You folk have no idea how much I'm in love with your rule that one cannot advocate the separation or exclusion of members of our community. I've been doing a lot of reading about the origins of the LGBT liberation movement, and reason why we were so strong was because we all recognized the common oppression of sexuality and gender expression. Now, everywhere I turn, I see the promotion in the GLBT community to break the bonds that made us such a force to be reckoned with.

Apparently, 40 years ago the trans umbrella included not only transsexuals and transgenderists but drag queens/kings, cross dressers, intersex individuals, and even feminine men and masculine women we would today qualify as cisgender. Today, however, this diversity is dying out. Drag is always put down for being just performance, and even accused of promoting trans oppression. Cross dressers are also dismissed for the same reason: just wearing clothing is consider not good enough to be trans. Some people in the trans community even perpetuate the belief that cross dressing is solely sexual based, and in turn claim that it promotes the fetishism of trans people. I have never seen an intersex person or organization have any interest associating with us, and of course feminine men and masculine women have been booted out because they are now defined as cisgender even though they too suffer punishment for their gender expression. I even heard the proposal that the word transgender be "taken back," and only include transsexual people!

I completely understand the disgruntlement toward the GLB part of are community. The general treatment of gay marriage as the final frontier of civil rights is absurd, and the whole gradualization strategy of "lets get the less radical stuff out of the way first, and then we'll focus on you" is quite frankly insulting and I believe ineffective for real social change. However, to suggest that transgender folk need to separate entirely from the GLB community is too much. To do so is to throw away our history and strength.

For me, this separatist attitude makes me feel like I have to choose between being a gay man and being a trans man. Heck, the separatist attitude has made me question if I was transgender at all! I felt not only unwanted by the community but that my mere existence was a threat to them. It made me believe that the best way to promote trans rights is to remain a "straight cisgender ally" and never transition.

What happened over the decades? I felt so enlightened and elated to read the origins of the trans community, and its alliance with the GLB and other liberation movement. Why are we abandoning this? Why are we choosing to move backward? It makes me fear for our future.

I see (and agree) with what you're saying about unity. There is strength in numbers, and it is never a bad thing to have friends.

And indeed, our definitions of what it means to be trans have narrowed. No one that you mentioned should be excluded; it is not right to brush off someone else's gender identity (or sexual orientation, for that matter) to validate your own.

With that being said, I do believe that gender and sexuality need to be kept separate because mixing them leads to a lot of confusion and ignorance.

This is not to say that we should not all support each other, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a part of both communities, but honestly, the less ignorance on the part of the masses, the better.

This is only my opinion and not meant to offend anyone.

Kyler.

I am probably going to make people mad. *sigh* Prepare the torches and pitchforks.

Quote from: Satyrane on October 20, 2014, 09:54:54 AM
Drag is always put down for being just performance, and even accused of promoting trans oppression.

To be fair, there have been issues with drag queens slinging around the offensive slur "->-bleeped-<-" and then acting like trans women, the people against whom that slur is used most with intent to hurt, had no right to be upset. While not all drag queens do that, that behaviour does promote trans oppression.

Quote from: Satyrane on October 20, 2014, 09:54:54 AMCross dressers are also dismissed for the same reason: just wearing clothing is consider not good enough to be trans.

This may be due to the fact that it's clothing. Some of us (me at least) think the idea of clothing having a gender is ridiculous. Some of us are tired of people getting gender and expression mixed up. We're tired of hearing "why don't you just be a crossdresser?" or "why don't you just be butch?"

Quote from: Satyrane on October 20, 2014, 09:54:54 AMI have never seen an intersex person or organization have any interest associating with us,

You'd have to ask the intersex people who don't want to be associated with us.

Quote from: Satyrane on October 20, 2014, 09:54:54 AMand of course feminine men and masculine women have been booted out because they are now defined as cisgender

Some of us HATE gender roles with a burning passion. Some of us are also sick to death of people getting gender confused with gender roles.

I don't know why you'd feel you have to choose between being gay and being trans. I don't get along with LGB community for a few reasons, but that doesn't stop me from being bi. Even if I didn't transition, I'd still be a guy. A very unhappy guy in a female-shaped body, but still a guy.

Personally, I want people to just wear what they want, be who they are, and stop pretending gender roles are anything more than illogical. Do I think we need to work together? Yes. But people don't need a label to do it. To me, labelling people who could be classified as "masculine" or "feminine" and gendering clothing goes against that goal.

Quote from: Edge on October 20, 2014, 11:06:33 AM
Personally, I want people to just wear what they want, be who they are, and stop pretending gender roles are anything more than illogical. Do I think we need to work together? Yes. But people don't need a label to do it. To me, labelling people who could be classified as "masculine" or "feminine" and gendering clothing goes against that goal.

To put an end to labels...that would be the day, huh.

Kyler.

