I've been obsessing more and more about wether or not I'm passing; getting to a point where this is a private matter between myself and my close friends is what I'd ideally like.  There are all of these instances where someone finds out (usually from me, honestly, because I assume everyone knows already) and seem so surprised; then, there are days where people stare at me and I just want to curl up in a ball and die.  How do you know, for sure, if you are passing?  Having that sense of security is very important to me, but I just can't see a way to know for certain.  Posting pictures here is never any good; you all are amazing, but frankly I've seen more than a small number of blatant lies on the "do I pass" thread.  I can't know for certain when I'm out in public, because I don't trust myself-I'm too sure of myself some of the time, and not sure enough others.  I just don't want people laughing at me behind my back; I know a few people who tell me how they pass so well, but in actuality are being read CONSTANTLY, and are just oblivious. 

How can I tell?  Do you need to out yourself to someone before you know for sure?

I just want to add passing is like chasing a unicorn.

Its something pleasing to see but just never get to see.

Take your effort and just enjoy life as it is and comes.

Transition is a package. Mine is wrapped with newspaper.

Yours?

Hugs.

What do anonymous people gender you as you're just going about your life? And how do they treat you?

Once you start really getting out there and just living your life and actually interacting with the world, it should become apparent very quickly whether you pass or not. Hang out with female friends, go shopping, go to restaurants, and see if you hear people calling you "ladies." See if cashiers and bank tellers and the like call you "miss/ma'am." Listen for diminutive nicknames like "honey," "sweetheart," etc. And listen for gender-specific pronouns in conversations... if people call you "she" or "he." (Another thing that happens sometimes is that if someone isn't sure what your gender is, or if people's perceptions seem to be mixed, you often can hear people deliberately avoiding pronouns, using gender-non-specific language. It's uncommon, but it happens too.)

Also, pay attention to how people greet you. When I was first considering going full-time, and tended to be getting gendered both male and female depending on the perception of the person, just the speaking tone and body language of other people was a good indicator of whether they were gendering me male or female. When people are perceiving you as male, there's a sort of "repsect" that you'll get, kind of a "yes, you are a dominant male, I'm respecting your authority and your personal space and not getting too emotionally-connected with you" sort of attitude. Where women are greeted much more openly, with more pitch variation and inflection in the voice. And you'll be able to see guys doing this sort of "talking down to you" attitude, and women doing this sort of "openly greeting you like a friend" attitude. You can look for that.

This is all about just judging how other people are perceiving you, gauging their reactions.

Stares are honestly a bad way to do it. Because we tend to associate stares with "OMG that is a man in a dress, look at the freak," when in reality it could mean that people find you attractive, or are studying a unique body feature, or a unique appearance, or find your hairstyle interesting, or find your clothes interesting, or at worst are trying to figure out whether you're male or female because they aren't sure upon first glance. Tall cis girls get stared at all the time, as do very short people, as do people with a unique sense of style, as do beautiful people, as do ugly people, as do people with any sort of disability or any sort of feature that looks unique. People are curious. It doesn't mean they're misgendering you or judging you.

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Stares are honestly a bad way to do it. Because we tend to associate stares with "OMG that is a man in a dress, look at the freak," when in reality it could mean that people find you attractive, or are studying a unique body feature, or a unique appearance, or at worst trying to figure out whether you're male or female because they aren't sure upon first glance. Tall cis girls get stared at all the time, as do very short people, as do people with any sort of disability or any sort of feature that looks unique. People are curious. It doesn't mean they're misgendering you or judging you.
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I went for dinner the other week to a new restaurant. I put on a new dress and looked at myself in the mirror 'Goddess I'm showing a lot of leg. So of course I put on the highest heels I have'

We went to dinner and the man I was with was nicely dressed and I felt awesome. As we walked to our table I was aware of the stares. I didn't even think whether I was 'passing', I knew the women were jealous and the men were 'lustful'.

I felt wonderful. Don't worry about stares, revel in them

If people stare at me (which doesn't happen that often) I presume it's because I'm tall and they're thinking "gee, that woman is tall" - not "that tall man is pretending to be a woman". 

I've said it many, many, many times - passing is not just about how you look anyway. It's about presentation (how you dress, your hair, etc) and confidence. For some reason people can really sense when someone is nervous, it really draws their attention.

When people STOP staring at you...

The sooner one stops investing in how well they pass (in every sense of the word, not just how we use it here), the happier they will be.

I think the answer is you never really know for sure... and even if you do pass people might work it out one way or another. As the general populace come to realise that trans people are not the broad stereotypes they believed us to be then they come to know what the traits are that give us away. If someone already knows a few trans people they are going to work it out pretty quickly in most cases.

I think that Carrie listed out some pretty good ways that we can glean from the behavior of others whether or not we are passing - but we can never know for sure short of walking up and asking the person directly.

I find that attitude goes a long way toward passing. I am full time and I know that I have some undeniably male markers in my face that work to out me, but I also have a "screw them if they have a problem with me" attitude - and I find that people seem to ignore me now for the most part which is fine with me. I am living my life for me and I really don't care what others think or if they judge me - that's their problem, not mine. I lived for way too long caring what others thought about me - to the detriment of me.

As other people have said - they may be staring at you admiring something about your appearance - why assume they are staring for the worst reasons? Hold your head up high girl - you look very attractive - own it! 

I find when I make new friends, after a while they're willing to tell me honestly whether they knew by looking at me that I was trans. Also look over the "you know you really pass when..." threads. If you pass, you'll find those sorts of things happen to you. If you find people assuming you're a straight woman, that normally means you pass.

Hope this helps.

