I think Fruity is absolutely right and a bus ride isn't any kind of test at all, unless someone is on their first ever day out. Fruity highlights a far greater test of teaching 25 teenage kids who are extreamely receptive and observant when it comes to gender...

I was talking only about the visual aspect of passing. Believe me, the bus thing is a killer, you are scrutinized to death by people of all ages and sexes who have nothing else to do. And people are in your face litteraly. Before even interacting, you got to pass visually.

Most people in the US never deal with public buses and don't know what I'm talking about.

OF course, if your voice is like a truck driver, its a deal killer.

There are "levels" of passing.

Quote from: Keira on October 13, 2007, 05:18:24 AM

I was talking only about the visual aspect of passing. Believe me, the bus thing is a killer, you are scrutinized to death by people of all ages and sexes who have nothing else to do. And people are in your face litteraly. Before even interacting, you got to pass visually.

Most people in the US never deal with public buses and don't know what I'm talking about.

OF course, if your voice is like a truck driver, its a deal killer.

There are "levels" of passing.

My first therapist, Gianna Israel, author of Transgender Care wrote a great article about taking a ride on public transportation to gauge the reactions, I will try to find it.

Early on, I used to get funny stares, now the only stares I get are men ogling me although not too long ago some little Asian women who only saw my back said "Excuse me, sir." I was slightly PO'd til I realized she reacted to a back.

Quote
There are "levels" of passing.

I agree.


Posted on: October 13, 2007, 10:33:42 AM

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Quote from: fruity on October 13, 2007, 04:37:34 AM

QuoteDoing a 20+ minutes ride on a not too packed bus and siting near the entrance is probably the toughest "passing" test there is. If you can make then, you can make it anywhere.

also, I completely agree with kim (berleigh), my experience invariably tells me that men are the ones who i find most difficult to convince. I rarely have problems passing with women at all. White anglo saxon men below 60. They are the most observant group in my experience, although, obviously, their observations, are absolutely wrong.

It really astounds me that anyone, especially a woman, would think that men are more observant than us. When I see a transwoman, she is not going to even know I read her and I am sure not going to blurt out, "Look, there's a man!"

Maybe you and Kim should take an acting class. (Actors are taught the skill of observation, that is how an actor learns to adapt a role by learning how real people move and interact.)

Link to Gianna's article.

Melissa, post FFS girls who are not too tall, I've seen a few and I doubt you could spot them in the street. If you interacted with them a few minutes, possibly you'd find them out (but its not a certainty). As for me, worked with groups of teens this summer and all my friends are in their 20's and none know and if there's something I'm adept at spotting, it is being read.

People wondering and being read is very different. If you saw me on the street, you'd surely wonder... But, being able to tell 100%, probably not.

I'm probably one of the 1000 women over 6 foot in the whole city (quebec people are not tall), a lot of people may wonder because of that... Pre-FFS, I had other manly signs than height, but now, its the only overt one.

But, I have a very small frame (my frame is considered small even for a women!, its smaller than most shorter women), I now wear size 8 blouses., size 8 dresses and 6-8 pants and skirts (remember I'm 6 foot tall).  I've got a 26.5 inch waist and 38 inch hips. I'm 158 pounds (185 last year) in spite of having a LOT of muscles on my thighs/core/buttocks (I can bike at more than 35mph with no wind, no joke) and still a bit of belly fat, without them I'd be 140 pounds and I'd still have a healthy weight according to my frame.

keira, your perceptions are relative only to you. You have know way of determining what I perceive or how I perceive it.

Many times, I feel the presence of another transwoman before any visual or auditory contact is made. Lately though, I have let go of my attachments to all of these harmful intrusions of thought. How others perceive me is completely beyond my control and meaningless.

I am also puzzled as to what the size of your frame has to do with the topic.

Yes, of course it's easy to pass when you are just walking around in a mall or on the street with people you don't even know and will never see again. It is a different story when you have to see the same people everyday and they start getting to notice all your behavior, scrutinize your facial structure and getting to know all the subtle and non subtle gestures, voice and behavior.

