Quote from: stephaniec on February 02, 2015, 10:49:55 PM
I was just saying that if society was based on the character of one's soul rather than ones physical appearance , such as voice , mannerisms etc, would it really matter if you  " passed" , or maybe what I'm trying to say if society truly realized the meaning of what Dr. Martin Luther King was saying we could obliterate the craziness  of the value placed on each other because of the way they look.

Total amen from me.

I hope you won't judge me for appearing to be insensitive to the feelings of others but this world, where nobody judges or genders you based on subliminal body language, (voice, appearance, mannerisms etc.) just simply does not exist.  As has been admitted by even the most experienced among us, if someone "appears" male, (be it voice, body-build, mannerisms, whatever), they will automatically be "gendered" male and treated accordingly.

In some "enlightened" situations, (college campuses for example). or where there are societally imposed sanctions for not responding "appropriately" to the "presented" gender, those who do not "pass" or "present" convincingly might be treated, addressed and/or related to in a manner consistent with the gender they are presenting as, but....in truth, just how authentic is that?

What is being addressed here, IMO is just how compulsive these GD feelings can be that even knowing how slim the chances for a successful transition might be, people are willing to accept that "half a loaf" rather than no "loaf" at all. 

Unfortunately. in my mind at least, there are many who might expect that this imposed/forced acceptance by others will be sufficient to sustain them only to find that in the end they will have to find other ways to fill that need for human warmth and intimacy.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 03, 2015, 12:07:51 AM
Tamara,

You raise an interesting paradox, albiet your wording feels needlessly cruel:
1. Trans women are women.
2. Gender (as opposed to sex) does not exist outside the context of perception-that is, if someone genders you female because they want to be politically correct.
3. Therefore, trans women are not of the socially dictated female gender unless they are perceived as women, and not of the actually dictated female sex unless they have had surgery, hrt, etc. 
4. However, all trans women are women...

There's no good way to mediate this.  I cannot figure out a way to both validate my own dysphoria and the identities of people who choose not to physically OR socially transition.  Take my friend Ruby, for example.  As of now, she does not pass, does not present in a feminine manner, and is not perceived as female.  She has not yet begun her physical transition.  And yet, she still sees herself as female, and is referred to as such.  So, is Ruby female?  Her sex is not female, and she is not, within the context of the social construct of gender, female.  That's how she sees herself, which is fine.  But gender is not JUST how one sees themselvs; otherwise, people would not transition, unless transitioning is solely for validation which seems unlikely to me.  So, what is Ruby?  Her sex is not female and her gender is not female, and yet she is treated as such.  If gender (Not sex, don't tell me I'm discounting dysphoria!) is a construct of perception, than how can she be female?  An identity is just one's perception of them self, and if that identity differs from the perception of everyone else around the individual, they must be wrong. 

Any thoughts here?  This is an avenue of questioning that scares me a bit, and I hope it doesn't seem like I'm trying to invalidate anyone.  I'm just trying to figure out a way to make sense of this question. 

Also, Tamara, once again-no need to be so harsh.

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about or how the above assertions relate in anyway to my observation that the world in which we all live/exist etc. is far from the panacea wished for by those who do not "pass".

"Harsh"?  I am not harsh. Life is harsh.  Reality can be harsh.  I am a happy, fuzzy kitty.

 

Lets not start an argument please.

Thank You

Cindy

Not trying to start an arguement at all!  Just pointing out that talking about trans women who don't have the luck required to pass in this way is really, really nasty and hurtful.

OK Honey, I understand.

Lets move on.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 02, 2015, 10:43:44 PM
(1) Cis-people don't usually take lessons or consciously study their body language.  So far as I'm aware, courses of actual study are unique to trans* people.

Can I respectfully disagree?

Cis people do take lessons that come in the form of their childhoods where they emulate the gendered features of their family, mentors, and peers. Gender expression differs widely among cultures. We're not born knowing gendered behavior. We learn it through our childhood.

What I've had to do, as a transwoman transitioning middle age is to take a "crash" course to learn all the behaviors that cis woman had the luxury of an entire childhood to learn.

Yes, I'd much rather learn it the way they did, over a period of 15 or 20 years, but by then I'd be in my mid 70s.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 02, 2015, 10:43:44 PM
True.  But there are more reasons than just that for viewing a cispersons learning differently.  Just off the top of my head:
(1) Cis-people don't usually take lessons or consciously study their body language.  So far as I'm aware, courses of actual study are unique to trans* people.
(2) Cis-people's body language typically is not motivated by fear that their language will be cause them to be seen as a different gender if they fail to conform to a specific image.
(3) Some of a cis-person's body language is related to physical features.  An easy example is the way women brush back their hair.  Men don't typically do that because they usually have shorter hair.  Or one that cannot be easily changed with a haircut is differences in gait when walking.  I'm told that it can be uncomfortable for most men to cross their legs as women often do because "equipment" would get squished.  And so on.
(4) It really is not known how much body language is learned by a cis person versus how much is hard wired.  As far as I know, the resolution of nature versus nurture here is unknown.   
(5) Cis-people do not seem to feel the same pressure to conform to an arbitrary image that many trans* people do.  If you went up to the butchest woman in the world and told her she was moving wrong for a woman, I doubt she'd pay much attention to you.  Say that to a transwoman, especially at a certain point in her journey, and she may be mortified.  As a result, it seems like cispeople are much more free to do what comes naturally to them. 

