I can't even wrap my head around the things my husband said to me tonight. I'm so upset. It's like I married a stranger. I was trying to break up with him, or at least tell him I needed time alone to process my whole experience, and it got derailed to the point where I had to tell him I needed time to think before I could respond to his thoughts.

I can deal with transphobia. Hell, I've had it. I didn't expect it from someone I loved, whom I thought was devoid of any kind of hatred/bigotry. He wouldn't even call it that if I brought it up. He doesn't think he's transphobic, he thinks he's rational.

There were phrases like:
- "IF you transition"--I'm already transitioning. The social and mental aspects of this process are part of the transition. He seems to think HRT is "transitioning". I was saddened that he doesn't see what I'm doing as a transition. I tried to clarify this and he didn't seem to take it in.

- "You want to be a man, but you're not one now." *sigh*

- "I'll never see you as a man. You'll never pass." First of all, that's a horrid thing to say to anybody. That is word for word what he said, I'm not paraphrasing. Second, and I forgive him for this one because he hasn't been involved in the trans community, passing is NOT everyone's goal. The goal is to be yourself. That's all I want.

- His words: Transpeople are doing a disservice to society by transitioning, because they are reinforcing the gender binary by refusing to accept themselves as gender-variant people in whatever bodies they were born in. BUT, trans people who don't pass as their preferred gender, i.e. don't fit into the gender binary, bother him. They should not have transitioned because they are clearly not meant to be what they think they are. WHAT.

- I told him to talk about this with his friends to help him process it. His friend said that if I'm truly a man, I ought to man up and remain in a female body for the sake of my marriage and daughter, since men are expected to sacrifice everything in this society. He agreed with his friend. Um, that's exactly the kind of patriarchal BS I desire to fight against, so no. He knows I follow gender politics; why he thought that would work on me is a mystery.

If there was more, and I'm sure there was, I don't want to sit here and think about it. I normally hate talking crap about people anyway. But holy crap. Wow. I married this person. There were a lot of tears shed, so I have sympathy for him still, but...still in shock. Needed to vent.

Overall, I felt a little stronger during and after the conversation...because I was being me and attempting to do something good for me. I used to think of myself as a pretty tough chick, so I sometimes wonder how I ended up in this situation at all.

Even if you just "stayed a female" for the sake of him and your daughter, does he honestly think that things will go back to being the same?  If men are expected to sacrifice everything in this society, then why isn't your husband sacrificing his comfort just to see things from your point of view.  That is hypocritical to me. 

Granted, I understand that this is a hard process for him as it would be for anyone that has loved a person one way and now is expected to love them in another way.  I still think he could have handled the conversation with a bit more grace though.

I wish I knew what to tell you.  This is a really hard situation -hugs-.

Just try to be as strong as you can and let it all out in tears when you feel the need to.  As you know, now is an important time to have to yourself.

I'm sorry you had to experience this It's horrible to be told those things by a person who is so close (it's horrible not matter from whom, but it does have an extra sting if you care about the person). I hope you can find some calm.

Quote from: Gothic Dandy Luca on December 07, 2014, 11:27:28 PM
I can't even wrap my head around the things my husband said to me tonight. I'm so upset. It's like I married a stranger. I was trying to break up with him, or at least tell him I needed time alone to process my whole experience, and it got derailed to the point where I had to tell him I needed time to think before I could respond to his thoughts.

I can deal with transphobia. Hell, I've had it. I didn't expect it from someone I loved, whom I thought was devoid of any kind of hatred/bigotry. He wouldn't even call it that if I brought it up. He doesn't think he's transphobic, he thinks he's rational.

There were phrases like:
- "IF you transition"--I'm already transitioning. The social and mental aspects of this process are part of the transition. He seems to think HRT is "transitioning". I was saddened that he doesn't see what I'm doing as a transition. I tried to clarify this and he didn't seem to take it in.

- "You want to be a man, but you're not one now." *sigh*

- "I'll never see you as a man. You'll never pass." First of all, that's a horrid thing to say to anybody. That is word for word what he said, I'm not paraphrasing. Second, and I forgive him for this one because he hasn't been involved in the trans community, passing is NOT everyone's goal. The goal is to be yourself. That's all I want.

- His words: Transpeople are doing a disservice to society by transitioning, because they are reinforcing the gender binary by refusing to accept themselves as gender-variant people in whatever bodies they were born in. BUT, trans people who don't pass as their preferred gender, i.e. don't fit into the gender binary, bother him. They should not have transitioned because they are clearly not meant to be what they think they are. WHAT.

- I told him to talk about this with his friends to help him process it. His friend said that if I'm truly a man, I ought to man up and remain in a female body for the sake of my marriage and daughter, since men are expected to sacrifice everything in this society. He agreed with his friend. Um, that's exactly the kind of patriarchal BS I desire to fight against, so no. He knows I follow gender politics; why he thought that would work on me is a mystery.

