A casual friend of mine was telling me about The Red Tent (this new mini-series that just came out, also a book) and about how it's such a great story about sisterhood in the face of male oppression during their periods, and how she sorta enjoys the solitude they guarantee her...and of course I mentioned that this isn't something I've ever experienced, to which she said "Of course, but you've experienced sisterhood, right?"  In the two and a half years I've been full time-no.  I have not.

I got flustered when she said that-I had to try hard to keep myself together.  I shook it off with an optimistic "hope to one day!" but in my heart, it's killing me that this is something I've never known before.  Now, don't get me wrong-I despise gendered divides.  I don't believe that men and women are inherently incompatible, and that there need to be these two separate social classes.  I'm very much against that-but, I'm still a bit bothered by the fact that nobody has ever seen me as just "one of the girls"-it's just that sense of belonging that I'm pining for.  I think that as an oppressed group there is this almost innate bond that exists between all women; except, I'm not a part of it.  I don't know if I will never be accepted as a woman.  Right now, everyone sees me only as a trans woman.  And while it's easy to say that they are the same thing...they aren't through they eyes of a cis person.  Even though my identity is respected, they still don't see me as a woman (and while I hate gender, I'd vastly prefer to be a woman if that's how people are sorting one another); I'm some weird, out-of-place third category.  I'm not one of them...It's easy to find tolerance, and often acceptance where I am now.  But, I wonder-how can I hope to belong as just another girl if I'm always seen as someone who isn't one?  I don't like living in a gendered world-but, to be honest, sometimes it'd be nice to be a part of it.  Any advice is welcome.

If you open yourself to it you kind of just get sucked into sisterhood, especially if you're hanging out with enough girls. Its kind of hard to really explain the concept but it's just being at ease and sharing things, always seems girls share way more more information about basically everything then guys. The girls I hung out with didn't even care I was trans they still went into detail and it was all natural.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on December 11, 2014, 07:45:57 PM
I think that as an oppressed group there is this almost innate bond that exists between all women; except, I'm not a part of it.  I don't know if I will never be accepted as a woman.  Right now, everyone sees me only as a trans woman.  And while it's easy to say that they are the same thing...they aren't through they eyes of a cis person.

It's an interesting topic that I do think about. In my own experience, people are kind of funny around others that they're unsure about ( in any capacity ), regardless of things like gender. That extends to anything, including age and nationality. It seems normal as much as I dislike that.

With my friends who know my past, I don't really see any difference in how I relate as opposed to the other girls. But I think it's easy for them... I mean, I wasn't really fooling any of them before transition. It kind of made sense to many when I came out to them all. Which begs the question, how did they see me before? Just a very feminine guy I guess.

For those who don't know my past, while I may not have passed 100% of the time physically over the last year, I get the feeling that it is every other aspect which is the point of difference. I don't have any guard up, and I connect easily with people. I'm genuine and warm, and it shines.

Yes, I do experience sisterhood. I'm just a woman. Being trans is just incidental for those who know.

Maybe it's just me, but you don't look androgynous to me, you look female. Your 'gender abolitionist' is very defining, because most women like their roles as women, just not their place in society, and most men like their roles and their positions in society. I do have several cis girlfriends, and I feel included, not excluded. I think it's attitude. I don't want to be androgynous, I want to be and am a woman, in my mind and in people's minds who've only known me since I transitioned thirty nine months ago, because I don't put up walls. I'm not out to change the world, I'm in to fit within it. I thought I even had the guy, but that's just 99% painful now.

I feel that I have experienced sisterhood, whether it has been my imagination or not I cannot say. The women at work know that I am trans but that has not been a barrier to feeling supported, being included and being one if the girls. I don't hide the fact that I am trans but I also don't feel that is exclusionary or invalidating to my inclusion.

Even well before I came out, women would often think of me as an "honary woman" or as "one of the girls" anyway and maybe that had to do with how they felt I related to them and treated them. Trust and inclusion is earned it doesn't just happen.

