Hmmm, I was close to my father and we did things together. Close to male and female members of the extended family. Neighborhood friends were all male for my first few years I remember in detail ~4-7 y.o. Mostly male friends in grade school, most of the teachers were women.... I was trained to be a perfect little gentleman, something that would forever make me feel out of step with modern times.

Yet I was often "mistaken" as a girl growing up and carried myself in a femme manner until it was pointed out and I made the changes I had to in order to cover it up. I never got boys but I never really got girls either. I find people of all genders to be strange creatures with quite unusual thinking habits.

I have been asked where I learned to carry myself so well and so much like a woman. I cannot answer. I have been asked to teach others and I cannot.

This does not make me any more or any less of the person that I am, just one of the "lucky" few who had one less thing to worry about during and after transition.

heres my 2c... but there is an amount of programing, but this in my view, is easily overcome by someone who is genuinely female (lets use m2f in this example as its most debated) behaving femininely, and a female behaving naturally are two different things, and its visible. i dont mean to dishearten those who belive they dont have female manerisms, but physical learned behaviour with the intent of showing something often looks false... And its visible in transwomen, there are some (dont kill me here) who transition for the wrong reasons, some who use sites like this and others, to gain information to tell therapists what they want to hear, for thier own ends, which is thier belief that they should transition, or its a good idea. that transition might save thier rotten life, or a breakdown of some sort. These people exist, and thier easy to spot and read, they scream male with every part of themselves, nomatter how well they visually pass. Some transwomen are genuinely female in responses and behaviour naturally, weather this is always the case in life, or otherwise. and these are the hardest to read, because like natal females, they dont behave in a certain way to prove thier female, they are.... then there are some, who with a little help, and 'deprograming' can express thier true femininity. but thats all thats needed, some direction, one doesnt LEARN how to be seen as female, if your having to constantly think about behaviour, day in day out,  its not natural for you, and natural is what this games all about...
call this a rant, call it biggoted, feel free, but only those who fall into the aforementioned category, and i fear these will be the ones to kick up a fuss, a delusional minority. Dont mistake this post for saying if you havent always acted naturally for a female, you arnt. Thats not what my post says, so get new specs
R

To some extent, everyone has a set of female mannerisms. Everyone - boy or girl. Its where we get caught up in whether or not that is a measure of ->-bleeped-<-ness do we get confused I think. You can have very feminine straight guys and you can have very masculine female girls - doesn't make 'em trans. It has a large part to do with personality - some people I guess have a more "feminine" personality. Some girls who happen to have a very feminine personality are also happen to be trans and yet that doesn't make them ->-bleeped-<-r nor does it make their dysphoria stronger. Some things are just part of social expression and I feel it that has very little to do with dysphoria.

I have just been reading Donna Rose's book where she talk about getting a life coach to learn how to be female and franckly I think it is wrong. Any transision I do will be so I can act and feel natural - not to remeber another set of steps and always wonder if I am getting it right. I want to be me plain and simple - if it is female it is not something I should have to learn - it should be me finally relaxed and showing my true self.

Alice

thats what  i mean alice.... if you need a coach to learn how to behave, your just putting on a mask, and isnt that why yo transition? to be YOU?
some folk are lieing to themselves...
R

That's right.
Oh I so agree with you Rachael and Alice.
I'm tired of wearing a mask and I'm sure not going to trade one gender mask for another.
To be the real me is where it is at.
If I'm not female enought for the world that is there problem.

So for me I would say that the your gender behavior comes naturally.
Unlike things that go alone with being a woman like wear makeup, styling your hair, and putting on nail polish. Those are things that must be learned.

Jillieann   

i disagree, thier trappings of femininity, but not part of being a woman...
i dont wear makeup much, if at all, (maybe for going out sometimes) it doesnt make me less female, i have short nails i dont paint often, i wear pants, am i less of a girl? no. Woman isnt what she wears, woman is the fire that burns inside...
R

Rachael I think you misunderstood me. 
I mean that being female is natural if it is who you are.
But those other things, the trappings as you called them, have to be learned if you want to use them.
Myself I do like them, sometimes, and I have spent allot of time learning how to do them correctly. 
Hope that clears the air between us.

Jillieann

Oh and if I don't use a little makeup I look terrible, that is just like a guy.

Quote from: Lisbeth on October 30, 2007, 03:12:51 PM
It's all learned, but it's not all consciously learned.

*Agrees with Lisbeth*

ALL behavior is learned in some fashion, consciously or not.. 

You also can't gender behavior.  Just because a woman is brash, intense, stubborn, doesn't make her any less of a woman,  And if a man is sweet sensitive it doesn't make him less of a man. I know some women that are manlier then men... and vice versa, I have guy friends that are more femme than girls I know...

Behavior. is. not. gendered.

i agree, i know im not daft enough to think i just had the knowlage, but i do know i subconsiously behave like my peers, and it comes naturally to behave that way, as that set of programing fits
although i do belive nature has some part. A in initial behaviour and personality, secondly in the foundations to BUILD on... if your not female in the depth of yourself, subconsiously, you WILL act male... men will be men, girls will be girls, body means nothing.
R

But then what do non-binarys act like?

