Jessica, to practically repeat what Taka said - some of us are naturally inquisitive.  I personally have an IQ of about 135ish, and I'm at my happiest when I'm asking questions and learning new things, whether it be about the world around me, or about myself.  People who tell me to stop asking questions often find themselves getting slapped across the face with a wet trout as I laugh, dance away and continue to wilfully ignore their silly request (and typically start asking *MORE* questions just to spite them yeh, I don't respond well to people *TELLING* me to do things lol (asking is fine, but telling me will send me flying in exactly the opposite direction)).

To me, curiosity is exactly what's made the human race what it is today.  We'd all still be living in caves if someone hadn't asked "hay, what happens when I rub these two sticks together?"   I love asking questions.  I love finding out new things.  I love then going on to ask more questions about the new things I've just found out.  Will I ever be satisfied?  I bloody well hope not lmao!

Quote from: suzifrommd on October 24, 2014, 12:41:48 PM
I did a thought experiment. I asked myself two questions:
...

I did the exact same experiment myself! ♥︎*Hugs*♥︎

These were my answers:

Quote from: suzifrommd on October 24, 2014, 12:41:48 PM
1. How would I feel if I never could be male again. Never hang with males as one of them, never be seen as even a little bit male, never act like a male, etc.

I'd miss some of my old male friends, but I know I'd make some great female friends too.  I've never had any trouble hanging out with girls even as a guy (in fact at uni I was considered practically "one of the girls" because all my friends I hung out with regularly were female lol ).  It'd be different to not act male in any way, but I'd forget about it after a few months.  I might miss one or two of my traditionally masculine traits a little, but again nothing I couldn't get over fairly easily.  I've never really had any masculine past times like sports or anything, unless you count science and technology, but more and more women are getting involved in that these days anyway, so I don't know if that'd count or not.  I would be kinda p***ed off if Goth, Cyberpunk, or Steampunk etc was considered "too masculine" for me to wear though lol.  Even then in the grand scheme of things, it'd be a minor sacrifice.

Quote from: suzifrommd on October 24, 2014, 12:41:48 PM
2. How would I feel if I could never be female, never hang with females as one of them, never be seen as even a little bit female, never act like a female, etc.

When I first did this experiment myself, I tried for several hours to tell my brain "you can't transition.  You'll never be able to transition.  It's not possible for you to transition.  You'll have to be a man your whole life and there's nothing you will ever be able to do to change that.  You will *NEVER* be female".  It took a while to really *believe* in my self-talk, but when I finally did - just for a split second - do you know how I felt?

It was like the entire bottom of my world just fell out.  Everything was empty and void.  I actually literally shivered just now simply for thinking about it as I wrote that.. yeh, that life would be just an empty shell of a human being walking around and existing, but never living.  You may as well replace me with a machine for all the soul I'd have left.  I may still be on this planet in body, but I certainly wouldn't be here in spirit anymore.

tl;dr version?  I'm just glad the option to transition is there.  'Nuff said ♥︎*Hugs*♥︎

Quote from: Taka on October 24, 2014, 02:06:01 PM
thinking is a dangerous sport to do, that's true.
but sometimes, it also helps. depends on how you do it...

i learned to take a break when i'm not getting anywhere.
just being is enough... and much of my thinking has been in order to learn not only who i really am but also to just be.... there were so many rules that my real self, almost every aspect of it, drowned completely.

without thinking. ... and my darkness is again one where i can find peace.

SJ

Thank you for this thread.  Now, while noting Jessica's truth, that you can over complicate and over think things, my thoughts on finding my core, overlay your view and that of Taka.

Perhaps because I have found meditation so powerful my sense is that my core, while non gendered, exists to guide, centre and help identify truth.  It is not dark and forbidding, but can be dark, safe and comforting, sometimes I end up visualising a purple lotus blossom or a moon, but it always represents truth, clarity, strength etc

At my core is the watcher.  It does not invest in fear, anger etc, it just observes.  When I start meditation it takes a while to quiet my mind and its frenzied thoughts.  With my ego running amok it is often  hard to get clarity.  But as breathing slows, and I let my thoughts scud like clouds across my mind scape, I find quiet.  I connect with my core, and with others.  I never really come away with great flashes of insight or self realisation but I always come away refreshed and am becoming more present, authentic and less ego damaged or ego driven..   

From this space how I serve and how I love is informed and empowered.  This means that I find that I am more available, more present and more connected.  I am less concerned with how I present, with how I think or with how I distract myself with my ego.  At this point I really don't have a sense as to my gender, it doesn't exist and is therefore irrelevant.  What is important is living and experiencing my truth and authenticity.