As women who have by and large been socialised within the male/patriarchal sphere we can sometimes be utterly unaware when our behaviour and interaction with women takes on typically male patterned characteristics. For example women in a group will generally allow each other to have a say, talk about how they feel rather than what they think, talk about relationships and interests rather than theories and abstractions, have a very interactive body language, don't appreciate over bearing or over opinionated people, etc. I had to learn all that behaviour and sometimes still struggle, while not heavily male socialised I still had a lot of male behavioural traits.

That's not to say you have to have "girly" traits or interests, just that there is greater expectation of inclusion and equality and listening to others. Male styled behaviour is generally that of exclusion, superiority and talking about self. Even before I transitioned I deliberately went out of my way to unlearn those male traits as I found they were a barrier to inclusion. Don't know if that applies to you but it sure did for me.

Quote from: Hanazono on December 12, 2014, 08:58:02 AM
it's not easy (or even possible? ) for anyone who's not perceived to be female in the eyes of her peers to truly experience cis sisterhood.

but there is always transistor hood. like what we're having here

I really liked your list, first off. And I'm a lil jealous I havent experienced those things, but I've spent so much time with my BF that we had an operation and became atttached at the the hip.

But we're living at his parents now and I became BFFs with his best friend's GF and she gace me a bunch of clothes from when she was a model for a short period of time and she tells me secrets and we go out and have shots together towrds just this "to being sisters..." And I talk to and I'm close to his mom who really likes me. His whole family does.

Up here I'm always wearing pretty femme stuff but down in Philly I don't sometimes when I have appointments at the welfare office or something. Yet, I'm still cdalled she and stuff. So, my point is I do think it's possible in the long run to be perceived as female and experience a true bond. Heck, it seems like you have. I'm jelly.

However, I think, and, this might make some people mad, sorry, that you have to have had SRS and have a vag. Or at least be on the way to getting one. I'm youngishin my eyes. but now im rambling so ill shut up. I just think having a vag really allows you to be one of the cis sisters. But with the right people you can prolly be non-op. These people would without  a doubt be lesbians, otherwise known as our greatest supporters.

Great post and topic though, Andro Painter 26! I wish I had a nickname for ya lol your name's long. But I love ur style.

Hugs.

To be honest, your friend can't speak for an entire group. I'm wary of anyone who does - for *any* reason. She can't tell you what *all* cis girls experience.

I don't know if my opinion is welcome, but... I've never experienced this "sisterhood" with friends/acquaintances. But, to be honest I know that's *my* failing. I am a cis girl, if you want to divide me, but that has nothing to do with it. I don't socialise well, I'm awkward, and I find it hard to be myself and open up. Therefore, people find it difficult to welcome me and I'm left on the outside.

Friendship and closeness is there if you let it in. I see it all the time in others.

On another note - my girlfriend, who's very early on in her transition, has been embraced by the small group of girls she came out to at uni. They've welcomed her (even the ones who don't fully understand), and she's been invited to a girly get-together this weekend. I'm so proud of her and proud to be hers.

My view of gender is, let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.  If there are inequalities between the genders (which there are), then we work to eliminate those.  But even though I can't even begin to define them, I feel there are some basic differences between the genders, and I don't see that as a bad thing.  It's just the way of the world. 

One good thing about it is that it gives you people you can naturally bond with.  A transfriend of mine once agreed with me that when you transition at my age you discover that you've joined a "little old ladies' club".  Upper middle aged and older women naturally gravitate towards each other, and if you can be accepted in those circles, then it's a very fine thing.  I've got many more friends and acquaintances now than I used to.

In my view, there's no doubt that men can bond with each other, but I think that women do it more spontaneously.  E.g., not long ago I got on the train, sat down next to a woman close to my age, and within a couple of minutes we were chatting away and carried on for the entire hour and a bit that I was on the train.  When you're female, it's easier to be less lonely.

You have lots of nice little moments.  I know three cis women who are all good buddies and who get together from time to time for a girlie lunch.  Once I came out, they started including me in their lunches.  Nice.

And one of my favourite moments: once when I was on the train I needed to pee, and so I headed for the loo.  Just before I got there a woman slipped in ahead of me.  Then she seemed to run into a problem, started rattling the door handle and the lock, and a minute later came back out and said that the door wouldn't lock.  I tried it myself and found that she was right.  So I offered to stand guard for her outside the door, which offer she accepted.  When she was done, she came back out and did the same for me.  A bit of sisterly solidarity there, I said to myself.