I think everyone acts like themselves.

evidently non binarys act like non binaries,  a mix id guess?
but i think gender behaviour makes non binaries irelevant to this discussion, its a subject relating to transexual individuals, and behaviour related to binary genders.
men and women, and its complicated enough!
R

Quote from: Rachael on October 30, 2007, 09:26:22 PM
evidently non binarys act like non binaries,  a mix id guess?
but i think gender behaviour makes non binaries irelevant to this discussion, its a subject relating to transexual individuals, and behaviour related to binary genders.
men and women, and its complicated enough!
R

Non-binarys CAN have a gender as well.. not ALL non-binaries are null..  So why would a discussion about gender be limited to transsexuals only?  why not non binaries and cisgendered as well?

-Alison  (is not  or ...  Alison is    ... and my opinion counts too?)

edited to be less confrontational -- I posted while ticked off -- I'm sorry Rachael.

What Rachael was trying to say was that non-binary folk's behaviors are defined by how they act. If the behavior of someone that is that particular mixture of gender is defined by how that person is acting already, they're already naturally acting like who they are.

This discussion was intended to be about transexuals I would imagine as some indication of whether those transitioning from one sex to another demonstrate natural tendencies or if they're learned.

She was saying (we think) "You folks are good already with how you act, you define your natural behaviors, we're talking about the people that have to switch"

In this case I think the non-binaries aren't applicable to the intended topic. A more specific topic title would probably have cleared that up but then again it was posted in the MTF section, so we stand by the assumed intended audience. Cisgendered people could probably be brought up in this discussion as well as a reference point, but mostly the binary genders are what are being discussed if only because male and female behaviors are more universally understood.

No one should contest your gender Alison because you define its specifics.

Mia and Marq
Halloween'd

Quote from: Rachael on October 30, 2007, 07:21:52 PM
i agree, i know im not daft enough to think i just had the knowlage, but i do know i subconsiously behave like my peers, and it comes naturally to behave that way, as that set of programing fits
although i do belive nature has some part. A in initial behaviour and personality, secondly in the foundations to BUILD on... if your not female in the depth of yourself, subconsiously, you WILL act male... men will be men, girls will be girls, body means nothing.
R

Beautifuly said Rachael..........I agree completely.





beth

This is all quite amusing.  One of the most annoying things a fair proportion of cisgendered people do if they know somebody who is trans is analyse their behaviour to see if it's 'feminine enough'.  If it's not, they're just a man in a dress.

I've met women who heavily give off masculine vibes and men who give off feminine vibes.  How many of these are transsexuals in denial?  Probably very few!  The thing is, cisgendered people are allowed to act however they want without too much scrutiny (applies more to women than men I'll admit), transsexuals aren't.

Seems a lot of people here are in agreement with the old NHS technique of only letting people transition if they are excessively feminine acting and turn up to all their appointments in a flowery dress and a tonne of wonderfully applied makeup.

I'd prefer to base my identity on a deep knowledge of how my body should be and what  I *am*, rather than based on just what group of people I act like.  If I did the latter I'd transition M2F, it's funny how many transsexual women have told me I'm girlier than them and can't understand why I don't just take the 'easier' router of living as a woman than as a 'me'.

Marq and mia are right, i meant that this pertains to a theoretical shift, from one gendered set of behavior, to another, whereas non binary people, weather nul, both, or a hint in each direction usually have their behavior innate to them. Alison, i didn't mean to offend, im sorry, i KNOW, from some experience of interacting with 'androgyny' (suitable grouping?) people, and there is no aquardness, no robotic behavior, they are themselves, and it shows through, same with  a large number of m2fs, then there are the robotic m2fs with no clue how a female behaves, or thinks, and use male thought patterns in everything, TRUST ME, ive met one, and know of several, its bloomin obvious and scary. Im not one for magic, but people have an essence, a being almost, and you can tell when a person is faking. atleast i can, things they say, how they behave,woman is not woman does.
andra: masculinity doesnt make the man, and femininity doesn't make the female. these are expressions, and no matter how masculine a woman is, she will always be a woman. (unless their a man which voids this idea) Femininity, and behaving and thinking like a female, are not one thing. Masculinity, is separeate from behaving and thinking like a man.
Beth, thankyou
R

Quote from: Rachael on October 31, 2007, 05:33:13 AM
Im not one for magic, but people have an essence, a being almost, and you can tell when a person is faking. atleast i can, things they say, how they behave,woman is not woman does.

I think the faking thing is the key here.  The people who are outed by their behaviour are those who try to be something they're not.  If a really butch m2f just dresses and acts really butch it's not going to get her read, however if she starts trying to put on a really feminine act it quite possibly will.

"Masculinity, is separeate from behaving and thinking like a man."  I must be missing something here, I don't understand what the difference is between a butch masculine acting woman and a similarly acting man except that they're happy with different hormones and different bodies.   

does a man behaving femininely make him pass for, or be taken for a woman?


And yeah, being true to yourself is key, hence why i live in my skater jeans and hoodies, tanks if its warm, im a tomboy, and happy with that. tho ill need to buck my ideas up soon with regards to formals and work ><
R

Quote from: Rachael on October 31, 2007, 05:48:30 AM
does a man behaving femininely make him pass for, or be taken for a woman?

No, and this is the key.  Neither would a transsexual woman behaving masculine out her or make her any less of a woman.