So long way round, I find my core through meditation.  It can be visualised but while I don't always find a colour I do find an awareness, a spirit, the watcher, the universal conscious perhaps ...  either way I find myself more present, less ego driven and more authentic.  I dont attribute or find gender at my core, I just am.

Hope this makes sense.  My journey is therefore perhaps more of learning, evolution and growth rather than effecting a particular transition.

Safe travels

Aisla

the watcher could be considered feminine gendered in comparison to effecting a transition

Quote from: Sosophia on October 24, 2014, 05:13:56 PM
the watcher could be considered feminine gendered in comparison to effecting a transition

Very true, but then I wonder ... I wonder whether the watcher is really concerned with ego driven physical interaction and thoughts rather than the core driven spiritual interaction ... Argh!!! Too many thoughts.  Breathe. ... Look for the space between the breaths .... No gender.... My core just is ...... Or is it? F,M, NB Orr just me  ??   Breathe .... Breathe. Recentre.....

Safe travels

Aisla

maybe that ego driven physical interaction is a form of spiritual interaction ? i like to see this  this way at times , but its just me

Quote from: Sosophia on October 24, 2014, 05:31:03 PM
maybe that ego driven physical interaction is a form of spiritual interaction ? i like to see this  this way at times , but its just me

Loving this thread

This is an intriguing perspective and possibly true, perhaps more spiritual when powered from the core and not by the ego.  Perhaps you could argue that any action is an expression, even if unthinking, or some reflection (whether authentic or flawed), of the spirit or core.

Safe travels

Aisla

i just am.
and then sometimes i'm gender as well.
but i am gender only when interacting with people, or thinking about interacting.
when i am just me and nothing else, the sense of gender disappears.

what is left is at times a feeling of my body being wrong. but the feeling is physical, like a tumor has grown somwqjere, or i have drunk an odd potion that messes up how i feel my emotions.
a distorted way of physical being, but without a sense of gender.
until i think of how having the right parts would make sexual encounters easier.
but that is again doing more than just being, it is an interaction with people. i'd never bother about what parts a cat sees me with.

so i get a feeling that gender identity is something created in the space between my self and other people. it holds importance how my own species sees me, would be different if there were only me, with no chance of atteaction one way or the other.

Quote from: Sosophia on October 24, 2014, 05:31:03 PM
maybe that ego driven physical interaction is a form of spiritual interaction ? i like to see this  this way at times , but its just me

and i m sorry i shouldt have put this here i went trough the same sort of anxiety and i tough that its because of my process for justification that i m doing the right thing with transition or claiming that i m a woman or others of  the kind that theses sort of other "concept" of feminine or masculine  makes go trough as if to take it in consideration but that was for me and feeling that cis peoples are lucky to not have such a process in there

Quote from: Taka on October 24, 2014, 05:36:49 PM
i just am.
and then sometimes i'm gender as well.
but i am gender only when interacting with people, or thinking about interacting.
when i am just me and nothing else, the sense of gender disappears ....?

so i get a feeling that gender identity is something created in the space between my self and other people. it holds importance how my own species sees me, would be different if there were only me, with no chance of atteaction one way or the other.

Taka

If at the core there is no gender (and this is what I experience) and gender only arises socially ie in the space between the self and others then is this the brain, the ego or the core at work?  I think that this is important because if it is purely the ego then gender is more akin to a social construct   Perhaps this is a legitimate view but my dysphoria demands and is only addressed by low dose hrt, so as I experience gender there is a biological element at work which may have been in turn influenced or caused during my development.

Time to stop now.  I have given myself a head ache, the sun is shining and bird song is calling me to the garden.

Safe travels

Aisla

Genre is a social construct. But it's constructed out of internal and external cues, including the interaction between your physical reality and your subconscious expectation of your physical reality. Well that's my thoughts on it.

Sosophis

No need to apologise. The great thing about this is that the only truth, the only paradigm that matters is the one that appeals, works and makes sense to you.  A feminine centre or core, why not?  It is a beautiful thought and a very powerful thought for binary folk!

What is truth and what is meaning apart from that which we endow it?

Safe travels

Ps. I am not sure that cis folk are particularly lucky.  Membership of the dominant group when you are unlikely to be a perfect fit may not that great a deal.  Knowing that as trans you need to understand and accept your identity is to me preferable to being cis and blindly accepting the strictures of cis membership.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on October 24, 2014, 05:57:24 PM
Genre is a social construct. But it's constructed out of internal and external cues, including the interaction between your physical reality and your subconscious expectation of your physical reality. Well that's my thoughts on it.

