The girls are right about the smile thing.  You don't need to have a grin like a Cheshire Cat all the time, but... ok actually maybe I could put it a slightly different way - you need to soften your face.  You can still look serious but in a gentler, softer sort of way, if that makes any kind of sense?  I didn't see any mention about if you're on HRT or anything yet, but if you're not (or you're just starting), then that will most likely do most of that work for you too   In the meantime try what the others said about the subtle "girly smirk" because it does help a lot

What I think is really the problem though is your hairline - it's got that male squareness to it and exposes a lot of your forehead (female hairlines are lower and have a more rounded shape to them, whereas mens are higher like yours and either square or M shaped (my unfortunate affliction, so you're doing better than me at least lol ).  If I cover up your forehead / hairline with my hand, I'd say you pass 100% in all those pics in spite of that "hard" look I mentioned above.

FFS of course can sort out the hairline and in your case it certainly doesn't need much work, but in the meantime you may have to consider working in some bangs to your hairstyle to cover the hairline / forehead.  Alternatively there are clever visual tricks you can do with makeup to distract attention away from it.

As for exactly why you get such mixed opinions, it may be as simple as the pics you're showing people / the pics various individuals are choosing to focus on.  In the pics you've posted here, some of them you'd pass and others you wouldn't.  Take these two for example:




In the first one, the light source is behind you and you're silhouetted quite a bit.  The contrast between your forehead and hairline is quite low which makes it a lot less noticeable, which in turn (if what I've said above is correct), makes you look more fem.  In the second one the light is in front and the contrast between your forehead and hairline is quite high, highlighting the more masculine shape of your hairline far more than in the first pic.  If I'd chosen to focus on that first pic, I'd have said you pass.  If I'd focused on the second, I'd say you wouldn't.  Hope that makes sense

Anyway hope that helps and point you in the right direction hun <3 *hugs* <3

Quote from: riversong on July 26, 2014, 08:26:51 PM
Something that's been bothering me that I can't quite wrap my head around. Whenever I ask if I pass--both here and elsewhere--I get completely mixed reactions. I know that's to be expected because different people have different opinions, but I've never seen opinions on passability vary to the same extent as with me.

For example: some people have said that I completely pass and they would have had no idea I was trans if I hadn't told them, other people say I'm 100% masculine and don't pass at all. Sometimes I get gendered female even in male mode, other times I get gendered male. Even down to individual features I get mixed opinions. I have relatively large lips and most of the time people say that they're very feminine, but on a few occasions people have said they're masculine precisely because they're large. Some people have said that the fact that I have pronounced cheekbones makes me look masculine, while other people have said the very same feature is feminine and attractive. Some people have said that my nose is very feminine and attractive, while others have said that it looks masculine and prevents me from passing.

This just seems really weird that I would get such a mixed range of opinions. Again, I understand that different people have different opinions, but it seems abnormal that they would vary this much. I'm not really looking for an evaluation on whether or not I pass, I'm just wondering if anyone has any idea of why this happens? Is there something abnormally androgynous about my face or something? It's very confusing and frustrating

Here's a few pics to give some idea...












[img width=3 those 00 height=400]http://i.imgur.com/lGYQYup.jpg?8893[/img]

In all honesty, you will probably need FFS in order to pass all of the time time, as your forehead and browline have male traits, but that's just my opinion, go with what your heart is telling you.   

Quote from: KiraD on September 24, 2014, 04:35:11 PM
The girls are right about the smile thing.  You don't need to have a grin like a Cheshire Cat all the time, but... ok actually maybe I could put it a slightly different way - you need to soften your face.  You can still look serious but in a gentler, softer sort of way, if that makes any kind of sense?  I didn't see any mention about if you're on HRT or anything yet, but if you're not (or you're just starting), then that will most likely do most of that work for you too   In the meantime try what the others said about the subtle "girly smirk" because it does help a lot

What I think is really the problem though is your hairline - it's got that male squareness to it and exposes a lot of your forehead (female hairlines are lower and have a more rounded shape to them, whereas mens are higher like yours and either square or M shaped (my unfortunate affliction, so you're doing better than me at least lol ).  If I cover up your forehead / hairline with my hand, I'd say you pass 100% in all those pics in spite of that "hard" look I mentioned above.

