Hi, Guys!

I'd like to ask a question if I can, and this on the subject of shame.

I know it's not every last T-girl, but undoubtedly the overwhelming majority of those I've talked to have agreed that a major hurdle they've had to get over is feelings of shame.  "I'm a guy.  Why should I want to be a girl?"  Or, "I'm a guy.  Why should I enjoy wearing girls' clothes?"  That sort of thing.

What I'm wondering is if you guys have had the same problem.  Is this a hurdle (in whatever fashion) that guys have to get over as well?

I'd be interested in hearing whatever thoughts you have on the subject.

Many thanks, and best wishes,
Foxglove

I've never felt it for a great deal of time but at the beginning of my transition there were a couple of asswipes here and there that would make me feel that way, like that I don't have a penis like them and that I should just go back to being a tomboy. I'm sure both sides experience it, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was more common among T-girls because of the whole male privilege thing in society.

For me, shame is more related to my body -- this is twisted, but I often have really strong feelings of shame because I have a female body, not a male one. So it's not being ashamed I'm trans per se, it's the fact that my body doesn't match my identity.

I agree that in many cultures it is more accepted for female-bodied persons to dress in a masculine fashion. There is certainly less stigmatization for it where I live than for a male-bodied person to have a feminine style. That said, I experienced a lot of shaming for not being "girl enough" in school and I'm sure it triggered feelings of shame and led to self-shaming. But conveniently enough I have pretty much suppressed all of these memories [emoji12] .

I used to feel shame about it. I guess for a long time I was ashamed because it made me weird and different and that caused me deny it for a long time. Then, when I started acknowledging it, I was ashamed because I didn't understand why I feel the way I do.

Hey Foxglove,

Think it's related to gender dysphoria... but it's something I've never personally experienced.  I was ready to ditch my guy clothes and hop right into them leggings, cardigans, camis, and skirts.  Now, I can finally wear and style myself to the way I've always wanted.  I honestly don't know how some (not all) cis women can let themselves go, get lazy, and not go with a certain style or fashion.  My fiance' even once said I am more girly than any other women he's ever been with.  <3  Take care!!

Quote from: Foxglove on November 26, 2014, 07:00:42 AM
Hi, Guys!

I'd like to ask a question if I can, and this on the subject of shame.

I know it's not every last T-girl, but undoubtedly the overwhelming majority of those I've talked to have agreed that a major hurdle they've had to get over is feelings of shame.  "I'm a guy.  Why should I want to be a girl?"  Or, "I'm a guy.  Why should I enjoy wearing girls' clothes?"  That sort of thing.

What I'm wondering is if you guys have had the same problem.  Is this a hurdle (in whatever fashion) that guys have to get over as well?

I'd be interested in hearing whatever thoughts you have on the subject.

Many thanks, and best wishes,
Foxglove

I felt pretty profound shame. Not with men's clothes, which thankfully are fairly destigmatized for female bodied people, but with the feelings I was having about my body, my identity. I literally used to talk to myself in the shower, like "Okay, birth name. No bull->-bleeped-<- today. You're a girl. Remember you're girl and that's all you'll ever be."

Sometimes I still struggle with it, tbh. I often feel guilty for what I perceive to be, on some level, a "ditching" of womanhood. A failure to be strong enough to stand by my sisters. Until my dysphoria rose to a peak where I felt like an infiltrator in woman's spaces, I thought of my self as a feminist and an advocate for all women regardless of race, creed, or body at birth. I still do, but as an outsider now.

Losing that part of my identity was hard. I used to feel ->-bleeped-<-ty all the time; I couldn't shake the fear: what if I ''really'' thought being a woman wasn't "good enough" and that was why I had to walk away? A lot of my life was spent turning it over in my head and wondering "Is this some sexist bs that I've swallowed? Do I just think that I'm doing womanhood wrong, and that's why I feel like I don't belong even though I do?"

And the bottom dysphoria, jfc! It was like a blow to my pride, admitting to myself that in this tiny way, maybe maybe maybe Freud wasn't so wrong when he talked about penis envy.

I still worry that my desire to transition is rooted in some societal nasty and that I'm making a big mistake. I still feel ashamed of moving away from femalehood. It's why I tried to ignore the voice in the back of my head, the one that whispers "They all know you shouldn't be here. What is that, bad drag? They can all see right through your disguise and they can tell you don't belong..." every time I present as female.

Edit: cleaned up the post now that I'm a little more awake.

Thanks to everyone for your replies.

Quote from: adrian on November 26, 2014, 07:33:56 AM
For me, shame is more related to my body -- this is twisted, but I often have really strong feelings of shame because I have a female body, not a male one. So it's not being ashamed I'm trans per se, it's the fact that my body doesn't match my identity. . .

