Sorry , couldn't resist

www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8_xkuGbPhY

Quote from: Wynternight on January 30, 2015, 03:27:57 PM
...

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at that...

I vote laugh [emoji23]


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Quote from: missymay on January 30, 2015, 03:36:30 PM
You only weigh 65 lbs. ?  You are a tiny dancer...

I used to weigh over 380 lbs, I have not had gastric bypass surgery or anything like that.  Was able to lose it on my own as result of accepting myself, and living as who I am. Passing all the time would be nice, but once you get to the point you truly accept yourself for who you are its not your highest priority. Its just too bad it takes many of us to some dark places that some don't make it out of to reach that point.

Congratulations on your weight loss 

Sorry for the smart remark

I often feel like many trans* people swap one pretend gender role for another pretend gender role.  Many seem to be more concerned with putting on a performance than with being real. 

I wish we could get to a point where the thing that matters most to us is being true to your truest, best self.  And where no one would be harmed (not mentally, emotionally, or physically) for being mainly concerned about just being themselves. 

I suspect that if that day ever comes, passing will seem a lot less important because the sanctions for failure to pass will be removed. 

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 30, 2015, 11:06:54 PM
I often feel like many trans* people swap one pretend gender role for another pretend gender role.  Many seem to be more concerned with putting on a performance than with being real. 

I wish we could get to a point where the thing that matters most to us is being true to your truest, best self.  And where no one would be harmed (not mentally, emotionally, or physically) for being mainly concerned about just being themselves. 

I suspect that if that day ever comes, passing will seem a lot less important because the sanctions for failure to pass will be removed.

ditto

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 30, 2015, 11:06:54 PM
I often feel like many trans* people swap one pretend gender role for another pretend gender role.  Many seem to be more concerned with putting on a performance than with being real. 

I wish we could get to a point where the thing that matters most to us is being true to your truest, best self.  And where no one would be harmed (not mentally, emotionally, or physically) for being mainly concerned about just being themselves. 

I suspect that if that day ever comes, passing will seem a lot less important because the sanctions for failure to pass will be removed.

Here is my take on this question and I will apologize in advance if some might somehow find how I see this objectionable or somehow hurtful.  It is not intended to be.

I agree with 'The Phoenix' that "...if that day ever comes....where no one would be harmed (not mentally, emotionally, or physically) for being mainly concerned about just being,  themselves....passing will seem a lot less important because the sanctions for failure to pass will be removed".

Unfortunately that day has not yet come although it could argued that those 'sanctions' are significantly less harsh or apparent than they were 40 or even 20 years ago in certain parts of certain countries.

Nevertheless that not withstanding, the reality continues to be that unless one does in fact "pass" as their chosen or desired gender, they will be viewed by the majority of society as something "other than" that chosen gender or sex.  I guess that is the reality that those who do not 'pass" must accept.  They must be prepared to accept that reality.  If they do, as many on these boards seem to have done, and that reality appears better than their existing reality, (living/existing as the wrong gender), then "transition" would appear to be the better option.

Quote from: missymay on January 30, 2015, 10:50:19 PM
Congratations on your weight loss 

Sorry for the smart remark

No offense taken, and thank you.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 30, 2015, 11:06:54 PM
I wish we could get to a point where the thing that matters most to us is being true to your truest, best self.  And where no one would be harmed (not mentally, emotionally, or physically) for being mainly concerned about just being themselves. 

Can I invite you to look at this differently?

There is no one way to be socially human, right? For some, and I believe you're one of them, what people think of them and how they fit in means very little. Their relationship with themselves is the most important motivator for them. For such people, this is would be an ideal place to get to.

But not everyone is like that.

There are people, for whatever reason, who center themselves on relationships with other people. This isn't a BAD way to be, just a different one. For such people, defining how they connect with the people around them is as important, or more, than the way they connect to themselves. For some such people, what you suggest would be contrary to their nature. Being true to themselves MEANS centering on the way they present and interact with others.

Does that make any sense?

Quote from: bluebirdx88 on January 22, 2015, 05:26:55 PM
I was me, fulltime and authentically for 5 years till I started HRT..... This was never about 'passing' it was about being me... If I wanted to 'pass' I'd be an actress

I think you would make a great actress *as well*, gorgeous one x.

When I started, I didn't think about if I passed or not.  What I knew, is that I live in Boulder, CO, which has always been very LGBT friendly town.  And I knew that the people I work with would be cool with it, no matter what.

I think, they chance it because they don't care what others think.  They just want to live their life's, and just get it over with.

To Suzifommd nice approach to a different view and yes I agree with ya.

To The Pheonix not trying to gang up on ya here but after reading both I have come up with the following.

