Didn't transition for 6 years(the amount of time I knew transition was possible) because I figured I wouldn't pass. Got to the point of suicide or transition chose suicide at first until I was caught midstride and talked out of it. Very very glad that happened. 

Just saying for anyone in the same situation, couldn't see it before, but there is more to it than passing.  Like others have said the feeling of getting to be yourself is nicer than you can imagine.  I still dont believe I will ever pass without a bunch of ffs(i cant afford for years), but since starting hrt life is so dang good

Still have ups and downs but the ups are more frequent and higher and the downs more rare.

And it's somewhat of a leap of faith.. You can never be sure how you will look until you do it..

Quote from: Kristyn74 on February 01, 2015, 06:12:37 AM
Dunno...just a thought,but I was worried about how I would be perceived by the public,but really,how much do you look around at people?i only notice those who dress to stand out,loud clothes etc.

I missed this earlier, but I totally agree.

The truth is that people really don't care. We are our *own* worst critics.

Beating our inner critic can be real tough - but achieve this and nobody can touch you (on the off chance that they even try!)

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 01, 2015, 10:16:45 AM
I care about what others think of me.  But I care more about being authentic, real, and genuinely me.  So I'm not going to change anything about myself based on that.  Someone else might care more about it and might try to change something about themselves to be less noticed, less likely to be remembered, and more able to blend in, disappear, and hide. 

Isn't that difference in reaction really all that we are saying?  Or am I missing something?

Sure. Probably a matter of priorities, right? You care what other people think, but it's more important for you to be authentic. For others, perhaps, projecting the image they want gets the higher priority.

For me, I want people to see and know the genuine me. Knowing my history too early on in the relationship might interfere with that. If they know I'm trans before they get to know me, they might substitute their prejudices and preconceptions for their knowledge of the real me.

But people I'm going to have a longer relationship with, I really want them to know all my history. That's why I came out at my UU congregation. These people are going to be my family. I want them to know me.

I see a woman quite often walk by where I eat and have coffee. She works at  a university across the street from where I live. I've seen her for at least 10 years from when she just started taking hormones. she's quite tall and heavy built, but she just went and went full time before the E started to kick in. She just dressed nicely and went about her business . You can see how much the E has worked on her and she looks all right.

Quote from: suzifrommd on February 02, 2015, 05:10:11 PM
Sure. Probably a matter of priorities, right? You care what other people think, but it's more important for you to be authentic. For others, perhaps, projecting the image they want gets the higher priority.

For me, I want people to see and know the genuine me. Knowing my history too early on in the relationship might interfere with that. If they know I'm trans before they get to know me, they might substitute their prejudices and preconceptions for their knowledge of the real me.

But people I'm going to have a longer relationship with, I really want them to know all my history. That's why I came out at my UU congregation. These people are going to be my family. I want them to know me.

Suzi, it sounds like you are assuming that I was suggesting that all trans* people ought to be out about being trans*.  I'm not suggesting anything of the sort.  And unless I'm misunderstanding, that is not what this topic is about.

My own experience is that if I want to be authentic, then it is easiest to do that if people do not know about me being trans*.  When people know, I am subject to a variety of assumptions and pressures, both subtle and overt, both internal and external, and from both trans* and cis people.  When I want to relax, be genuine with people, and let them know me as a person, I do not tell people I'm trans*.  It only gets in the way. 

Alex Kapitan described this experience on the Standing On The Side Of Love blog much better than I ever could:

Quote from: Alex Kapitan link=http://standingonthesideoflove.org/tag/alex-kapitan/page/2/
Myth #2: People who are "out" are liberated and those who are not are living a lie, deceptive, and/or self-hating.

This one is a doozy. Although it's reflective of many peoples' experiences prior to coming to understand, accept, and affirm an authentic identity for themselves, it gets applied with a broad brush that erases profound differences around identity and cultural context. Frankly, we could do a lot of good if we stopped conflating the process of coming out to oneself with the processes of disclosing one's identity to others. Many people are perfectly secure and out in their identities for themselves and have no need or desire to share them with anyone else. For example, being in a life partnership doesn't keep a person from drawing strength from their bisexual identity, but whether they share that information with the world is solely up to them.