Like Suzi said, I think cis folks do this consciously more than it seems. I certainly recall being sensitive about how I sat or walked as adolescence approached because I didn't want to be sitting like a girl (i.e., with my legs crossed the wrong way) or wiggling too much while walking, etc. At that point in my life, the trans factor hadn't reared its head, so I don't think I'm out of the ordinary in that way. For girls, I think there's even more of this---learning makeup, being taught to sit in such and such a way with a skirt, etc. I think very little of that is intrinsic to anyone. It has a massive cultural component, meaning it's learned and important for social reasons.

For me, I would say my interest in relearning body language, etc, is not primarily driven by fear of being clocked. It's because I would positively like to be accepted as a typical female, both by others and by myself. I don't think this is so different from the cis girl experience. An important part of ones identity (for some of us) is how we believe we're perceived by others.

Re: physical features, well, I had long hair for most of my life.... and I also never had much trouble crossing my legs. I think the rumors of junk interference are overstated... there may be some truth to this, but I think there's much more social than physiological drive behind most changes.

As for point 5, try going up to an adolescent girl and telling her that. (Note: don't really try this.) I think the response will be far different from your example---that time of transition has a lot in common with a transgender transition, and pubescent kids are famously touchy about their physical changes and behavior. I suspect if you went to a transgender person well after transition you'd get a fairer comparison here.

Anyway, not trying to argue so much as think about things. My feeling is that trans worries are not so different from cis adolescent worries. I don't disagree that there are some fears and worries that are either amplified or present only in the trans case, but I still think the biggest apparent difference stems from it being perceived as normal or natural for teenagers to bumble about and learn how to play their gender roles. By the later ages when many of us transition, that's "supposed" to be behind us, so it seems out of the ordinary.

Well,
I know the answer to this question.. I have not read any responses but here it is.. being Trans is not a choice.. having a chick brain is just that.. you are who you are.
Passing is wonderful and I do but...... I am not ashamed to be Trans.  It took me a while to get to this place but if someone has a problem with it its their problem not mine.. I deserve to be me as much as a young person deserves to be cured of cancer or any other illness.  We deserve respect.  The trans survivors.. ones who go on the transition pass or not are amazing.. When you get to a place where you are real and yourself around others.. its amazing how much good people.. ones with hearts become your friend.
We are all human..and deserve happiness.
I am going to post an experience I had yesterday that shows that I am not ashamed to be trans when I outed myself
Dodie

Quote from: stephaniec on February 02, 2015, 10:49:55 PM
I was just saying that if society was based on the character of one's soul rather than ones physical appearance , such as voice , mannerisms etc, would it really matter if you  " passed" , or maybe what I'm trying to say if society truly realized the meaning of what Dr. Martin Luther King was saying we could obliterate the craziness  of the value placed on each other because of the way they look.

There seems to be a perception among some of us that trying to 'learn' how to act feminine is being untrue to oneself if it does not come naturally right away. I would have to disagree with that for several reasons. First, when one has been suppressing her true self for years in order to conform to societal expectations or to hide a transgender identity, such suppression often comes naturally and needs to be unlearned. For some, that can be misinterpreted as a desperate attempt to 'learn' femininity. Secondly, hormones affect not only appearance but behavior as well. Long-term exposure to testosterone might make the brain "confused" when the T is suddenly replaced with estrogen, and therefore the innate components of femininity might not come as naturally as they would for a cis girl. And like others have said, cis females spend plenty of time trying to present female as well, but it is less often noticed in them because they receive much less scrutiny. For me, trying to learn the mannerisms that help with passing is not about learning to be a different person. It is about becoming the person I have always known myself to be at heart. While being gendered 'male' by others is hurtful, it is five times worse to see masculine features in myself, knowing they are a by-product of an incorrect upbringing (both social and hormonal) and not representative of who I really am.

What all this means is that I would try just as hard to pass better even if it made no difference to anyone else or their perception of me. Such efforts are about being true to myself. If they lead to greater acceptance down the line, that would be an added bonus that I would certainly appreciate.

Quote from: suzifrommd on February 03, 2015, 06:15:39 AM
Can I respectfully disagree?