For importance of passing in a way that feels true to the person that is trying or is passing is that they not always act out one gender or another but rather the point of the transition is to portray yourself to you and others what you feel is as close to your true self that can be portrayed. Of course when thing get more intimate then your true self is really shown by your actions but to get to that point the other person first sees your physical form before your heart/spiritual/mental form therefor yes passing is important perhaps the outward projection is more important to some then others but that doesn't make either direction less important.

I admit I may never pass that well being 6 ft and not built small but from my perspective I have to try and in doing so maybe I will or the very least I hope I can show others my true self more so without saying anything but just being me or at least a part of me. Sorry to early on this road to make any experienced judgements just how I can think this might go. Of course I also worry about potential abuse due to looking 1/2 male 1/2 female before I can get to a point of hopefully passing to be well close enough to be female to not be noticed aka passing.

Basically people tend to judge a book by its cover before they read what is on the inside. For some they don't care so much about the cover but what the book is about yet we always see that cover first. For some true beauty shines with their actions whether they look pretty or not so but it is of course sad that if we don't know that person we judge by sight before the heart or brain but that is reality.

We are all different and perceive the world differently. As a proven example of this is the idea of seeing color one can say the color of dot on the wall is pink or maybe purple or maybe its fuschia they could all be right just a matter of one perspective of the color and what they were taught and or learned along the way. Its the subtle things and life that are variably perceived if that makes any sense with no right nor wrong kind of like the idea of black and white but what about the greys:)

Sorry tend to ramble hard to but some things to words:)

I personnally don't mind about passing or not. In fact, I don't care about showing as a woman, man or whatever. I quite enjoy playing the "male" role - it's pretty likely I'll still dress as male from time to time just for pleasure after transitionning. If I were not to pass, I'd just wear male clothing for the rest of my life. I don't really care.

To me transitionning has pretty much nothing to do with the gender I want to live in, but more with the body I have to live with. I don't especially hate my body, but I never considered it as my own. There's something about self-image here, but also about physical feeling I guess.

Here again it's just my own story and point of vue.

Quote from: suzifrommd on January 31, 2015, 04:56:28 AM
Can I invite you to look at this differently?

There is no one way to be socially human, right? For some, and I believe you're one of them, what people think of them and how they fit in means very little. Their relationship with themselves is the most important motivator for them. For such people, this is would be an ideal place to get to.

But not everyone is like that.

There are people, for whatever reason, who center themselves on relationships with other people. This isn't a BAD way to be, just a different one. For such people, defining how they connect with the people around them is as important, or more, than the way they connect to themselves. For some such people, what you suggest would be contrary to their nature. Being true to themselves MEANS centering on the way they present and interact with others.

Does that make any sense?

We are all social creatures.  The reason we are here in this forum is to develop a sense of community and talk to like-minded individuals.  Help those who need it, ask for help, or just learn more information.  No transperson is an island.

I like now being able to blend in with people easily.  In the past, I've been singled out and harassed, bullied, kicked, punched, raped, spat on and cursed at for not blending in.  "Passing" let's me be feminine without triggering negative responses from others.  Not everyone gets a hardon for bigotry, but I don't generally trust people, not until I get to know them.

In the end it comes down to a sad game of Would you rather?:
  Would you rather be miserable with GID or transition and risk offending a violent bigot sometime down the road?
  Would you rather; hide yourself away in baggy clothing, gaining weight, or secluding yourself, or face discrimination by letting people see the real you?  Having real relationships that aren't built on compounded secrets, omissions and lies.
  Would you rather trust the people you love and need in your life, or start over from scratch, post SRS, so none will know you from your former life nor your trans status?
  Would you rather tackle transitioning alone, or with the help of others who may judge you?

I could go on and on and on and on.

For me, I got to the point where my choices were between probable suicide or getting help and transitioning.  Trust is still hard for me, after quite a few people broke it throughout my life.  But I'm lucky that many of my friends today and all my immediate family are very supportive.  And I'm slowly rebuilding a healthy life, career and the beginnings of a social life. 

There a few people in my life whose opinions matter greatly to me, and I define myself as their daughter, sister, or friend.  My social support network is the only reason I'm here today.  And to be perfectly honest, my relationship with myself has been dysfunctional at best...[emoji53]


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Dunno...just a thought,but I was worried about how I would be perceived by the public,but really,how much do you look around at people?i only notice those who dress to stand out,loud clothes etc.
When I knew I would be going out of town I'd wear a pair of mini shorts and a v neck low tee. I'd worry about the thoughts of other drivers,then I had to rethink...I'm not looking at them or what they're wearing,let alone see below a particular point of their car they probably aren't looking at me.
I now look down and notice my chest protruding more than an inch and a half,but even my close friends who don't know yet haven't noticed.then again looking in the window side on it appears not much different.