. . .

And let's not forget the profound differences between sexual identity and gender identity when it comes to disclosure. Take, for example, a man who went through a gender transition a decade or two ago. Happily, he is seen and experienced by everyone around him as unquestionably male. He is out and proud, my friends! Living as his true authentic self in the world, seen by others the way he sees himself—it doesn't get more out than that. So if this man chooses to tell someone that once upon a time he was someone's eldest daughter, that's a disclosure—it's not "coming out" because it doesn't help him live more authentically in the world or be more authentically seen. Rather, it puts him at risk of his gender identity being questioned and disrespected, which makes it harder for him to be his authentic male self. . . .

This pretty much nails my experience perfectly.  I'm out and proud.  Except when I'm required to be a symbol for trans* people.  Then it's harder to be my authentic self. 

I think the notion of outness as an integral, essential part of being authentic is something that people have learned from the gay community and misapplied to the trans* community.  For gay people, being out can be very freeing and affirming.  You don't have to get an opposite sex platonic friend to pose as your date for a party, for example.  For trans* people, it can be anything but freeing because so many people, no matter how supportive and affirming, will see a trans* person as something other than the wo/man that the trans* person sees themselves as.  This is an essential difference between being gay and being trans*.

Not every gay person sees themselves this way, of course.  And not every trans* person does either.  But these experiences seem to be quite common.  Hence the "problem" of how many trans* people transition and disappear, never to be heard from by the trans* community ever again.

So if I'm not urging outness, then what am I saying? 

Well, it seems to me that a lot of trans* people have a vision of what "being a man" or "being a woman" is.  And they pursue that vision regardless of whether it is authentic and true to themselves.  Hence all the discussions we have all over the Internet, in support groups, etc. about how to act like a man a woman.  Learning to affect "correct mannerisms" for example, is a big big thing to a lot of trans* people.  They then spend years monitoring and policing their body language to try and get it right because what they are doing is an affectation instead of doing what actually comes naturally to them. 

What I am suggesting is that one day, when not passing no longer has the severe consequences it can have today, people won't need those affectations anymore.  They will be more free to be true to themselves and behave naturally. 

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 02, 2015, 06:23:04 PM
Suzi, it sounds like you are assuming that I was suggesting that all trans* people ought to be out about being trans*.  I'm not suggesting anything of the sort.  And unless I'm misunderstanding, that is not what this topic is about.

My own experience is that if I want to be authentic, then it is easiest to do that if people do not know about me being trans*.  When people know, I am subject to a variety of assumptions and pressures, both subtle and overt, both internal and external, and from both trans* and cis people.  When I want to relax, be genuine with people, and let them know me as a person, I do not tell people I'm trans*.  It only gets in the way. 

Alex Kapitan described this experience on the Standing On The Side Of Love blog much better than I ever could:

This pretty much nails my experience perfectly.  I'm out and proud.  Except when I'm required to be a symbol for trans* people.  Then it's harder to be my authentic self. 

I think the notion of outness as an integral, essential part of being authentic is something that people have learned from the gay community and misapplied to the trans* community.  For gay people, being out can be very freeing and affirming.  You don't have to get an opposite sex platonic friend to pose as your date for a party, for example.  For trans* people, it can be anything but freeing because so many people, no matter how supportive and affirming, will see a trans* person as something other than the wo/man that the trans* person sees themselves as.  This is an essential difference between being gay and being trans*.

Not every gay person sees themselves this way, of course.  And not every trans* person does either.  But these experiences seem to be quite common.  Hence the "problem" of how many trans* people transition and disappear, never to be heard from by the trans* community ever again.

So if I'm not urging outness, then what am I saying? 