Sisterhood is often expressed in tiny little incidents like this, things you might not notice if you're not paying attention.  I'd hope that those who are saying they don't experience sisterhood might actually be doing it.  Perhaps it's just escaped their notice.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on December 12, 2014, 11:16:07 AM

However, I think, and, this might make some people mad, sorry, that you have to have had SRS and have a vag. Or at least be on the way to getting one. I'm youngishin my eyes. but now im rambling so ill shut up. I just think having a vag really allows you to be one of the cis sisters. But with the right people you can prolly be non-op. These people would without  a doubt be lesbians, otherwise known as our greatest supporters.

This is absolutely ridiculous; firstly, how is someone supposed to know what I have in my pants?  It's not like you look different after you have surgery-it shouldn't have even a slight difference on how people that aren't having sex with you see you.  Second-that's an incredibly class-privileged thing to say; I do not have the financial resources for SRS, and it's quite possible that I never will.  In addition, I'm a full time student and the recovery period would mean giving up on school-I'm sorry, but this is insanely offensive.  I expect better for you hon-usually you're pretty insightful :/ 

Ugh, perceived as female.  Not as a trans-whatever.  Female.  Don't think that'll  ever happen; everyone will always know I'm trans, even if they say I'm "female" because I told them to say it.  Like, they're indulging me?  People call me "she" out of courtesy?  Who knows...or, perhaps I am just too awkward.  In which case, I really don't know what to do.  Once again, I find myself with more questions than answers...

Quote from: Foxglove on December 12, 2014, 01:24:25 PM
Sisterhood is often expressed in tiny little incidents like this, things you might not notice if you're not paying attention.  I'd hope that those who are saying they don't experience sisterhood might actually be doing it.  Perhaps it's just escaped their notice.

An extremely good point! It's expressed in many subtle ways they can be hard to discern. Most women will sit next to other women rather than men on the train or bus for example, says a lot about trust.

Quote from: Hanazono on December 12, 2014, 08:58:02 AM
sisterhood?
it's the 3 am phone call from your bestie who's broken up with her bf and you're by her side before the next hour. 
it's the secret keeping for a girlfriend who suddenly gets married and looks a bit chubbier suddenly.
it's waking up in the morning with the other girls in a tent on a hillside after a night of sharing secrets.
it's the burning off of a leech on a boob.
it's the horrible shopping binge where we ended up with stuff we didn't really want and ended up trading with each other.
it's the vicious zipping up of  bestie's wedding dress in the early morning after spending the night over and having heard her confide all her fears about her marriage. 

Great list and there are plenty more examples too. For me it's good enough to go off for drinks or lunch/dinner with the girls.

Good list; I point to all of these as things I have never had ^

Quote from: Joanna Dark on December 12, 2014, 11:16:07 AM
However, I think, and, this might make some people mad, sorry, that you have to have had SRS and have a vag.

I disagree. I have experienced some of the sisterhood effects and was very, very surprised when it happened. It is becoming a standard occurrence for me. Other women approach me as a woman and include me in their conversation or their activities. I am starting to expect it now and I do NOT have a vagina.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on December 11, 2014, 07:45:57 PM
I shook it off with an optimistic "hope to one day!" but in my heart, it's killing me that this is something I've never known before.  Now, don't get me wrong-I despise gendered divides.

...

I don't like living in a gendered world-but, to be honest, sometimes it'd be nice to be a part of it.  Any advice is welcome.

The problem is that regardless of how YOU view gender, it is how other women view gender that counts here. You look to them to invite you into their circles and they will if THEY feel that you are one of them. Most women like their gender and like to have walls between themselves and men. I do not know if you are a "campaigning" type of person (from your descriptions and posts it seems to me that you might be) and perhaps this comes across to others?

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on December 12, 2014, 01:28:26 PM
This is absolutely ridiculous; firstly, how is someone supposed to know what I have in my pants?  It's not like you look different after you have surgery-it shouldn't have even a slight difference on how people that aren't having sex with you see you. 