There are a lot of intimate interaction (not sexual or physical) that can get too close and kind of scary when you feel like you have something to hide.

Frame size relates to the topic because it helps a lot for passing.
If I was a large frame for 6 foot tall, then I'd stick out a lot more
and probably I'd feel my breast would be to small to.

If you work with male and female teens for a whole summer, you get a pretty good idea if you pass or not... Teenage boys in particular are not subtle when they read somebody, I've seen it plenty of time before. 

I had a cousin in that group (which knew but didn't tell) and she was my spy; the worse rumor was that the girls thought I was a robot because of how I was able to run even the youngest into the ground in training them... HEHEHE. Of course, its because I was a male track and field national level athlete that I can do that, but for them, I'm just a 40 year old who kicks their asses :-).

As to being able to "sense" TS, well that's where we part because I don't believe in that at all. But, hey, we all have our own beliefs.

Quote from: Keira on October 13, 2007, 01:58:16 PM
Frame size relates to the topic because it helps a lot for passing.

Sorry, I missed something then because I didn't think the thread topic was about how we pass individually although a lot of threads devolve into that.

QuoteAs to being able to "sense" TS, well that's where we part because I don't believe in that at all. But, hey, we all have our own beliefs.

My strong womanly intuition has served me well. I guess if one doesn't possess it, one might doubt it exists. OTOH that is kinda like a blind person denying that sight exists in others.

Quote from: Keira on October 12, 2007, 06:46:44 AMIf you dress blandly and are not too good looking (unpassable can come out as simply ugly to the person's who's not really scrutinizing) there is less of a chance that either men or women will care what gender you are.

Yep, that's how I spot the trans women - we're always the blandest dressed ladies there are. Seriously. We have a fear of looking chic and beautiful. We're princesses who transform ourselves into toads instead of the other way around. As long as we limit ourselves that way, we place ourselves inferior to other women.

Quote from: Hypatia on October 14, 2007, 12:06:04 AM

Quote from: Keira on October 12, 2007, 06:46:44 AMIf you dress blandly and are not too good looking (unpassable can come out as simply ugly to the person's who's not really scrutinizing) there is less of a chance that either men or women will care what gender you are.

Yep, that's how I spot the trans women - we're always the blandest dressed ladies there are. Seriously. We have a fear of looking chic and beautiful. We're princesses who transform ourselves into toads instead of the other way around. As long as we limit ourselves that way, we place ourselves inferior to other women.

I know this may sound odd, but some of us have to tone it down because we would like to avoid sexual harassment.  Not for being trans but for being female. 

I have my own days where I am more femme, than I have my days when I am not.  There is nothing wrong with being frumpy or bookish, and sometimes its not out of fear of being chic or beautiful or wanting to avoid attention.  On the contrary that is just how some of us are, our gender expression, well is pretty bland.  I feel more comfortable in a sweater and jeans sometimes than I do in a dress.  Not all of us are glamorous.   

I have also seen it stated that those who are just naturally nerdy and bookish women have an easier time passing.

Sometimes you realize part of who you are and well...normalcy, is not being glamorous or chic, because that is not who you are.     Sometimes that was part of who you were all along.  I know very chic girls who spend time in Manhattan and go shopping as well.

Its not that some transition from princess to toads, some of us are neither.  Some of us are just the quite bookish girls that are fine with who we are and do not care about being princesses or toads, and that we are more comfortable with being ourselves than being fashionable.

And I know that may seem bland.  I know it is probably thought to be for passing purposes.  The truth is passing is sometimes incidental when in reality you are just comfortable with yourself and your very nature is to be frumpy and bookish.  And as much as voice and personal behavior is important, those come much more naturally if you are comfortable with yourself and being yourself rather than acting in a way that may not be you.  And sometimes being Chic is not who you are at all.  That personal comfort is when passing just becomes incidental and no longer an issue, as you just begin to live your life. 