If there was more, and I'm sure there was, I don't want to sit here and think about it. I normally hate talking crap about people anyway. But holy crap. Wow. I married this person. There were a lot of tears shed, so I have sympathy for him still, but...still in shock. Needed to vent.

Overall, I felt a little stronger during and after the conversation...because I was being me and attempting to do something good for me. I used to think of myself as a pretty tough chick, so I sometimes wonder how I ended up in this situation at all.

I feel your pain, except I am transitioning to female, I just had to say f, it after 2 years of talking and coming out to my wife and mom and discussing it, and how bad of a person I am for wanting to be a woman, and what harm Im gonna do to my daughter by doing this... I love them all but I am checking out soon, Id rather pay child support than ever have to live as a man again. I hate it because I love my family, but they will never understand because they don't have to live with it. I wish you luck there is no easy way around this. And you cant blame them totally, this is what they were taught, my wife married a man, and its not fair to her, I understand and its my fault for not seeing the truth back when I met her I thought I could beat this. Boy was I wrong....

Hugs. Unfortunately most cis people just don't get it. I would translate what he is trying to say as he is afraid of and upset about the idea your body becoming masculinised. Presumably he is hetro and was attracted to your "female" presentation so is struggling with the likelihood of loss. Doesn't make what he said OK or right though, and it sounds like he was quite aggressive and dismissive.

It is hurtful to be said many of those things but please keep in mind (from what I see), he said all of that when clearly being very upset and thinking he was losing you. Again, I am sorry of all happened and said but he knows you are transitioning and stayed with you so far. It is hard to just say he did all wrong here. I just recognize people close of you using what hurts you the most when they are afraid of losing you.

Quote from: adrian on December 08, 2014, 12:32:34 AMIt's horrible to be told those things by a person who is so close (it's horrible not matter from whom, but it does have an extra sting if you care about the person).

Yes, you understand exactly! And it brings a load of mixed feelings of insult, betrayal (I thought he was better than this), and guilt (for bringing him such pain). Most of the tears were his...

He told me he had started imagining what it would be like to transition to female, since I've brought up a lot of old transgender feelings he used to have. Every word he says, it's plain as day to me that he's deeply frustrated with his own internalized transphobia, not just struggling with the loss of his pretty wife. I've smashed his solution for himself by choosing the opposite route he did. There is so much anger and irrational logic coming out of him. The man I chose to marry isn't a bigot; I've never seen a side of him this ugly.

I don't know if I'm angry at him or what. I am just in a lot of mixed emotional turmoil. I'm not even that shaken up if you look at me...it all cut deep and is lying in here somewhere away from the surface.

I AM angry about the things directed at me suggesting I'm not trans enough or that I don't know who I really am. Anger is good in that case. It means I do know who I am and will fight for it. I've never felt this powerful and certain of myself before. I can't be faking this FTM business if it brings me that feeling.

My (semi-ex) boyfriend last week said some very similar things to me. Though there was no argument, I know he has been frustrated with me being so stressed. But really, neither is a good excuse to say such things.

He implied that he had been outing me to others, telling people I was trans because he thought my gender was trans. The one word I told him I didn't like. Rather than male or non-binary or androgynous or not-female or pixie or any of the actual words I've actually used to describe my gender identity to him. I guess since I'm not a cis guy there has to be some "explanation" that one wouldn't give for a "real" guy. And I guess he knows my gender identity better than me.

He even (tried to) phrase the "you'll never pass as a regular guy" bull->-bleeped-<- as a compliment.

Definitely a sense of betrayal... From someone who claims to love me, it hurts so much worse than from strangers. For me too it's a lot easier to deal with people who are blatantly and generally transphobic, because I can write them off as just ->-bleeped-<-s rather than it being anything specifically about ME.

When I had calmed down a bit, I told him I was deeply hurt and he was seriously lacking in respect and his response was something like "so what exactly did I say that was so hurtful?"  I wish I had something like your sense of anger, it is useful for things like this. I just felt completely shattered.

Quote from: Gothic Dandy Luca on December 08, 2014, 10:55:11 AM
He told me he had started imagining what it would be like to transition to female, since I've brought up a lot of old transgender feelings he used to have. Every word he says, it's plain as day to me that he's deeply frustrated with his own internalized transphobia, not just struggling with the loss of his pretty wife. I've smashed his solution for himself by choosing the opposite route he did.

So he has questioned his own gender identity as well? And still he lashes those statements at you. That sounds indeed as if there is a lot going on on his end as well, stuff that *he* needs to sort out.

You know, I have sometimes asked myself whether there is a possibility that my s.o. is suppressing something about his sexual orientation (not gender identity). It's probably just wishful thinking on my part,  but I wonder whether by coming out I am forcing him to face some of his own demons.

Sometimes, anger can be very empowering. I feel much better about myself when I'm in anger mode than when I'm merely depressed.