It made me more relaxed,less self conscious,and less concerned that people are staring.

Been holding back, trying to consider all reasons, there are so many...
- Confident; The ability to do something regardless of outcome, sometimes over confident people are seemingly flippant
- Blasé; The ability to do something even knowing it may cause grief elsewhere, often these may be overly confident people
- Desperate; They simply cannot cope with remaining as they are, often irrational and agitated

To label but a few... the first two are pretty obvious, worked with these sort of people most of my life in IT  and I really admire these types, even tried to emulate, but can't  . However the last gets somewhat trickier, the psychology of people and their disposition play here. I must honestly admit I am not sure I have been desperate to the point to throw caution to the wind, but maybe I just hide my feelings form others and myself?

In all honesty I would want to be sure I could "more or less" pass first, certainly would want to do the primary surgeries needed to give me the confidence before F/T, because I am a bit of a perfectionist, want to fit in, be part of the group, want to be wanted (however I know that may not come to fruition, will need to modify some there  )

Agreeing with Katie (Obfuskatie)... we are social animals and enjoy being "included" or accepted amongst others... and people do not enjoy being singled out; everyone is so different (obviously) their needs, comfort levels, sociability etc... that's what make us human 

Not sure if my ramblings make sense, often struggle in trying to be concise???

L Katy

Quote from: suzifrommd on January 31, 2015, 04:56:28 AM
Can I invite you to look at this differently?

There is no one way to be socially human, right? For some, and I believe you're one of them, what people think of them and how they fit in means very little. Their relationship with themselves is the most important motivator for them. For such people, this is would be an ideal place to get to.

But not everyone is like that.

There are people, for whatever reason, who center themselves on relationships with other people. This isn't a BAD way to be, just a different one. For such people, defining how they connect with the people around them is as important, or more, than the way they connect to themselves. For some such people, what you suggest would be contrary to their nature. Being true to themselves MEANS centering on the way they present and interact with others.

Does that make any sense?

Thank you, Suzi, for some food for thought. 

But isn't it really just another way of saying that people are subject to sanction for failing to present in a way that conforms to other peoples' expectations?  And that the sanction is itself more or less important to different people?

I actually do care about what other people think of me.  It actually alarms me that people find me memorable because it worries me that there is something odd about me that makes me stuck out from the crowd; something about me that is considered weird, that attracts attention.

So for example, I was at the Eastern Market in D.C. yesterday looking for oranges.  I had been down there a week ago looking for oranges and they didn't have any of the kind I wanted.  But the woman I had asked about them last week and her boss both remembered me.  Why?  Well, I am a trans* person so I have the same worries that many of us have about passing, acceptance, blending in, etc.  So my mind immediately goes to worrying that she thought I was funny looking.  Or something was off about my manner.  Or something seen as different related to trans*ness. 

I care about what others think of me.  But I care more about being authentic, real, and genuinely me.  So I'm not going to change anything about myself based on that.  Someone else might care more about it and might try to change something about themselves to be less noticed, less likely to be remembered, and more able to blend in, disappear, and hide. 

Isn't that difference in reaction really all that we are saying?  Or am I missing something?

I know this has been said in more than one way and also I'm not mtf, but for me I was lying to my child. We don't have money or family or prestige, but we can have integrity if we are honest. In my opinion I was a bad person and betraying my own ethics when I knew what I could be and kept dodging the idea of transition. Eternal suffering would be better than teaching a kid that it's okay to sublimate one's own identity in service of acceptability.

'Passing' is as much mental as it is physical. In fact, I would venture that it is *mostly* psychological.

If I had waited until 2016 to lose all of my male edges, I would still have to go through the whole socialization/adjustment period of living full-time - and that *was* the hardest part.

The sooner the better. I believe that waiting to be physically 100% holds us back, rather than helping us.

When I was 19 and looking to transition, passing was very important to me (so was surgery).  I saw it as the end all be all and I had thoughts that if I couldn't pass, I didn't know I'd do.  I'd meet older transwomen at my support group and many didn't pass well.  I didn't get it.

Now, 21 years later, I get it.  I've reached a point where I don't care if I pass.  I'd like to and I still want to, but it's no longer required for me (like surgery).  I just want to be myself.  I'd like to pass and be accepted as a  ciswoman, I'd be okay if people weren't sure or even knew me as a transwoman.  Of course, that's me talking before I've ever been out in public dressed en femme at my age.  So who knows! [emoji2]