Cis people do take lessons that come in the form of their childhoods where they emulate the gendered features of their family, mentors, and peers. Gender expression differs widely among cultures. We're not born knowing gendered behavior. We learn it through our childhood.

What I've had to do, as a transwoman transitioning middle age is to take a "crash" course to learn all the behaviors that cis woman had the luxury of an entire childhood to learn.

Yes, I'd much rather learn it the way they did, over a period of 15 or 20 years, but by then I'd be in my mid 70s.

Of course you can disagree.

But here are some websites that are all about teaching transgender people how to use body "correct" language.  I'll stick with just mtf spectrum since that's who is mostly in this conversation:
http://library.transgenderzone.com/?page_id=605
http://feminizationsecrets.com/part1/

http://steppingoutsecrets.com

All that from the first page of a Google search.  I did a similar Google search for to look for something to teach cispeople how to act like their gender.  I found none.  The closest I came was this website on how certain body language functions in the workplace:
http://www.amanet.org/training/articles/10-Powerful-Body-Language-Tips.aspx

Are you aware of any websites that train ciswomen on how to move like a woman?  If not, then that's my point.  Cispeople learn by doing.  They don't learn from taking a class.  And partly because of that, they are much more free to just be natural because they never had a teacher tell them how they must do it.  So they are free to break those rules.

Quote from: jeni on February 03, 2015, 09:35:47 AM
Like Suzi said, I think cis folks do this consciously more than it seems. I certainly recall being sensitive about how I sat or walked as adolescence approached because I didn't want to be sitting like a girl (i.e., with my legs crossed the wrong way) or wiggling too much while walking, etc. At that point in my life, the trans factor hadn't reared its head, so I don't think I'm out of the ordinary in that way.

You're not a cisperson.  One might suspect that your experience was different because you were trans*, even if you had not figured it out. 

Quote from: jeni on February 03, 2015, 09:35:47 AMAs for point 5, try going up to an adolescent girl and telling her that. (Note: don't really try this.) I think the response will be far different from your example---that time of transition has a lot in common with a transgender transition, and pubescent kids are famously touchy about their physical changes and behavior. I suspect if you went to a transgender person well after transition you'd get a fairer comparison here.

Depends on the adolescent girl.  Some adolescents are very butch too.  And if you told them they had the wrong body language for a woman, they'd probably just see it as affirming their butchness.

Anyhoo, I think I've made my point on this topic and nothing is really added by having me keep responding to the same thing over and over.  So unless something else interesting comes up, I'm going to stop expounding on the differences between how cispeople learn behavior and how trans* people do and the consequences produced by the different methods of learning.

Quote from: Steph34 on February 03, 2015, 10:06:14 AM
There seems to be a perception among some of us that trying to 'learn' how to act feminine is being untrue to oneself if it does not come naturally right away. I would have to disagree with that for several reasons. First, when one has been suppressing her true self for years in order to conform to societal expectations or to hide a transgender identity, such suppression often comes naturally and needs to be unlearned. For some, that can be misinterpreted as a desperate attempt to 'learn' femininity. Secondly, hormones affect not only appearance but behavior as well. Long-term exposure to testosterone might make the brain "confused" when the T is suddenly replaced with estrogen, and therefore the innate components of femininity might not come as naturally as they would for a cis girl. And like others have said, cis females spend plenty of time trying to present female as well, but it is less often noticed in them because they receive much less scrutiny. For me, trying to learn the mannerisms that help with passing is not about learning to be a different person. It is about becoming the person I have always known myself to be at heart. While being gendered 'male' by others is hurtful, it is five times worse to see masculine features in myself, knowing they are a by-product of an incorrect upbringing (both social and hormonal) and not representative of who I really am.

What all this means is that I would try just as hard to pass better even if it made no difference to anyone else or their perception of me. Such efforts are about being true to myself. If they lead to greater acceptance down the line, that would be an added bonus that I would certainly appreciate.

I think your misinterpreting what I'm trying to say. all I'm saying is that everyone has the right to be themselves whether or not the internal or external pressure is there to conform to the standards of societies view of what it is to be a certain gender. we can't deny someone the right to express their true self because they don't fit the concept of how to look that is a construction of society.Everyone has the right to be healed whether or not they """"" pass"""""

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 03, 2015, 10:24:15 AM
Are you aware of any websites that train ciswomen on how to move like a woman?  If not, then that's my point.  Cispeople learn by doing.

No. Cis people do NOT learn by doing. They learn while they are growing up by watching the women and girls around them.

They have decades to get it right.

We, on the other hands, have transitions that we want to last only a year or two. We don't have decades.

So we need websites.

