Still reeling from another one of those problematic binary/non-binary interactions. This one looks like my fault. The other person came away thinking that I had accused her of putting down non-binary people. Wonder if anyone has suggestions of another way I might have gotten my point across.

I had a thread in my blog about having trouble finding peace with my decision not to have FFS and hair transplantation. A binary person who I respect very much posted:

QuoteHonestly Suzi you won't find peace through a surgery. On your profile it says woman wannabe that is a negative way at looking at yourself. You can start finding peace by changing that mentality.
I'll be perfectly honest the day I started seeing myself as any other woman was the day that changed my life forever. And truthfully it didn't take a surgery I just changed how I looked at my life.

Here is my answer which seems to have caused the problem. It was taken that I thought she was putting non-binary people down. All I was trying to do is to explain that suggesting that I stop seeing myself as a Woman Wannabe was basically suggesting I change my gender identity.

QuoteThanks for the suggestion.

It's not that simple, though, right? I don't think you can really "fix" a non-binary person by telling them "just be binary". If my internal gender is something that's not quite female but also definitely not male, that's what it is. Can I really just fix it by "deciding" I'm female?

What would have been a better way to word that so she didn't think I took her remarks as putting down non-binary people?

Hi Suzi,

I dunno, the point you were making is that you don't need fixing, you are who and how you are, and that is just fine as it is.  That you are trying to understand how that works for you isn't asking for a gender re-evaluation.  What she meant is "this is what worked for me," but it was couched in language that suggested that it would work for you too.

I struggle with the same issue.  My hair is better than when we had lunch, but still isn't where I would like (may never be). And there is much about my face that could be less masculine.  But I have more important fish to fry, and vanity is a constant internal negotiation. IMHO you are lovely as you are and sound as feminine as can be wished for.

It is kind of like what I suggested to Cindy.  Intent is everything, she meant no disrespect, neither did you.  That understanding is imperfect with something as subtle as gender fluidity is probably to be expected.

From a sister woman wannabe,
Julie

Its difficult, probably impossible, to 'teach' binary people, especially those that have acquired years of stories, procedures, steps, formulas, and guidelines - libraries of binary culture, including transitioning information - to explain that in non-binary cases, those formulas and 'success' stories wont work. I don't think that I have ever changed anyone's belief before. Those already tolerant and friendly remain so. Those that believe in one truth have never changed their opinion.

Its my opinion you can either push it aside and ignore, be friendly and forgiving, try to instruct, or strike back on the offense.

I don't know what your fits your personality best. Or the personality of the person replying and reacting. Lately, I choose the later. To me, the other three haven't worked.

When they have thousands of examples that binary thinking does work, and no examples (which was there but they probably ignored in their construction of a library collection), I don't know if anyone could ever say, "look at these 10 people, or 50, or 100."

The thousands will always trump those rare exceptions, especially when less documented, marginalized, and less likely added to their library of transition knowledge.

Here is possibly one example of facial feminization regrets: (i don't know if this still holds true)(or if I have the whole story correct) Melanie Anne Phillips wrote in her site a few years ago how she had first posted a pre facial feminization frontal nude photo including her face on a website of GG women that is rated by viewers. She was rated high. With some hesitancy, she got the surgery, hoping to increase her femininity. She had regrets when her score was much lower after the facial feminization, when posting it again when fully healed and looking natural, leading to depression. Her face was more feminine, but somehow was now less attractive. She wanted to be more attractive.

Maybe would have been better to just explain that you understand how woman wannabe might sound like it's from low self-esteem but it not and is just how you label your non-binary gender at this point in time?
But yeah pretty much just what you said in the second half of your reply x

Perhaps just "Thank you for sharing, but that is not how I think, I walk another path dear, but thank you for your thoughts."

Dunno.  Something very simple.  Woman wannabe.  Does kinda raise an eyebrow.  Not to invalidate it, but i see where the gal was coming from.  Probably quite valid for that paradyne.  Just not our fit, its not how we think.  For you it is validating, for them, they see longing to be a total woman.  So they miss it.

Just thoughts.  Could be off.  Could be on.

When feelings run high, as they seem to be in this place, the slightest word can trigger lightning.  Only massive groupthink at a higher level can change that.   It could be too late now.

I am curious, what are your thoughts specific to the woman wannabee identifyer, what does this mean to you?  Its very unique to Suzi, I am intrigued.

Quote from: Satinjoy on December 05, 2014, 09:29:32 PM
I am curious, what are your thoughts specific to the woman wannabee identifyer, what does this mean to you?  Its very unique to Suzi, I am intrigued.

It's how I've always felt - that I'm not a woman but I wish I could become one in the worst way. A lot of my early blog posts deal with that. It's the reason why I didn't recognize I was trans for more than 50 years - I assumed based on what I'd read all MtF people were "women trapped in a man's body".

When I found Susan's, I discovered that there are an awful lot of people who feel the way I do.

I post "woman wannabe" as my identity, sort of as a beacon for those who feel the same way I do. I've had many PMs from people who tell me that's how they felt too and didn't know anyone else felt that way until they saw it on my profile.

I figured that living as a woman, or perhaps SRS, would change all that, but it hasn't. I'm still as non-binary as I was at the start. I'm clearly not a cis-man (or living as a woman with breasts and a female bottom wouldn't sit as well as it does), but I don't feel like I am a woman. I'm always looking down at my body thinking that the breasts and female bottom doesn't belong because I'm really male, and then how thrilled I am that I managed to con the medical establishment into letting me have them anyway, because a female body for me is like hitting the lottery.

Maybe after many more years of living as a woman, I'll start to feel like one. I'm certainly more comfortable living as one. It's a much more natural social role for me. But I've come to terms with the fact that I'm non-binary and it doesn't really interfere with my enjoying my transition. I love living as a woman (though I wish I went on dates a bit more often). My gender identity doesn't really bother me.

A bit of a ramble, but does this answer your question?

Yes my dear flower it does.

I know its hard being a nonbinary mtf.  We always are looking over my shoulder, and of course you have my support and we are going through it all together...

I think its probably the hardest journey.  I dont want to talk freely due to my unbelievable ability to upset this forum without intending to,  but I share the same experience as you do.  And yet.  And yet....

So I try to help other nonbinary mtfs and to point them in directions where they can get added help not available here... where I get mine.  And to help them here too.  We need every last bit of support possible, source is unimportant, survival is important.

I am not a woman wannabe.  I am a transwoman havetobe.  I am a person with lots of male components, in a body that never made sense and does now, that is wired to be physicallly female, and that thinks woman's mental processes are kind of from outer space somewhere.

It is third gender thinking Suzi.  We aren't women, we wont be women.  We are not men either.  We are transpeople, and the only way to survive it is together, otherwise we perish.

Which is why I still drop in over here.  I don't want anyone else to have to live with what i have to live with if they don't need to.

Brave girl Suzi is, to be transparent, to be a transwoman.   Some day, we will all be strong enough to seize our place in the world, and leave stealth behind.

Nails out hair down and heart wide open.

Satinjoy