I can't speak for intersex people, not being one (to my knowledge). But we have intersex people in our support group. Also here and in my group on FB many of whom do use the term transgender to apply to them. As for drag queens/kings, well they are an unusual group. I believe some of them ARE trans and some are not. I know a guy who is a drag queen (nice guy), who is a cis gay man. He just enjoys it. It's fun and theatrical and so on. But there are other drag people who are trans. I know a guy who did drag as a drag king for years. He ended up transitioning because being drag was NOT enough for him. He still does it for charity and so on. (I know others who are trans, but not so well.) Crossdressers (i believe ->-bleeped-<-s is rather an unpleasant term) are normally straight cis males. But there are many exceptions and many trans women who are cross dressing for years (often in childhood) because it was all they could do. (What's a cross dressing woman called-- nothing it's never called cross dressing.)

Funny thing re: the umbrella. I do Trans 101 for a local trans center and I just got the presentation so I could do them by myself if needed. The umbrella slide disappeared. I asked why. Too complicated I was told, re all the drag king/queen thing, the cross dresser thing, etc. You have to explain too much. I suppose it's more of a 201 slide.


--Jay

Quote from: Satyrane on October 20, 2014, 09:54:54 AM
You folk have no idea how much I'm in love with your rule that one cannot advocate the separation or exclusion of members of our community. I've been doing a lot of reading about the origins of the LGBT liberation movement, and reason why we were so strong was because we all recognized the common oppression of sexuality and gender expression. Now, everywhere I turn, I see the promotion in the GLBT community to break the bonds that made us such a force to be reckoned with.

Apparently, 40 years ago the trans umbrella included not only transsexuals and transgenderists but drag queens/kings, cross dressers, intersex individuals, and even feminine men and masculine women we would today qualify as cisgender. Today, however, this diversity is dying out. Drag is always put down for being just performance, and even accused of promoting trans oppression. Cross dressers are also dismissed for the same reason: just wearing clothing is consider not good enough to be trans. Some people in the trans community even perpetuate the belief that cross dressing is solely sexual based, and in turn claim that it promotes the fetishism of trans people. I have never seen an intersex person or organization have any interest associating with us, and of course feminine men and masculine women have been booted out because they are now defined as cisgender even though they too suffer punishment for their gender expression. I even heard the proposal that the word transgender be "taken back," and only include transsexual people!

I completely understand the disgruntlement toward the GLB part of are community. The general treatment of gay marriage as the final frontier of civil rights is absurd, and the whole gradualization strategy of "lets get the less radical stuff out of the way first, and then we'll focus on you" is quite frankly insulting and I believe ineffective for real social change. However, to suggest that transgender folk need to separate entirely from the GLB community is too much. To do so is to throw away our history and strength.

For me, this separatist attitude makes me feel like I have to choose between being a gay man and being a trans man. Heck, the separatist attitude has made me question if I was transgender at all! I felt not only unwanted by the community but that my mere existence was a threat to them. It made me believe that the best way to promote trans rights is to remain a "straight cisgender ally" and never transition.

What happened over the decades? I felt so enlightened and elated to read the origins of the trans community, and its alliance with the GLB and other liberation movement. Why are we abandoning this? Why are we choosing to move backward? It makes me fear for our future.

I see your point, and I really want a united group which sadly is not always the caise.
we are alot of people and very diffrent, so making us an united group are rather difficult, however
how the comunities works depends from place to place. Someplaces it more stiff and somewhere more openminded and filled with varity.

I dont know the reason, I think maybe because we are more people with more attention, and because the distance between us as in "status" have become more seperated from low and high hiraki on how much acceptance we own.

There's nothing wrong with the general sentiment of unity and support, and I support anyone's rights and expression, but I guess I just don't see your point here. I don't really like the idea of being randomly lumped in with a bunch of people who I don't feel I have anything in common with. I think all that does is serve to confuse all our individual issues. And I don't see why I need to be shoehorned in with other groups in order to get things accomplished. We should care about each other and others' rights because we're all part of humanity, not because we see each other as somehow belonging to our special unconventional gender expression club or whatever.

Quote from: Pikachu on October 20, 2014, 03:26:52 PM
There's nothing wrong with the general sentiment of unity and support, and I support anyone's rights and expression, but I guess I just don't see your point here. I don't really like the idea of being randomly lumped in with a bunch of people who I don't feel I have anything in common with. I think all that does is serve to confuse all our individual issues. And I don't see why I need to be shoehorned in with other groups in order to get things accomplished. We should care about each other and others' rights because we're all part of humanity, not because we see each other as somehow belonging to our special unconventional gender expression club or whatever.

Thank you. Exactly.

The main thing is, in my opinion anyway, is that too many people seem to want to look down on someone or at the least see themselves as better than, so they don't want to be in the same subgroup as those people. People by nature have some sort of bias and it shows quite a bit in discussions like this.

And keep in mind, that if you keep throwing members of the transgender umbrella off the bus because you don't wish to be associated with them, then your bus could get canceled for lack of riders eventually. A stupid analogy but then consider the source...

Don't worry so much about what you don't have in common, but look for the things that you might have in common and embrace that.