Quote from: stephaniec on February 03, 2015, 10:52:50 AM
I think your misinterpreting what I'm trying to say. all I'm saying is that everyone has the right to be themselves whether or not the internal or external pressure is there to conform to the standards of societies view of what it is to be a certain gender. we can't deny someone the right to express their true self because they don't fit the concept of how to look that is a construction of society.Everyone has the right to be healed whether or not they """"" pass"""""

I love that concept, but unfortunately, external pressure to be 'more feminine' is usually present, and I would imagine that internal pressure is usually pretty intense if someone accepts the time and monetary cost, and personal risks, that come with transitioning. At times, it can be crippling. One reason for my failure to transition sooner, and also the main reason for my failure to communicate with other transgender people until just a few months ago, was my fear that I would be perceived as 'not feminine enough' to be *truly* female or transgender. I was wrong to let that fear hold me back. With regard to the delayed transition, that became a self-fulfilling prophecy, and dysphoria over my masculine characteristics still keeps me at home a lot. It is a very unpleasant situation. So yes, I agree that we should embrace our true selves and be the best people we can be, but I also feel that attempts to 'pass' better - even if not completely - are a great tool for accomplishing that. I can only speak for myself, but I cannot ever be "healed" if I can't pass. If I see a male in the mirror and strangers address me as "man" or "sir," there can be no healing for me. I would still transition anyway to be true to myself and to be more feminine than otherwise possible, but I would not be healed.

Hmmm,
Well being Fem for me after I admitted again to myself who I really am on the inside was as easy as breathing.
I still love the things I did before like football.
For me the way I walk needs to improve and I need to remember to hold my head upright and shoulders back.
My wife said she learned to do that with a book on her head and has me practicing.
As for other things I am good and came very naturally
I am not overly fem in my behavior but there are a lot of Cis women who are tom boys.. nothing wrong with just being who we are..
Dodie

ThePhoenix, there are coaches for cis people.. They are called deportment coaches, exist for men and women and have done so for at least a century..

Hot potato, pass it on ...

Just a thought on the idea that CIS are not trained in some way to behave (mannerisms, speech even attitude) like their birth gender.

My opinion hell no they are taught in many ways from many sources which is mostly learned at a young age.

CIS learn from parents teachers and even their peers as how to act like they gender they are designated as yet transgender have been taught the opposite.
Example: No timmy you should be playing with trucks not dolls. Jane you should cross your legs when you sit.
As for peer pressure "Look at timmy he is such a sissy lets leave him off the team or bully him etc."

I could also add books/tv well media in general.
Tv commercials portraying models hello what a woman is supposed to be although hardly attainable by even most CIS women.

Ok here is one that sure hits the nail on the head and sure heard this a load of times but.
Girls are made of sugar and spice and boys made of puppy dogs tails.

The difference is as a child we learn things a lot by seeing what others do and learn a lot faster yet with transgender its the total opposite we learn slower yet have less time to do so and as someone mentioned before we should have learned this already when we were a kid but ...

Yet to some degree I also agree that transgender may over emphasize say mannerisms until they are comfortable then perhaps they become more natural to them wherever those mannerism fit. Such as perhaps being more polite to others let them go first kind of thing then as confidence grows perhaps be more aggressive and head to beginning of a line.

What it truly boils down to as say a mtf is to learn more feminine mannerisms to 1 be less likely to be outed 2 be more likely seen as the gender they identify with 3 hey its a learning curve I am sure we all as a kid put something stupid in our mouths I realize that Is a little different but is it really we are trying to relearn and unlearn at the same time and quickly so perhaps we may go a little far then find a comfy zone as to what we perceive ourselves as and what others are more likely to perceive us as in an authentic manner at long last.

Trying to look at both sides really and both sides do have merit admit biased more one way then the other but just my thoughts not disrespect intended.

I think I can say with fair certainty that cis people learn the same way we do, via observation.  I never had to adjust my mannerisms when I finally started my transition.  Even presenting as male, I was sometimes gendered female on my mannerisms alone; it was always that way for me. 

And yes, we do overcompensate, but it actually makes a fair amount of sense when you consider the years of repression we have to deal with.  Personally, the longer I've been full time, the less ultrafemine I am.  It used to be I wouldn't leave my apartment without makeup on.  Now, for practical (time) reasons, I do it all the time.  What I'm getting at is that these things are all very subjective and change over time.  Those of you that need to learn do so more quickly than cis women, but there's nothing "biological" about gesturing or anything...we just pick this stuff up.

Yes and you're not forced to pick it up. It's mostly your identity that will determine how you behave... You might want to overcompensate, or you might just like the overfeminine thing. Being a woman mean very different things depending on woman. There's not just one way of being a woman. It changes depending on your environment. None of the woman I interact with have specific gesture or talking habits that could differ them from male.

Trying to be overfeminine will just draw attention on you, without actually making you more feminine. Just like the way you dress and your voice, I believe this things tends to become more and more "normal" with practice, and less exagerated.