Well, it seems to me that a lot of trans* people have a vision of what "being a man" or "being a woman" is.  And they pursue that vision regardless of whether it is authentic and true to themselves.  Hence all the discussions we have all over the Internet, in support groups, etc. about how to act like a man a woman.  Learning to affect "correct mannerisms" for example, is a big big thing to a lot of trans* people.  They then spend years monitoring and policing their body language to try and get it right because what they are doing is an affectation instead of doing what actually comes naturally to them. 

What I am suggesting is that one day, when not passing no longer has the severe consequences it can have today, people won't need those affectations anymore.  They will be more free to be true to themselves and behave naturally.

ditto

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 02, 2015, 06:23:04 PM
What I am suggesting is that one day, when not passing no longer has the severe consequences it can have today, people won't need those affectations anymore.  They will be more free to be true to themselves and behave naturally.

I can only speak for myself. I've put a lot of effort into passing, practicing mannerisms, voice, painstakingly hiding anything that could out me. I didn't do it because of severe consequences. In fact nothing bad has ever happened to me on those days when I'm not passable, other than some strange looks.

But I think that gendering is not something societal or cultural. I think gendering is an inborn tendency, wired into our brains. I don't think societal acceptance or a deep understanding of transgender people will change that. I mean, look at the way I am with some of my non-passing MtF friends. I have so much trouble gendering them as female, because my brain tells me they are male. Few lay people are more knowledgeable or experienced with transgender people than I am, but my brain knows what it knows and stubbornly sends signals that those people are male that no knowledge otherwise seems to interrupt.

I also think that there are differences between the genders that people internalize from a young age, so that once someone genders you male, they will see you as a male and have trouble treating you as a woman even if they intellectually know you are one.

I want to be gendered and treated as a woman by people I meet. Even if they know all the way through to the core of their soul that trans women are female, they will treat me differently if they see a man when they look at me. So I'm willing to do any number of things that aren't related to being true to myself in order to show them enough of a woman that seeing me as one and treating me accordingly is as easy as I can make it.

Quote from: suzifrommd on February 02, 2015, 06:59:42 PM
I can only speak for myself. I've put a lot of effort into passing, practicing mannerisms, voice, painstakingly hiding anything that could out me. I didn't do it because of severe consequences. In fact nothing bad has ever happened to me on those days when I'm not passable, other than some strange looks.

But I think that gendering is not something societal or cultural. I think gendering is an inborn tendency, wired into our brains. I don't think societal acceptance or a deep understanding of transgender people will change that. I mean, look at the way I am with some of my non-passing MtF friends. I have so much trouble gendering them as female, because my brain tells me they are male. Few lay people are more knowledgeable or experienced with transgender people than I am, but my brain knows what it knows and stubbornly sends signals that those people are male that no knowledge otherwise seems to interrupt.

I also think that there are differences between the genders that people internalize from a young age, so that once someone genders you male, they will see you as a male and have trouble treating you as a woman even if they intellectually know you are one.

I want to be gendered and treated as a woman by people I meet. Even if they know all the way through to the core of their soul that trans women are female, they will treat me differently if they see a man when they look at me. So I'm willing to do any number of things that aren't related to being true to myself in order to show them enough of a woman that seeing me as one and treating me accordingly is as easy as I can make it.

And if you could be treated and seen as a woman without having to practice voice, mannerisms, etc, would you still practice voice, mannerisms, etc?   

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 02, 2015, 07:17:14 PM
And if you could be treated and seen as a woman without having to practice voice, mannerisms, etc, would you still practice voice, mannerisms, etc?   

My first thought was, heck no, I have way better ways to spend my time and brain cells.

But I really do have a sense of accomplishment at how feminine I've been able to become. If it makes sense, I like the Suzi better who can talk with a sweet feminine voice and have a woman's fluid movements, dress, skin, etc. Maybe passing is a validation of my accomplishment, like olympic judges holding up scorecards.

Quote from: suzifrommd on February 02, 2015, 08:33:11 PM
My first thought was, heck no, I have way better ways to spend my time and brain cells.

I suspect that most would not.  And that's my point. 

Not everything that is serious is dramatic.  Losing the right to define yourself or losing the respect for your fundamental identity seems to me like a pretty serious consequence of not passing.  And I rather strongly suspect that most people would not practice learning to practice manner, voice, etc. if it were likely that their identities would be disrespected.