Adrian, this is something I can relate to.  I don't feel any shame any more about being trans.  And I don't think it's really shame I feel about my body.  I'd say rather, embarrassment.  I don't like the idea of people knowing what kind of body I have--which would be a major reason why I'm not interested in any kind of relationship.

Quote from: captains on November 26, 2014, 11:48:00 AM
I felt pretty profound shame. Not with men's clothes, which thankfully are fairly destigmatized for female bodied people, but with the feelings I was having about my body, my identity. I literally used to talk to myself in the shower, like "Okay, birth name. No bull->-bleeped-<- today. You're a girl. Remember you're girl and that's all you'll ever be.". . .

And Captains, thanks for this post.  I find a lot of honest soul-searching here.

Shame is generally a response to learned social attitudes. The idea of "men wearing women's clothing" is still highly stigmatised and ridiculed in this day and age, it carries with it a lot of baggage that equates it with perversion, sexual deviancy, "not being a man", etc. There are plenty of gender police out there willing to point out and enforce these social laws. Shame is a very strong social control, it makes many people feel bad about perfectly normal but socially stigmatised behaviour. I have no shame about dressing as a woman but I do about presenting as male.

Quote from: Foxglove on November 26, 2014, 12:05:54 PM
And Captains, thanks for this post.  I find a lot of honest soul-searching here.

I often worry that I overshare on here, but I spent a lot of time feeling like a freak even amongst trans folks that I try and give more info rather than less, just in the hopes that someone is reading and going, ''oh thank god, me too.'' Glad it was interesting to you!

for me its more along the lines of feeling that i shouldnt have these feelings, that i was born female and i should have to stay that way.


but then again im a little messed up, so it may just be me.

Yeah, I still struggle with the shame of not being 'normal' or the daughter my parents want, and also with being a cowardly closet-case. At the moment, that is my largest source of shame.

Quote from: captains on November 26, 2014, 11:48:00 AM
I felt pretty profound shame. Not with men's clothes, which thankfully are fairly destigmatized for female bodied people, but with the feelings I was having about my body, my identity. I literally used to talk to myself in the shower, like "Okay, birth name. No bull->-bleeped-<- today. You're a girl. Remember you're girl and that's all you'll ever be."

I used to do that, too! Constantly, at that. Every time the dysphoria poked at me, I'd sternly think to myself: "birth-name, stop that. This is what you are, stop the bull->-bleeped-<-." I'd be much harsher with myself when the dysphoria got worse.

Captains, I hear you.  I've done a lot of that shower self-talk myself.  "Self, you have a woman's body, be proud of it!  Love your body! Don't listen to stupid stereotypes that tell you there's only one right kind of woman.  Just be who you are!  You can be any kind of woman you want!"  Except, of course, the not-a-woman kind.  The kind that is, actually, a man. 

I've always considered myself a hardcore feminist.  I was raised that way, in a generation where the dominant theory of gender was that it was purely a social construct.  If no one is intrinsically male or female, then a woman wanting to be a man must want male privilige and think that men are somehow better than women.  Well, thirty-something years of trying to live as a woman, and stumbling around like a moose on roller skates, has left me and everybody around me frustrated and confused.  Women are awesome and I'd be glad to be one.  To actually *be* a woman, that is, not just have the anatomical features that come from two X chromosomes.  But, I'm not a woman, and plenty of people have told me that I'm not doing feminism any favors by "trying to act like a man."  Except, of course, I'm not trying to do anything of the kind.

I'll happily tear down patriarchy from wherever I stand on the gender spectrum. But it's far more disingenuous for me to stand in a crowd of women and pretend to be one of them, then to admit the truth and stand beside them as an ally.  That's my anti-shame potion and, so far (its early days yet), it's working pretty well.

(No hating, folks.  This is just me talking for me, I can claim feminism for my own if I want, and I can criticize it without turning in my card.  Glad to discuss off list rather than derail if anyone wants to discuss the philosophy.)

Quote from: Bran on November 26, 2014, 05:23:07 PM
Captains, I hear you.  I've done a lot of that shower self-talk myself.  "Self, you have a woman's body, be proud of it!  Love your body! Don't listen to stupid stereotypes that tell you there's only one right kind of woman.  Just be who you are!  You can be any kind of woman you want!"  Except, of course, the not-a-woman kind.  The kind that is, actually, a man. 

I've always considered myself a hardcore feminist.  I was raised that way, in a generation where the dominant theory of gender was that it was purely a social construct.  If no one is intrinsically male or female, then a woman wanting to be a man must want male privilige and think that men are somehow better than women.  Well, thirty-something years of trying to live as a woman, and stumbling around like a moose on roller skates, has left me and everybody around me frustrated and confused.  Women are awesome and I'd be glad to be one.  To actually *be* a woman, that is, not just have the anatomical features that come from two X chromosomes.  But, I'm not a woman, and plenty of people have told me that I'm not doing feminism any favors by "trying to act like a man."  Except, of course, I'm not trying to do anything of the kind.

