_J on June 22, 1974, 03:53:18 AM
Alas, there are a lot of people who feel that there is a single "right" way to do it. I fully believe that's the origin of the criticism I received that my transition was "too easy" - I had done it in the ways that fit me and were comfortable to me and they felt that by bypassing the parts I didn't want to deal with I had "cheated."

^^___^^Everyone should do what is best for them to make transition as easy on them as possible. Yes, I'll agree some of us have it a little luckier in some areas than others but that doesn't make our transition insignificant or any easier on us. From the outside looking in it's very wrong IMHO to pass judgement on anyone for As a matter of fact some of us have literally been through hell to make it to where we are now. All of us have our own unique problems that may or may not be easily visible to everyone else. Also IMHO, it's impossible to "cheat" your way through transition. Just my $.02.

Ally

Quote from: Allyda on September 21, 2014, 04:07:25 AM

Well, I'm a 49 year old and I wear these^^___^^. I may not be young but it looks good on me too. What's wrong with re-capturing a part of my youth I never had? As long as I have the body for this type of clothing I don't see the problem, and I've never been one to follow society's stereotypes.

^^___^^Everyone should do what is best for them to make transition as easy on them as possible. Yes, I'll agree some of us have it a little luckier in some areas than others but that doesn't make our transition insignificant or any easier on us. From the outside looking in it's very wrong IMHO to pass judgement on anyone for As a matter of fact some of us have literally been through hell to make it to where we are now. All of us have our own unique problems that may or may not be easily visible to everyone else. Also IMHO, it's impossible to "cheat" your way through transition. Just my $.02.

Ally

My point exactly . If it suits you and you're comfortable it's your right and not arrogance.

Quote from: Jess42 on September 18, 2014, 06:11:55 PM
Really? A young transgirl on facebook ranting about how ugly and manlike trans women? Nothing about passable? Or un passable? Sorry Riley. But please don't feed the trolls. Anybody or anyone can be anything on the internet. I could be a 300 pound gorilla that learned how to type sitting in my mamma's basement with a Cheetos fingerprinted T shirt and sitting in my whitey tighties just to PO everyone here at susans off.

But big ol' bears, don't take offense. I love bears BTW. God... Never mind. I won't even go there but the contrast between smooth skin and hairy.

The truth is I am a MTF non binary but becoming more binary MTF sitting in cutoff shorts and tank top drinking a little Port wine, listening to Black Sabbath's 13 album trying to make you see that I can be who I wanna' be on the internet. The last part is true though but seriously I am Cindy Crawford just making fun of everyone here that is transgendered. I don't think she would but see how easy it is to be who you wanna' be? But seriously I am Cindy Crawford listening to Black Sabbath's 13, I wish.

But seriously Riley. This whole post was leading to a point and that point is never let anyone bring you down or focus our mind off the prize. that Prize is up to you. If I was to walk into a club, male or female, I would send a drink you way. Whether I was male of female at the time. Don't let other people bring you down. There are way too many idiots on the internet.

I actually didn't feed the troll, it just struck a chord reading that. I know what internal transphobia is and possibly everyone here. It is something we all need to break out of because we'll be miserable ->-bleeped-<-s. Honestly I felt sorry for the girl since it was painfully obvious she had so much loathing in her. It is  upsetting that so many can hold these views because society tells us the worst thing you can be called is a woman. We are at the lowest according to patriarchy because we go so vehemently against it. So many guys I've seen are so appalled by the idea that they might be perceived as feminine in any slight way. I feel really bad for those with that hate because it is ignorance and fear that we so actively teach.