By the way, I do know very well the feeling you described of having it be difficult to get the gender right of people who don't pass.  I have a hard time with that too.

Quote
But I really do have a sense of accomplishment at how feminine I've been able to become. If it makes sense, I like the Suzi better who can talk with a sweet feminine voice and have a woman's fluid movements, dress, skin, etc. Maybe passing is a validation of my accomplishment, like olympic judges holding up scorecards.

Yup.  But what if there were no Olympic judges holding up scorecards?  What if people learned to respect one another's identities even if they don't pass?  What if everyone gets scored a perfect 10 regardless of whether they pass or not?  The sense of accomplishment might fade if the accomplishment were so non-essential. 

what if your personality became more fundamental than appearance , such as voice, looks and mannerisms .

I can't see how personality would really be that essential; people don't usually assume "oh, that girl is trans!" when I'm being assertive.  They just say I'm a bitch, which is their problem.  There's a world of difference between personality and appearance when it comes to passing.

Quote from: missymay on January 30, 2015, 03:19:59 PM

True Story:  when I changed my gender at my auto insurance company, they increased my premium; 

That's weird it's supposed to decrease.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 02, 2015, 07:17:14 PM
And if you could be treated and seen as a woman without having to practice voice, mannerisms, etc, would you still practice voice, mannerisms, etc?

Maybe yes because I want to be seen in a certain way. I want people to look at me and admire me not just think I don't care about myself.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 02, 2015, 06:23:04 PM
Well, it seems to me that a lot of trans* people have a vision of what "being a man" or "being a woman" is.  And they pursue that vision regardless of whether it is authentic and true to themselves.  Hence all the discussions we have all over the Internet, in support groups, etc. about how to act like a man a woman.  Learning to affect "correct mannerisms" for example, is a big big thing to a lot of trans* people.  They then spend years monitoring and policing their body language to try and get it right because what they are doing is an affectation instead of doing what actually comes naturally to them. 

I've been wrestling with these sorts of issues myself lately. Something that seems significant to me is that cis folks spend far more time learning these mannerisms than any trans person ever will, but that time isn't tallied up and thought about because it's lumped in with the experiences of growing up.

I find that I think I feel differently about changes or efforts that are sort of "making up" for missed experiences than I do about those that are more like arbitrary changes to oneself. For example, I have no hesitation about HRT and little about GRS (at this point anyway, when it's on the distant horizon), but BA or FFS provoke far more complicated feelings. Somehow, for me, those brush up against being changes for vanity's sake in a way that other procedures don't. (I don't mean to be offensive or judgmental about others here, btw, I am speaking solely about myself.)

Quote from: suzifrommd on February 02, 2015, 06:59:42 PM
I can only speak for myself. I've put a lot of effort into passing, practicing mannerisms, voice, painstakingly hiding anything that could out me. I didn't do it because of severe consequences. In fact nothing bad has ever happened to me on those days when I'm not passable, other than some strange looks.

But I think that gendering is not something societal or cultural. I think gendering is an inborn tendency, wired into our brains. I don't think societal acceptance or a deep understanding of transgender people will change that. I mean, look at the way I am with some of my non-passing MtF friends. I have so much trouble gendering them as female, because my brain tells me they are male. Few lay people are more knowledgeable or experienced with transgender people than I am, but my brain knows what it knows and stubbornly sends signals that those people are male that no knowledge otherwise seems to interrupt.

I also think that there are differences between the genders that people internalize from a young age, so that once someone genders you male, they will see you as a male and have trouble treating you as a woman even if they intellectually know you are one.

I want to be gendered and treated as a woman by people I meet. Even if they know all the way through to the core of their soul that trans women are female, they will treat me differently if they see a man when they look at me. So I'm willing to do any number of things that aren't related to being true to myself in order to show them enough of a woman that seeing me as one and treating me accordingly is as easy as I can make it.

I couldn't agree with this more.