Actually I've had a post woman say pretty much the same thing, in all seriousness she told me that "women really treat you as an equal once you've had the surgery". Personally I couldn't see how but did wonder if it was more of a "self acceptance leads to feeling accepted by other women" thing. Dunno. But I did have an experience during my first transition attempt that kind of highlighted this for me. I went to the beach with two gal pals - when we went to the women's change room I had to find a toilet cubicle to change in while they were able to continue nattering in the open shower area. Even for those short couple of minutes I felt excluded because of my birth defect. For general day to day interaction it shouldn't matter but there are certain levels of bonding that won't or can't happen without SRS.

Andro, I feel you are overthinking it a bit. Just relax and enjoy the company of other women, come what may. Like I noted above the women at work know I'm trans but I feel 100% treated as one of the girls by all of them.

I make lots of new friends since i started hrt all of them are cis woman ( 20 awesome girls ) many of them know i'm trans, they was great support for me when i got hormones rollercoaster.
I meet with them many times ( we live in diffrent cities ) i sleep over and they sleep over in my and my fiance house and basically we are very close, i feel like part of group and its totally normal for me and for them, i'm pre srs and it will be loong time before i will get it because of money, they all know that.
We share those things from that list posted here and much, much more

I love them all soo much

The process of being accepted into sisterhood has been a special experience for me.  Before transition I was an honorary member, in some ways part of the group, but off to the side.  Once I started HRT and had not yet come out to my female friends, shifted things and I was more part of the group, but some ways not.  I think there was a bit of confusion going on because my scent had changed, but they still saw me as male.  However, once I came out to them I was accepted.  They shared way more personal things, and the way they talked to me and treated me changed.  It was a particularly special experience for me, because being part of a sisterhood was something I had when I was really young.  Something that I lost and was rejected from as I got older.  Being welcomed back into sisterhood has been a happy emotional experience that makes me smile.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on December 12, 2014, 01:28:26 PM
This is absolutely ridiculous; firstly, how is someone supposed to know what I have in my pants?  It's not like you look different after you have surgery-it shouldn't have even a slight difference on how people that aren't having sex with you see you.  Second-that's an incredibly class-privileged thing to say; I do not have the financial resources for SRS, and it's quite possible that I never will.  In addition, I'm a full time student and the recovery period would mean giving up on school-I'm sorry, but this is insanely offensive.  I expect better for you hon-usually you're pretty insightful :/ 

Ugh, perceived as female.  Not as a trans-whatever.  Female.  Don't think that'll  ever happen; everyone will always know I'm trans, even if they say I'm "female" because I told them to say it.  Like, they're indulging me?  People call me "she" out of courtesy?  Who knows...or, perhaps I am just too awkward.  In which case, I really don't know what to do.  Once again, I find myself with more questions than answers...Look up prvention point on Google Maps and then look around and tell me how bad you have it.

So, what if I want to wear yoga pants or go to the beach and wear a bikini, what would be what every other girl my age is wearing. Even a one piece would be the same. A skirt, meh, no thanks. I'd just as well go in cutt offs and a bikini top. What about the bathroom/changing room situation? What about being BFFs with someone and getting changed in front of them, which what girls do. I know cause girls treat me like a girl, even pre-HRT. There's so many things I could list. But that's not the point. What about the completeness I would feel and the closeness I could fell with other woman knowing the isn't a lil something dangling there?

Because believe it or not. This is a sub-forum for male-to-female transsexuals and why should I always have to be treated like I'm scum and yelled at simply because I am one. Don't I deserve a place to go? A place where I can talk about surgery freely? Isn't that what this site is for? There is a non-op section. There's a section for everything and I don't go there telling them what to say or how to feel. And everyone has a right to post whatever they want, I accept that, and support it, but there is a line, a line I think where through words and treatment it's a form of censorship and silencing...

yeah, this is angry, but I have every right to be angry after what you said, especially because I said those nice things about you. Do you always have to be angry? Always? I'm sorry but I hear this from people, lesbians mostly, cause they receive the brunt of it, that they wish they could talk to transsexuals but it always seems they are so ready to fight and get mad (trans women that is. Never trans men, a mystery I can't solve). I'm told that every post or article on lesbiansim turns into a debate or trans-ness and trans-phobia and they feel less than if they post anything that...wait they simply just don;'t post.... And...I'm just going to shut up cause I'm not telling you how to feel, all I ask is that you respect MY RIGHT to talk about surgery and how I feel about it on a MTF forum, er, sub forum. Isn't that fair?