FFS of course can sort out the hairline and in your case it certainly doesn't need much work, but in the meantime you may have to consider working in some bangs to your hairstyle to cover the hairline / forehead.  Alternatively there are clever visual tricks you can do with makeup to distract attention away from it.

As for exactly why you get such mixed opinions, it may be as simple as the pics you're showing people / the pics various individuals are choosing to focus on.  In the pics you've posted here, some of them you'd pass and others you wouldn't.  Take these two for example:




In the first one, the light source is behind you and you're silhouetted quite a bit.  The contrast between your forehead and hairline is quite low which makes it a lot less noticeable, which in turn (if what I've said above is correct), makes you look more fem.  In the second one the light is in front and the contrast between your forehead and hairline is quite high, highlighting the more masculine shape of your hairline far more than in the first pic.  If I'd chosen to focus on that first pic, I'd have said you pass.  If I'd focused on the second, I'd say you wouldn't.  Hope that makes sense

Anyway hope that helps and point you in the right direction hun <3 *hugs* <3

Oh thanks for the help I felt like my hairline was bad, but I wasn't entirely sure. I can feel it starting to come forward now after having been 3 weeks on hormones, but it'll probably be a while before it grows in enough to be noticeable. I hope some more time will make the difference

Quote from: missymay on September 24, 2014, 05:45:57 PM
In all honesty, you will probably need FFS in order to pass all of the time time, as your forehead and browline have male traits, but that's just my opinion, go with what your heart is telling you.   

Aren't you supposed to wait until you've been on HRT for a while before deciding if FFS is necessary? I think I've heard that a few times from people. I believe it was like a year on hormones that you should wait, but I'm not entirely sure.

It's true that HRT will feminize your face, but it will not change bone, and there's not much soft tissue covering our forehead and brow bone areas, so these areas usually aren't changed very much. 

Quote from: riversong on September 24, 2014, 06:09:09 PM
Oh thanks for the help I felt like my hairline was bad, but I wasn't entirely sure. I can feel it starting to come forward now after having been 3 weeks on hormones, but it'll probably be a while before it grows in enough to be noticeable. I hope some more time will make the difference

Aren't you supposed to wait until you've been on HRT for a while before deciding on FFS? I think I've heard that a few times from people.

Yes, your best bet is to take things step by step, see a Dr., get on HRT, smile more, and then decide for yourself the direction you wish to go from there

Hugs

Quote from: missymay on September 24, 2014, 06:25:19 PM
It's true that HRT will feminize your face, but it will not change bone, and there's not much soft tissue covering our forehead and brow bone areas, so these areas usually aren't changed very much.

Oh yea, I know that, I'm just going by one of the posters said above--that hairline is also a big factor when it comes to the forehead. It's been coming forward a bit for the few weeks I've been on HRT How much it will come forward will just be a matter of luck, I guess...

Quote from: riversong on September 24, 2014, 06:09:09 PM
Oh thanks for the help I felt like my hairline was bad, but I wasn't entirely sure. I can feel it starting to come forward now after having been 3 weeks on hormones, but it'll probably be a while before it grows in enough to be noticeable. I hope some more time will make the difference

Don't mention it hun, glad I could help

And don't get me wrong, it's not "bad" - at least it's not the M shape which is the male extreme.  More than anything it's the corners and the general height that gives it away, but even then it's only on a subtle level.

Quote from: riversong on September 24, 2014, 06:09:09 PM
Aren't you supposed to wait until you've been on HRT for a while before deciding if FFS is necessary? I think I've heard that a few times from people. I believe it was like a year on hormones that you should wait, but I'm not entirely sure.

Yes, definitely wait for HRT to do its work and settle down first.  That way you can see exactly what needs more work and to what extent.  Otherwise you could end up making changes that aren't needed / not making changes that are needed etc, and no one wants to have any more surgery than is absolutely necessary.  I only mentioned it because - as far as I'm aware - HRT doesn't do much in changing your hairline.  Then again that's just what I've read - I'm very early in this whole process myself so I could be wrong there x