It is absolutely true that gendering is not something learned but it is how we are wired. So I'm going to play nature's little game and make myself as close to the norm as possible. Not hyper feminine but just a normal ordinary woman. A beautiful one if possible but average and normal woman. Emphasis on woman.

Quote from: stephaniec on February 02, 2015, 09:22:26 PM
what if your personality became more fundamental than appearance , such as voice, looks and mannerisms .

In some cases it is. Voice for example. Clothes make the man but the voice makes the woman.

Quote from: stephaniec on February 02, 2015, 09:22:26 PM
what if your personality became more fundamental than appearance , such as voice, looks and mannerisms .

If this question is directed at me, then I apologize because I do not understand the question.

Quote from: jeni on February 02, 2015, 09:46:40 PM
I've been wrestling with these sorts of issues myself lately. Something that seems significant to me is that cis folks spend far more time learning these mannerisms than any trans person ever will, but that time isn't tallied up and thought about because it's lumped in with the experiences of growing up.

True.  But there are more reasons than just that for viewing a cispersons learning differently.  Just off the top of my head:
(1) Cis-people don't usually take lessons or consciously study their body language.  So far as I'm aware, courses of actual study are unique to trans* people.
(2) Cis-people's body language typically is not motivated by fear that their language will be cause them to be seen as a different gender if they fail to conform to a specific image.
(3) Some of a cis-person's body language is related to physical features.  An easy example is the way women brush back their hair.  Men don't typically do that because they usually have shorter hair.  Or one that cannot be easily changed with a haircut is differences in gait when walking.  I'm told that it can be uncomfortable for most men to cross their legs as women often do because "equipment" would get squished.  And so on.
(4) It really is not known how much body language is learned by a cis person versus how much is hard wired.  As far as I know, the resolution of nature versus nurture here is unknown.   
(5) Cis-people do not seem to feel the same pressure to conform to an arbitrary image that many trans* people do.  If you went up to the butchest woman in the world and told her she was moving wrong for a woman, I doubt she'd pay much attention to you.  Say that to a transwoman, especially at a certain point in her journey, and she may be mortified.  As a result, it seems like cispeople are much more free to do what comes naturally to them. 

Quote from: jeni on February 02, 2015, 09:46:40 PM
I find that I think I feel differently about changes or efforts that are sort of "making up" for missed experiences than I do about those that are more like arbitrary changes to oneself.

And here's a very weak spot in my vision that I must acknowledge.  Somehow I seem to have been born with a lot of this knowledge and such.  It's just there for me, and I have no idea where it came from.  Therefore, I am
(1) unable to comment very much because I don't have that experience; and
(2) keenly aware that when I talk about just being authentic, I am talking about something that works easily for me because being authentic makes me pretty gender conforming.  If you've talked to me on mumble, for example, you will have heard that I have a somewhat unusual voice in our community, particularly because it actually is my voice and I never had to train it.  So it's fine for me to say "hey just be yourself" when that means for me that everything fits in pretty cisnormative ways.  It's a lot harder for a person who ends up highly nonconforming if they just relax and be themselves because they may face a lot of societal sanction.  Therefore I am perhaps unfit to comment on such an issue, 

. . . but of course that's the whole point I am trying to make.  If nonconformity did not have such consequences, then maybe people would put feel so much need to go out of their way and try so hard to conform!

Quote from: ImagineKate on February 02, 2015, 09:45:02 PM
Maybe yes because I want to be seen in a certain way. I want people to look at me and admire me not just think I don't care about myself.

But isn't that also another societal sanction that you are concerned about avoiding?  Another expectation you are worried about meeting?

I believe that if you are being true to yourself then, by definition, you are doing it right.  I don't think that society at large shares my view.  I hope one day it will. 

I was just saying that if society was based on the character of one's soul rather than ones physical appearance , such as voice , mannerisms etc, would it really matter if you  " passed" , or maybe what I'm trying to say if society truly realized the meaning of what Dr. Martin Luther King was saying we could obliterate the craziness  of the value placed on each other because of the way they look.