Hey guys,

I know there are too many of these posts going around, but I'd appreciate some input to help me figure stuff out..

Most days these last few weeks I've been feeling pretty good. Well it kinda shifts between really good and really bad, but it tends towards feeling good. This confuses me because sometimes I feel alright as is, and other times I feel good because my head goes "yes I'm not female" and I look at the girls around me and I think "I'm not like them" and that makes me happy. But I'm having trouble getting to the point where I can say "yes I'm male" though I've said it at one point but now I'm back to just thinking through. I know it takes time and stuff.. But I'm just confused. I think sometimes when I feel fine the way things are, a part of that could be because I'm taking steps to be more like a guy, in that I'm dressing in a more masculine way, I dont check my "male" mannerisms at all anymore, and I've been called sir by security guards and taxi drivers even though I don't think I look like a guy at all right now.. Stuff like that.

I'd love to be able to present as a guy though, that part of my thinking process doesn't change. But at the moment I can't even get a haircut so it's kinda hard to do.. These days I go by gender neutral pronouns, mainly because I don't feel like I can try out male pronouns until I can at least start to pass as a guy, otherwise it's just weird because I know I don't look male. More or less I know I want to present as a guy, and I suppose I want a male looking body to go with it, but I can't yet say with conviction that I feel like a guy.  This confuses me too, because if I want people to percieve me as a guy, then does that say anything about how I see myself?

Sometimes it seems to me like I already know the answer, but For some reason I'm having trouble admitting it to myself. I feel like it's all there but I'm just having a hard time putting things together, but also maybe I want to be FtM so bad (why do I want this? Also confusing) that I'm trying to put things together by force. One of my worries is that this is all permanent, and although I can't see myself growing up a woman, Im not sure I can see myself growing up a man, but maybe this is 20 years of social influence talking here.

Sorry for this long incoherent rant, typed this up in class on my phone instead of reading Plato. Just hoping you guys might have some advice for how to explore my thoughts further. Thanks.

And just to complicate things more, I've learned yesterday that T is illegal in my country and I don't even know where ->-bleeped-<- stands with the law...Oh well..

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that since T is illegal where you are, gender therapy is hard to come by? Because a lot of these questions would be readily explored in that environment, not to say that you can't explore here, of course you can!

It's good that you feel good more often than not, since it's crappy to feel crappy all the time. (Trust me on that.)

As for wanting to be FtM SOOO HARD. Try this, when you are thinking of nothing what are the random thoughts that pop into your head. Don't judge them, just write them down, even the silly stuff like "I'm really hungry right now". after a few days, doesn't matter if you don't write them all down, just try and remember what you can and jot it down. After a few days of this, take a look at your writing, heck wait a few days and then go back, and see how many of your casual, random thoughts deal with gender. It's not solid evidence overall, but it could help you sort out if you are "trying too hard" or not.

And BTW, if you get called sir you are presenting as male. Congrats, I'm jealous!

I think that gender identity is not always nearly as clear-cut as we like to think.  I mean, it is for some people, but not for everyone.  In lots of ways, the question of whether or not you're transgender is easier than figuring out what your gender identity actually is.  Easier to know that you're not comfortable with the gender you were assigned at birth than to know what you would be comfortable with. 

My therapist keeps reminding me that there's no rush to self-define.  It's OK to just sit with the uncertainty, think about how you see yourself, what you want your body to be like, how you want people to see you, and why.  This is hard for me, because I tend to like definitions, but I think it's good advice.   What we each actually *want* for our gender identity and presentation is a long narrative that can't be entirely summed up in a single word.  Do you want people to treat you as male?  What does that mean to you?  What potentially gendered traits and behaviors do you have, or want to incorporate into your daily presentation? What do you want your body to be like?  "Am I male," is a different question from "do I want top surgery," "how do I feel about being called 'ma'am'," "do I like nail polish," and "can I change a flat tire, or do I want to learn?"

Might be helpful to focus on the details for a while, and not worry so much about the labeling.

For a while, I was stuck in an in between state too, where I knew I wasn't female and I knew I preferred male presentation, but I wasn't able to say I was a guy. I explored gender neutral pronouns online and tried a few different ones, but I slowly came to the realisation that I was picking the gender neutral pronouns that didn't at all resemble female pronouns, I'd look for the most masculine instead of most neutral. So I gave male pronouns a try too and realised that was what I needed was to accept the masculine part of me I was subconsciously hiding. It was a journey for me- I went a very slow road from "I'm not a girl" to finally one day "I am a boy." That's what happened to me, but some people don't always reach the "I am a boy" and that's okay. There are lots of people who identify as agender, genderqueer, gender fluid, and others. You don't have to identify as man or woman, and if that is who you discover you are, then that's great too! I have a good friend who is agender and they, when they describe their gender, always say "I am not a girl."  (Girl is what most people assume they are.) They have masculine traits, feminine traits, they kind of like everything in terms of clothing. Gendered things aren't really for them, they don't see genders for clothes and such. So if you are having trouble saying that you are or are not a man, you may just need time, or you may not be, and whatever your identity is, that's okay!

I'll reply to this more later when I'm not at work, but I just wanted to drive by and say that this post is so friggin real, dude. Godspeed.

Quote from: LoriLorenz on December 10, 2014, 02:58:56 AM
I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that since T is illegal where you are, gender therapy is hard to come by? Because a lot of these questions would be readily explored in that environment, not to say that you can't explore here, of course you can!

It's good that you feel good more often than not, since it's crappy to feel crappy all the time. (Trust me on that.)