You can be "bookish" and attractive and stylish.



For me, those TS clothes often look either barely female and undifferentiated or ultra-conservative making the person look 20 year older; they do seem like an attempt at hiding in plain sight. Its as if they do not connect with their peers of the same body type at all.

Many TS I know basically are afraid of really dressing like their most stylish peers, instead dressing like their mother would dress in the 70's or early 80's i (I've seen a load of this).

Quote from: Keira on October 14, 2007, 01:47:00 AM
You can be "bookish" and attractive and stylish.



For me, those TS clothes often look either barely female and undifferentiated or ultra-conservative making the person look 20 year older; they do seem like an attempt at hiding in plain sight. Its as if they do not connect with their peers of the same body type at all.

Many TS I know basically are afraid of really dressing like their most stylish peers, instead dressing like their mother would dress in the 70's or early 80's i (I've seen a load of this).

Okay now I know what you are talking about.
Honestly I just dress how I feel, and its really not that conservative...its more just very casual at this point.  I have seen what you are talking about it NYC once, it does look really weird.

I tend to dress my office (which is very casual) and my subculture quite a bit.  But there is a difference in being stylish in a way thats just not me (NYC fashion) and having my own style.  I know this may sound silly and philosophical, but actually knowing how to dress to reflect yourself is a subject that is frequently on fashion shows like what not to wear.  (Okay revealing I am a bit hypocritical).  I personally am not trying to blend it at all at this point, because I don't really try, that just happens.  I guess a little bit of confidence goes a long way. But make no question, I am pretty darn bookish. 

The truth is I know nobody who really dresses in the way you are suggesting.  But most of my friends are under 30, which may explain for quite a bit of why this is not as much of an issue to me.

yep, passing isnt about how you look, it helps sure, but if you look like a total babe, but act like a football jock, people will wonder....
weirdly tho, i worry more about being seen in public, than interacting with people close. i LOVE interacting and talking, meeting new people, but im terrified of getting there!
My personal beef is with others, i know being happy in yourself is key, but for me, my happyness comes from being read as a normal girl. i dont want to be seen as ts, and the idea embaraces and ashames me, meh, my bagage, but true, if my happyness comes from being what others want, fine.
R

Quote from: Keira on October 13, 2007, 05:18:24 AM

I was talking only about the visual aspect of passing. Believe me, the bus thing is a killer, you are scrutinized to death by people of all ages and sexes who have nothing else to do. And people are in your face litteraly. Before even interacting, you got to pass visually.

Most people in the US never deal with public buses and don't know what I'm talking about.

OF course, if your voice is like a truck driver, its a deal killer.

There are "levels" of passing.

I ride on the London tube quite a lot and people are crammed into those tube trains, so you under a lot of scrutiny all the time. For me it's no problem. In London we have to use public transport all the time.....it really sounded silly to me when you mention going on a bus as we do it here all the time....

As for my voice, I've been blessed...

yeah, my voice leaves no doubt as to my gender, its awesome. i was on the phone to the students loan company (not told them of my name change just yet to avoid deleys) but after saying MR xyz, the guy proceeded to refer to me as miss, and luv throughout the coversation ><
R

Quote from: Keira on October 13, 2007, 05:18:24 AM
I was talking only about the visual aspect of passing. Believe me, the bus thing is a killer, you are scrutinized to death by people of all ages and sexes who have nothing else to do. And people are in your face litteraly. Before even interacting, you got to pass visually.

Most people in the US never deal with public buses and don't know what I'm talking about.

At least here busses are not really a test of passing.

Might be culture dependent but most people here just ignore everyone else on the bus.

Well I wish I could come to the point where I didn't care what people thought.  But the truth is, no matter what kind of mind games I try to play, it matters to me and it matters a lot.  Now it's not that I can't take being insulted.  I could handle that OK even if I didn't like it.  But all I've ever wanted was to be among women and be considered as one of them.  Not passing would make that impossible because I am not naive enough to believe that all women out there are so mature in their thinking that they would consider me female if they knew all about me.