Wow-- that's really awful.  Nobody should ever have to hear stuff like that from somone they love.  Of course you're feeling betrayed and angry!  And I think I get where you're coming from. My situation is actually similar. I'm married (though to a woman), we've got two little kids. We've had some pretty awful fights.  When I came out, she said some things that made me wonder if I could stay married to her, things which made me sure she wasn't going to be able to stay married to me.  We were both absolutely furious with each other.

. . . And then she dealt with it.  I still don't know how she made the change in her own mind, and I've asked.  But she's gotten to the point that she recognizes that our life now is pretty good, our family is working, we're happy together, and nobody really knows what the future will be like anyway.  I don't know that we'll be able to stay together as romantic partners (she's still a lesbian, I'm still a man), but we're working together again, and that is a great feeling.

I'm telling you this because, from what I hear and what I've seen, it's completely normal for spouses to panic-- frankly panic-- and do and say some horrible things in response to their partner's being trans.  The initial freakout may be relationship ending but, if you had a good relationship before and had worked through some difficulties together already, you can get through this, too.  Not saying everything will be OK in the end, but it won't necessarily be as terrible as it seems right now.

Your best plan might be distance, patience, forgiveness, and finding a place away from him to do your own processing.  Like here :-) and with your friends and a good therapist.

I understand how you feel.

My wife is a social worker, very liberal and LGBT friendly. However, when I came out it was ugly, still is at times. She thought I was telling her I was gay and wanted a divorce even though I reinforced I am faithful and have no intention to stray. My wife was ignorant of what trans is. I had to help her through it but she does not want to listen and learn. Both my wife and daughter refuse to accept me as me.

Your husband is in shock. He is trying to reason the trans out of you. It sounds like he thinks it is a choice to be trans. He sounds angry perhaps scared and very disrespectful.

If you love him and want to remain married it may take time and couples marriage counseling. If you are planning to leave then you know how he will be.

Good luck, hugs

So would you believe that the other night, he suggested we crossdress to this event we wanted to go to. What a 180!

It was a masquerade, so we both wore masks. I had my outfit planned already, though, so I didn't borrow his clothes, but he borrowed one of my dresses. HE TOTALLY PASSED all night, effortlessly. He got to see what it felt like to be perceived as female, and seemed to learn new things about himself.

I was so proud of him, and also a little envious in the happy way. (I do not pass one bit. In fact, I still get HIT ON by douchebaggy straight guys even when wearing men's clothes, no makeup, and having the sides of my head buzzed. Not passing, I don't care that much; getting hit on BAFFLES me.)

I'm still not sure what this does to our relationship, though. He suddenly seems a little more open to me, but if he's a woman, he's a lesbian, and I'm still not a woman. He seems to crave a devoted lover and that can't be me. There are also issues I mentioned in another thread that I still can't feel ok with.

Pixie, WOW at your boyfriend. I'm glad you stood up for yourself, even if you did feel awful.

Bran, I'm glad things ended up working out for you and your wife! Really, truly glad.

Offering hugs I'm sorry you're going through so much with someone you care about. And kudos to you for keeping your cool (or at least that's what it sounds like). I know I wouldn't have been able to sit through so much nonsense without getting angry and probably putting my foot in my mouth.

Thanks, ftmax. I'm surprised at my own resolve, honestly. "When you know who you are and what you want, you don't let anyone get you down." That was a quote I saw in the movie quotes thread recently...

Here's another update. He realized and admitted to me that I am the woman he wished he could be, and he didn't have to transition if he had me. And now I'm throwing it all away. I don't know if he was admitting it in a shameful way, or if he was hoping I would be kind enough to continue being his woman.

Are you all entertained by the soap opera that is my life yet?!

Oh my -- that *is* a complicated situation. Does your husband see a therapist?

Tomorrow night we're going to a support group together! I've already been there once, so I've met the core group. It's going to be interesting...but fun, I hope.

Eventually, we're going to do couple's therapy too. I have a place in mind, but haven't called yet. Holiday stuff starts this weekend, so...uh...kinda going crazy over here.

Fingers crossed! I hope it goes well!

Quote from: Gothic Dandy Luca on December 12, 2014, 05:08:06 PM
Thanks, ftmax. I'm surprised at my own resolve, honestly. "When you know who you are and what you want, you don't let anyone get you down." That was a quote I saw in the movie quotes thread recently...

Here's another update. He realized and admitted to me that I am the woman he wished he could be, and he didn't have to transition if he had me. And now I'm throwing it all away. I don't know if he was admitting it in a shameful way, or if he was hoping I would be kind enough to continue being his woman.

Are you all entertained by the soap opera that is my life yet?!

Wait, so if I'm to understand this correctly, then his solution is that you continue to exist as you are, but live vicariously through each other. LOL How the hell does that work?

By the way, I think I put that quote in the movie quotes thread. It's from Lost in Translation.

Keep on keeping on, Dandy. You got this.

-Tegs