DF

Certainly agree it is partly a social construct but suggest that it is in bio/psycho/social in origin... But as internal and external cues have their foundation in social interaction, biology and the psyche, your synthesis also fits.

Now where did I put those head ache pills?

Safe travels

Sisal

for me its more like they have the body producing on its own the right chemicals and having the right reproductive system and not having to struggle with the society and peoples to get some of that , i think cis peoples can understand and accept themselves ,maybe not a lot of them, do it , but it seems much more peacefull than to have to get my body parts and chemicals , and to still pass trough the bias in the unconscious or conscious of somes others cis peoles that i cant be considered a girl/woman cause i was born with a something else

Quote from: Sosophia on October 24, 2014, 06:20:23 PM
for me its more like they have the body producing on its own the right chemicals and having the right reproductive system and not having to struggle with the society and peoples to get some of that , i think cis peoples can understand and accept themselves ,maybe not a lot of them, do it , but it seems much more peacefull than to have to get my body parts and chemicals , and to still pass trough the bias in the unconscious or conscious of somes others cis peoles that i cant be considered a girl/woman cause i was born with a something else

Sosophia

I know what you are saying and understand this.  Being trans does involve more work and stress.  However my wiring is such that I tend to the philosophical and spiritual rather than focus on the harsher reality of day to day life.  Perhaps it helps that because I am a deliberate optimist and also very comfortable,  I am and delighted, if not proud, to have found myself.  It took a while, but the journey was helpful and I am happy to find that I do like myself. The addition of a magic elixir, aka low dose hrt, nuance  in presentation with longer hair and facial hair removed.  All good....

Safe travels

Aisla

So how do we handle the merging of my gender identities into the core through ful acceptance and full ownership of all of it, making me now Nonbinary transsexual to heart, bone spirit mind and flesh, and owning it, able to celebrate it and not evade the full power and potential of being authentic through my whole essence?

No this is not over think this is raw and powerful identity unleashed.

Satinjoy

Quote from: Satinjoy on October 24, 2014, 06:38:02 PM
So how do we handle the merging of my gender identities into the core ..... through full acceptance and full ownership ..... making me .... authentic through my whole essence?

No this is not over think this is raw and powerful identity unleashed.

Satinjoy

This

Safe travels

Aisla

Quote from: Aisla on October 24, 2014, 06:04:31 PM
DF

Certainly agree it is partly a social construct but suggest that it is in bio/psycho/social in origin... But as internal and external cues have their foundation in social interaction, biology and the psyche, your synthesis also fits.

Now where did I put those head ache pills?

Safe travels

Sisal

Some people *cough*TERFs*cough* take the fact that we all construct our genders to mean that gender is not a valid thing at all. But just because something is socially constructed (to be honest the vast majority of ways we interact with the world are social constructs - language for instance), doesn't mean it's not valid or has a real effect on how an individual navigates the world. We literally build our gender from the ground up and then stick a shorthand label onto it in order to communicate that gender with the world. Your gender is valid because you say it is, built from the unique cues only you experience. Anyone who says otherwise is either ignorant or a wilfully trans-antagonistic, cissesexist bigot.

you mean the gender in language like the word "woman" being associated with a lot of things like behaviors , personality traits , appearances , clothes genre , set of feelings or  so on ?

Cool responses, everyone is thinking.

I knew I was different from birth.  Now I know why and who I really am,  got here through pain and therapy and sobriety and people and truth and surrounding myself with brilliant minds, by accident.

The learned genders aramy fluid ones, the core has sucked them in through total acceptance by being broken by fighting them, now I feel whole.

I hope others can get this too.   If they want.

Never would have got here without seeking truth and having the observing core that said this is feeling false, or this feels true.

It is a concept that frees me.

It is owning and respecting and celebrating who I am, after years of denial and self condemnation.

No more of those.  This is my truth and my passion.

Blessings

Satinjoy

Little too much ego here from me, sorry.

The saying is....to thine own self be true...

Without distorting that, can it be said as ....to your own core be true?

The question of assimilating gender into it is my current milestone.  It was one I did not expect to find.

In theater we act organically from center.  Source of energy, power, authenticity.  We search for it though yoga and meditation before taking the stage, even before starting the day.

With or without gender, it becomes a place of truth for us to seek our realities and our happiness.

The posts here show some of the ways we have found that.

Is that something you want too?

After all these years, I finally love my transgender  core, and more than transgender, my totality, and can live truth without fear.

So of course I am excited and try to share this concept, one I do not hear anywhere else but here or in the theater, one I think can add  to our lives and touch others in a wonderful way.

Blessings

Satinjoy