As far as tests, I don't ride buses, but here are some of the interesting ones I've had:
-Sitting on a bench carrying on a conversation with two hairstylists
-Sitting at a bar for dinner and being among a crowd, carrying on casual conversations, being served by a beautiful girl waitress
-Waiting in line to buy lingerie while talking with another woman
-Sitting at a table and talking makeup with a makeup salesgirl
-Checking out of a hotel
-Oh, and of course there is the ever-popular having a conversation with a woman in the Ladies' Room.  (I was asked if I had an extra panty liner.)

Maybe people are just being nice, but I think I passed the above.  It gives me a great feeling, like being at home by a cozy fire.  Some things just feel right.

Kristi

From Chagdud Rinpoche's 'Gates to Buddhist Practice':

    "To understand how delusion arises, practice watching your mind.
    Begin by simply letting it relax. Without thinking of the past or the future, without feeling hope or fear about this thing or that, let it rest comfortably, open and natural. In this space of the mind, there is no problem, no suffering.
    Then something catches your attention--an image, a sound, a smell. Your mind splits into inner and outer, self and other, subject and object. In simply perceiving the object, there is still no problem.
    But when you zero in on it, you notice that it's big or small, white or black, square or circular; and then you make a judgment-- for example, whether it's pretty or ugly. Having made that judgment, you react to it: you decide you like it or don't like it. That's when the problem starts, because "I like it" leads to "I want it." We want to possess what we perceive to be desirable. Similarly, "I don't like it" leads to "I don't want it." If we like something, want it, and can't have it, we suffer. If we don't want it, but can't keep it away, again we suffer. Our suffering seems to occur because of the object of our desire or aversion, but that's not really so -- it happens because the mind splits into object-subject duality and becomes involved in wanting or not wanting something.
    We often think the only way to create happiness is to try to control the outer circumstances of our lives, to try to fix what seems wrong or to get rid of everything that bothers us. But the real problem lies in our reaction to those circumstances. What we have to change is the mind and the way it experiences reality."

Hi Fruity
Yes you are quite right, if one is going to go full time you must be prepared to adapt to the environment you work in. People at first will stare at you like your some type of alien from Alpha Centauri and it can be quite unnerving and you may feel like melting down between the cracks in the floor boards.

I am, well was a social worker. I think that once one has been doing this kind of work for so many years  there is part of you that will always be needing to go on a good rescue mission. When I transitioned that aspect of me never changed, for that mater compassion and caring for others was amplified.

I worked at a drop in center for street people and one for mental health consumers dealing with upwards to 50 people or more per day. Since I honestly cared for these people I quite quickly adapted to a personality not only I was comfortable with but also the people I worked with. It worked out quite well. The thought of being a transsexual woman adapting to the real world just kind of sublimated away into nothing. After a time I was just me doing what needed done during a work day. As for dress, I just wore the same as what ever any of the other girls on the staff wore.

I really don't know if I pass as the gender I represent but I did pass to the people I worked with and that was all that was really important to me.

Crowds like on a buss I can't do, not because of who I am but because I have had a life long phobia to where there are crowds of people. 

As for size, well I use to hate my size, 5'3" 125 lbs.  I really think now that it was certainly was a plus or a blessing towards my transitioning. Another blessing was a couple of girl friends, bless their little hearts, who encouraged and helped me, even supplying me with some clothes at the beginning. Actually a lot of the girls at my work donated clothes for me.

As for the gents, well what can you say, gents will be gents. They were kind of standoffish at first, staying away from the drop in, but after a while they began to come back. I had just as many close consultations with them as I did the girls. 

As for your story hun, all I can say is "wow!" that was nothing short of bravery in my books.

Cindy

surely your not MEANT to change who you are when you transition?
i certainly resist becoming someone else quite strongly.
R