To people who say we don't have anything in common with drag queens, crossdressers, femboys and butch gals, guess what?  You're wrong.  We are all oppressed for the same reason: we violate traditional "rules" of gender, and face discrimination, harassment, and violence because of it.  We aren't exactly the same and don't have the exact same needs, but as a community we are facing resistence for the same reason, and for that reason I think we are all in the same boat.  No, I don't think it.  I know it.  Anyone who says that "these people aren't like me, they aren't trans" is part of the problem.

And hey-labels suck.  I really, really hate labels.  But that does not mean we can't unite as a community.  There's a huge difference between refusing to be labeled and refusing to organize, and fight oppression under one banner.

I'd agree with this:

Quote from: Pikachu on October 20, 2014, 03:26:52 PM
There's nothing wrong with the general sentiment of unity and support, and I support anyone's rights and expression, but I guess I just don't see your point here. I don't really like the idea of being randomly lumped in with a bunch of people who I don't feel I have anything in common with.

And I'd agree with this, too:

Quote from: Jaime R D on October 20, 2014, 03:35:13 PM
And keep in mind, that if you keep throwing members of the transgender umbrella off the bus because you don't wish to be associated with them, then your bus could get canceled for lack of riders eventually.

I don't feel like I have to have something in common with someone in order to support them.  E.g., I'm not gay and I have no intention of ever getting married, but I support same-sex marriage nonetheless.  When you support openness and progress generally, you're supporting it for yourself.

I note the strategic blunder a lot of our bitterest enemies make.  They're so insecure about themselves that they're uncomfortable with those who are different.  Everybody has to be the same as them.  The mistake here is that if we're judging people, excluding them, then anybody can be judged and excluded for the least little reason because nobody ever fits the mould perfectly.  Which means that the insecure person remains insecure because he can never be sure that he himself won't be excluded.  In his efforts to exclude others he may only be building towards his own exclusion.

The way to be secure is to be all-inclusive.  When everybody is accepted, then that person will be accepted himself and so he no longer has to feel insecure.  As they say, nobody counts unless everybody counts.  So even if I don't have anything in common with someone else, it still makes sense to support them.  (Even if some of them don't support me, which some of them don't.  But that's another story.)

Actually, I can't unite with people who enforce what I'm against. I am very much against gender roles. Do I think we should unite together against them? Yes. Do I think perpetuating the idea that they exist helps in any way, shape, or form? Heck no.

How does out community support gender roles?  I'm very much against them.  Sure, there are a few old-school transsexuals who still cling to them, but for the most part we all disavow them on some level big or small...

Labelling someone as trans because they are "feminine" or "masculine" enforces gender roles. It perpetuates the idea that gender roles = gender instead of the idea that anyone of any gender can have whatever traits they have. Same with clothing.

Yes, but even if you oppose the labels themselvs, like I do, these people still are violating traditional gender norms.  Like we are.  I don't like those words either!  We're just in the same boat as they are...

This issue is I'm being told I owe something to the community. Hello? I started transition and was mostly done before even talking to the community.

Ugh. Seriously, people? How is it I can make a statement saying we should care about ALL people and then be told I'm somehow part of a problem? That is ridiculous. Just because I am not the same as someone doesn't mean I can't support them and be against the discrimination they face.

If this stance somehow makes me a problem to you, Sasha, well tough. Because I'm going to keep having my opinions and I'm going to keep being against the discrimination you face whether you like me or not. I don't need to be part of some club to care about people.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on October 20, 2014, 04:09:52 PM
Yes, but even if you oppose the labels themselvs, like I do, these people still are violating traditional gender norms.  Like we are.  I don't like those words either!  We're just in the same boat as they are...

By that logic, pretty much every human being is trans because every human being violates at least some gender "norms" in some way and everyone is in the same boat. Then we'll have to find another word for those of us who are a different gender than the one we're assigned at birth because we do have different issues (like dysphoria and transition).
I'm not saying we shouldn't all support each other. I'm saying they don't need to be called trans for us to be on the same side.

Quote from: Pikachu on October 20, 2014, 04:14:56 PM
Ugh. Seriously, people? How is it I can make a statement saying we should care about ALL people and then be told I'm somehow part of a problem? That is ridiculous. Just because I am not the same as someone doesn't mean I can't support them and be against the discrimination they face.

If this stance somehow makes me a problem to you, Sasha, well tough. Because I'm going to keep having my opinions and I'm going to keep being against the discrimination you face whether you like me or not. I don't need to be part of some club to care about people.

^ Hear hear

No, no!  What I meant is that you're drawing lines.  "People I don't have anything in common with...".  Drawing lines is the problem the OP was pointing out, certainly didn't mean anything other than that.  Sorry if it came off that way hon :/

I've been saying that for ages Edge!  We're all trans, some of us are more trans etc.  And yeah, we do have moe extensive needs than the rest of the population (specificly medical care), but that doesn't make it an "Us and them" situation, does it?

No, but it does make it a "some of my issues are different from yours" thing. Which is not a bad thing. People are diverse and have diverse issues.
I think calling everyone trans due to gender "norms" enforces gender "norms." Not to mention that definition of trans alienates those of us who feel that gender "norms" have nothing to do with our gender and are insulted by the implication.