As for wanting to be FtM SOOO HARD. Try this, when you are thinking of nothing what are the random thoughts that pop into your head. Don't judge them, just write them down, even the silly stuff like "I'm really hungry right now". after a few days, doesn't matter if you don't write them all down, just try and remember what you can and jot it down. After a few days of this, take a look at your writing, heck wait a few days and then go back, and see how many of your casual, random thoughts deal with gender. It's not solid evidence overall, but it could help you sort out if you are "trying too hard" or not.

And BTW, if you get called sir you are presenting as male. Congrats, I'm jealous!

I actually asked a psychiatrist today who said T should theoretically be possible to get with a prescription, so I suppose hope is not lost. I have started seeing a gender therapist actually, through videoconferencing though. I might try writing stuff down, I've been keeping a diary since I started thinking about all this, but then all the stuff that's in it is gender related..

It's pretty funny actually, when they call me sir because I don't know how they see me as male, although I like it I just get confused. Like yesterday I got into a cab with my roommate and she got a ma'am while I got a sir, I didn't even notice until we got out of the cab and she looked at me and said "I just don't get it, your hair is long." I don't get it either but it's pretty cool anyways. Another funny thing, my friend texted me completely out of the blue yesterday saying "you look like a guy with long hair, hope that makes you smile." Lol I don't know what to make of things anymore.

Quote from: Bran on December 10, 2014, 08:00:09 AM
My therapist keeps reminding me that there's no rush to self-define.  It's OK to just sit with the uncertainty, think about how you see yourself, what you want your body to be like, how you want people to see you, and why.  This is hard for me, because I tend to like definitions, but I think it's good advice.   What we each actually *want* for our gender identity and presentation is a long narrative that can't be entirely summed up in a single word.  Do you want people to treat you as male?  What does that mean to you?  What potentially gendered traits and behaviors do you have, or want to incorporate into your daily presentation? What do you want your body to be like?  "Am I male," is a different question from "do I want top surgery," "how do I feel about being called 'ma'am'," "do I like nail polish," and "can I change a flat tire, or do I want to learn?"

Might be helpful to focus on the details for a while, and not worry so much about the labeling.

Yeah, I'm at the point where I know I'm not cis, but not much else. It's exactly the details that confuse me, almost everything I do/like or want to do seems to point me into the masculine direction. I keep telling people that my life would just make a lot more sense if I were a guy..

Quote from: CursedFireDean on December 10, 2014, 10:48:41 AM
For a while, I was stuck in an in between state too, where I knew I wasn't female and I knew I preferred male presentation, but I wasn't able to say I was a guy. I explored gender neutral pronouns online and tried a few different ones, but I slowly came to the realisation that I was picking the gender neutral pronouns that didn't at all resemble female pronouns, I'd look for the most masculine instead of most neutral. So I gave male pronouns a try too and realised that was what I needed was to accept the masculine part of me I was subconsciously hiding. It was a journey for me- I went a very slow road from "I'm not a girl" to finally one day "I am a boy." That's what happened to me, but some people don't always reach the "I am a boy" and that's okay. There are lots of people who identify as agender, genderqueer, gender fluid, and others. You don't have to identify as man or woman, and if that is who you discover you are, then that's great too! I have a good friend who is agender and they, when they describe their gender, always say "I am not a girl."  (Girl is what most people assume they are.) They have masculine traits, feminine traits, they kind of like everything in terms of clothing. Gendered things aren't really for them, they don't see genders for clothes and such. So if you are having trouble saying that you are or are not a man, you may just need time, or you may not be, and whatever your identity is, that's okay!

If "not a girl" were a gender, that's where I am right now. But when I tell people that I go by they/them, I try to point out that it's more of a temporary thing. How long did it take you to get from here to there? I know I shouldn't completely rule out nonbinary, but anything that lies in the grey area of the spectrum I feel doesn't quite fit me, and that male would fit more, it's just right now I don't know how to get to the point where I can say it and believe it fully. Maybe it just needs time. I'm hopefully going to try out male pronouns once I get my hair cut.

Quote from: darkblade on December 10, 2014, 10:59:26 PM
I actually asked a psychiatrist today who said T should theoretically be possible to get with a prescription, so I suppose hope is not lost. . .

I'd meant to ask about that.  After all, trans men aren't the only folks who need prescriptions for testosterone.  What about guys who have had orchiectomy for non-gender related reasons?  And "Low T," while nowhere near as common as aging American men and the pharmaceutical companies that want their money would have us believe, is a real thing.  So it's probably really a question of whether or not the acceptable uses of testosterone are regulated, and whether or not you can find any doctors willing to prescribe it to someone FAAB.

Quote from: darkblade on December 10, 2014, 10:59:26 PMI'm at the point where I know I'm not cis, but not much else. . . If "not a girl" were a gender, that's where I am right now.

The first time I came out, I said "I think 'cis woman' is pretty much definitely not what I am. . ."  Vague as it was, my friend got it, bless her.  And that's a start. 

Quote from: darkblade on December 10, 2014, 10:59:26 PMIt's exactly the details that confuse me, almost everything I do/like or want to do seems to point me into the masculine direction. I keep telling people that my life would just make a lot more sense if I were a guy...

That's the thing, though-- you don't have to think about what direction the details point in, whether they mean you're masculine or feminine. In lots of ways, it's actually more useful to think in terms of what you want, and how you get it.  Plenty of people who don't identify as male, exactly, still find that testosterone, top surgery, etc, are helpful.  If you can detatch the details from any conclusion about what they mean, they're easier to look at. 

But, if it's true that your life would make more sense if you were a guy, you may have your answer-- or not.  Feeling like life would make more sense if you were a man doesn't mean you want to be a guy, or feel like you are a guy, or should become a guy.  Life doesn't always have to make sense-- which is a good thing, because it often doesn't make any sense at all.