I'll happily tear down patriarchy from wherever I stand on the gender spectrum. But it's far more disingenuous for me to stand in a crowd of women and pretend to be one of them, then to admit the truth and stand beside them as an ally.  That's my anti-shame potion and, so far (its early days yet), it's working pretty well.

(No hating, folks.  This is just me talking for me, I can claim feminism for my own if I want, and I can criticize it without turning in my card.  Glad to discuss off list rather than derail if anyone wants to discuss the philosophy.)

hey dude(ette) its cool, theres more feminists on here then you would think, we dont judge, and certainly dont hate!

Once again, I'd like to thank everyone who's taken the time to reply here.  I hesitated to ask this question, but I'm glad now that I did.  I was hoping to get some insight into other people's thinking, and that is precisely what you've given me.

Also, a couple of people on this thread have been a bit apologetic, and I wanted to say to them that I don't see any reason why they should be.  I see a lot of honesty on this thread, and nobody ever has to be apologetic about that.

I don't think I've ever felt ashamed of being ftm, but maybe I just don't remember it. For as long as I can remember I presented as male without really knowing what I was doing, and much to the dismay of most of my family. I do still feel a lot of shame over my body, and shame over other aspects of my life. And when I sit down and think about it, I really have no real reason to be ashamed of anything, but I can't help it. I spend too much time hiding.

And Captains, thanks for your posts. I too often feel like a freak even among other trans folk. It's good to know I'm not the only one who feels this way.   

Quote from: Foxglove on November 27, 2014, 05:25:55 AM
Also, a couple of people on this thread have been a bit apologetic, and I wanted to say to them that I don't see any reason why they should be.  I see a lot of honesty on this thread, and nobody ever has to be apologetic about that.

Well, foxglove, part of the value of this wonderful forum is that people are frequently frank, and willing to confront complex or uncomfortable themes.  There are people here whose insight makes some trained therapists look like beginners.

The shame thing...heavens, it marked a huge part of my life, probably from when I was seven.  Not the shame of being transgender, but the shame of feeling things that I knew were "wrong", at least by the social mores of my birth country, a horrendously chauvinist and racist place.  I knew I was a "deviant" and highly ashamed by my private wishes to be a girl physically and socially. 

The shame thing spilled out of my private world into my public world too, since I had a permanent battle underway with myself to publicly express something of my gender, but without provoking complete ridicule.  The coloured hair, earrings, pink clothes and so on.  As much as I felt forced by myself to express myself in some way, this need made me feel very ill-at-ease amongst people who I always thought were being highly critical of me.  In hindsight, some were critical but the majority didn't really care, and just regarded me as an oddity. 

But there's no doubt about it:  the sense of shame was a very effective society-imposed brake.

Julia

Quote from: Orangaline on November 26, 2014, 06:29:41 PM
hey dude(ette) its cool, theres more feminists on here then you would think, we dont judge, and certainly dont hate!

Thanks!  I guess that was kind of over the top.  I've gotten into fights about the "F-word" before, so I've become a bit reactionary.  I know you guys are cool. 

I don't think I've felt shame in this context. I feel embarrassed when I presently in an overtly feminine way, yes, but not shame. How could I be ashamed of not identifying with something I've tried all my life to fit into but never could? I don't know, I've bern thinking about this thread since it started and all I've got are a bunch of jumbled incomplete thoughts.

Quote from: adrian on November 26, 2014, 07:33:56 AM
That said, I experienced a lot of shaming for not being "girl enough" in school and I'm sure it triggered feelings of shame and led to self-shaming. But conveniently enough I have pretty much suppressed all of these memories [emoji12] .

I got a lot of this too, to the extent that some girls refused to sit near me (I went to an all girls school). But for all I know, I didn't percieve it as bullying at all and actually liked it, except for the fact that they sort of treated my like something "other." But I didn't mind one bit that they called me butch, I started identifying as that a short while after. I suppose a reason I've never felt shame is that I'd taught myself to not care about what people say about me. I've always been so keen to do anything that is perceived as a stereotypically male "thing," though I never really got many chances to do so. I've always felt like an outcast, I guess it doesn't make much sense to feel ashamed of not being like people you don't really fit in with. That said, I've always looked at other girls and wished I was like them (as in I wished I was feminine, but I never forced myself to be).

When I told my therapist I use to run around naked a lot before puberty and now I don't she said it was because it is normal to feel shame and I should feel shame about my body. I didn't go to her again.

Quote from: Alexthecat on November 29, 2014, 07:10:04 AM
When I told my therapist I use to run around naked a lot before puberty and now I don't she said it was because it is normal to feel shame and I should feel shame about my body. I didn't go to her again.

wow, that doesn't sound like a very helpful therapist at all!