BTW, as far as surgery, I don't know if you want it or not, but if you thionk I'm some rich B!tch...think again...I'm just a B!tch.

Ok, so first of all...just to be clear.  I am a male to female transexual, albiet one who doesn't put any faith in the gender binary.  And I say pants because that's an old expression, and at the time I wrote this I was working in my studio, where I usually prefer to wear-you guessed it-pants. 

I'd absolutely love to get surgery.  And you have absolutely every right to talk about surgery.  What you do NOT have the right to say is that I am less of a woman because I have not had the opportunity to have surgery yet, and may never have said opportunity.  I'm not at all affronted by your situation-frankly, I envy it quite a bit wrt the medical aspects of your transition*.  What I'm angry about is that you're invalidating my identity because I have not had the same options as you. 

I respect your right to talk about surgery; I do not respect your right to tell me that I don't deserve to be seen as a woman because I don't have twenty thousand dollars on hand.  I respect that you've struggled-so you should understand why when I say that I can't afford surgery, I should still be allowed to be accepted for the woman I am.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on December 14, 2014, 03:54:58 PM
Ok, so first of all...just to be clear.  I am a male to female transexual, albiet one who doesn't put any faith in the gender binary.  And I say pants because that's an old expression, and at the time I wrote this I was working in my studio, where I usually prefer to wear-you guessed it-pants. 

I'd absolutely love to get surgery.  And you have absolutely every right to talk about surgery.  What you do NOT have the right to say is that I am less of a woman because I have not had the opportunity to have surgery yet, and may never have said opportunity.  I'm not at all affronted by your situation-frankly, I envy it quite a bit wrt the medical aspects of your transition*.  What I'm angry about is that you're invalidating my identity because I have not had the same options as you. 

I respect your right to talk about surgery; I do not respect your right to tell me that I don't deserve to be seen as a woman because I don't have twenty thousand dollars on hand.  I respect that you've struggled-so you should understand why when I say that I can't afford surgery, I should still be allowed to be accepted for the woman I am.

What options? The options to live on the street and get free HRT cause I live in Philly and I'm so poor? Or that I can pass so well and blend in. Yes, that is a blessing and I realize my privilege and wish everyone was treated like me. Even if people know they forget. I feel awful that people get treated badly. It's awful.

But I never ever said you're not a woman cause you can't, or may never be able to. get surgery. And, if it came off that way, I trulyam very very very sorry 'cause I do not think that. You ARE A WOMAN with or without it. So I'd like to make that VERY clear.

Lucky that you can blend in hon...really lucky you can.  I'd kill for that.

I guess then that this is just another one of those miscommunications then?  Well, I'm sorry for getting angry if that's not what you meant.  The "you aren't trans if you havn't had surgery" thing is something I've heard a hundred and one times and I'm so sick of it at this point that it always makes my furious.  Yeah...having surgery or not having surgery should not make a difference in the eyes of others.  It's not like anyone actually knows what I have or don't have anyways.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on December 14, 2014, 04:19:03 PM
Lucky that you can blend in hon...really lucky you can.  I'd kill for that.

I guess then that this is just another one of those miscommunications then?  Well, I'm sorry for getting angry if that's not what you meant.  The "you aren't trans if you havn't had surgery" thing is something I've heard a hundred and one times and I'm so sick of it at this point that it always makes my furious.  Yeah...having surgery or not having surgery should not make a difference in the eyes of others.  It's not like anyone actually knows what I have or don't have anyways.

Yup, it's definitely a case of mis-communication. I do not think that. And it irks me too when I hear it. Being trans and having the funds to have surgery or mutually exclusive.