Only one guy has ever come onto me, and that was six months ago.  I can't tell if it's because I'm ugly or I look like a man...

So if random strangers gender you correctly, use the right pronouns, etc... does that mean that you pass? No, that just means they are using the correct words that fit your apperance and your presentation. Do they see you as a cisgender female, as this is what "pass" (I hate this word) would mean? Maybe yes, maybe no. I'm shure many transsexual women will be clocked by many people, but because most people are nice, they will still use the correct pronouns and everything, and wouldn't let you know anything about being clocked. Those who are not such a nice people will either stare at you, like you are an alien or something, or let you verbally know that they know that you were a man before, either by using the other pronouns, or intentionally calling you sir, or some worse words. So how do you know when you really really "pass" ? You just know. When you basically forget that you are trans, and noone will in any way remind you of your transsexual reality. And when you can go out in the store, or bank, or wherever without any make-up, with dishwashing ponytail hairstyle, and clothes that you wear when you feel sick and just wanna lay around and watch tv... and noone will stare at you, other than old creepy men that will stare at anything female..
I would say forget about the whole passing thing... You are a woman! You don't just try to "pass" or pretend as one. So go out in the world without even thinking about it. Based on your avatar photo, you are young and you even have nice facial features. Unless there is something seriously masculine about your body that would be clocking you, I think you shouldn't have any problems. And I'm not just being nice like most people in the "Do I pass" thread, I'm actually honest. If you still feel like your appearance doesn't match average cisgender, there are few craniofacial FFS surgeons who are able to help you with that. 

The less you worry about passing the more you will pass.

I live in a rural area, and the closest town has less than 15k people.  I am in the middle of america --"The Heartland".  I find that when I am out in my area people stare a LOT.  Mainly the old male farmers.  I think they just have not been exposed to trans at all in RL and I would venture to guess that their only perception of trans is a skewed one from television/media/porn, etc.

If I go 40 miles south to a city of 115k, virtually no one stares, and nearly everyone genders me as I present: a woman.

If I were to go off of the reception from my town I would be unnecessarily putting myself in non-pass category.  But, if I go off of the reception in the city where I work, then I pass gloriously based on those metrics.  However, I think it has been said in this thread a few times:  I do not care what any of them think, so I hold my head high, ignore rude people (my wife will verbally attack them for me, anyway ), and only pay attention to the people that treat me with respect.  Therefore, I pass quite well.

I am a brutally honest person thought I have to tone it down here sometimes so I will, this once, apply my normal brutal honesty and tell you this: based on your pictures you pass. You pass 100%. If we met on the street, unless you had some very masculine trait or voice, I would have zero reason to think you're anything but a ciswoman.

I bull you no ->-bleeped-<-e.

I used to be a firm believer that you can never know for sure, but my female alter has convinced me otherwise in the 6+ years since she became self aware.

She and I live separate lives. No one in either of our worlds knows us both and none of her friends knows our System's body is biologically male. It is impossible for me to conceive that her cisgender girlfriends' conservative "southern gentlemen" husbands would give her a hug and kiss on the cheek if they did.

Infants and small children are painfully honest. They learn at a very early age how how to tell the Mama from the Not the Mama. They simply do not come up to me the way they do my female alter- let alone the fact that their Moms don't bat an eye when they do. I wouldn't even think of touching a child in public for fear of  a mother lion's rage at the threat to her cubs.

Wearing her bikini at the beach. No way I would get a bye if I did that.

Overall the statistics are overwhelming. In 5000+ hours out and about living her life as a woman, there were only two times (both within the first 6 months) that my female alter was ever misgendered. I have put her under every possible situation to fail and she comes through time and time again. There is  no question in my mind; people see her as a cisgender woman.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 02, 2015, 09:48:46 PM
There are all of these instances where someone finds out (usually from me, honestly, because I assume everyone knows already) and seem so surprised;

I think that is your answer right there.  If you tell people and they are surprised, then you pass.  I agree with the other that stares don't necessarily mean you are not passing.  It could be because you are tall, or attractive, or something else.

I mean people call me ma'am and miss without me telling then I am a woman, and no one ever stops me from using the proper restroom I am pretty sure I pass. There doesn't need to be more thought out into it than that.

I've been pretty active within the trans "community" since 1982, been involved in lots of support groups, been politically active at times, and personally known many, many trans women over the decades.  And I've seen the way some people treat trans women, and it can be ugly.

It is a sad state of affairs that teenage boys and young men tend to be openly hostile when they recognize a woman as transsexual.  Especially if you encounter teenagers or young men in groups.  Their hostility can be felt; sometimes they'll say nasty things under their breath, make cruel observations to each other loud enough for everyone around them to hear. 

For those who stand out as openly trans, every now and then they will encounter shop clerks, waiters, young men, etc. who make a show of expressing disgust or disapproval.  If that just never happens, odds are pretty good that you're blending in as a woman among women pretty well.

For a few years there was an openly transsexual woman in the pool league that I play in.  There were a few players who openly refused to play with her because she was a transsexual.  She was actively excluded from most all-female tournaments because several women threatened to boycott the events if she was allowed to play.  And this is in the very liberal City of Portland.

If these sort of things just never happen to you, then you probably blend in pretty well as a woman among women.

There are just some people who can't help themselves from imposing their bigotry on others, and openly transsexual women are bound to run into such people from time to time.  If it just never happens to you, then you most likely blend in pretty well as a woman among women.

Just sayin'.

I mean I don't really care about misgendering anymore. I brush it off.

I would like to pass though. I think I do to some degree when dressed properly.

Violence? I carry and I have training and I avoid trouble spots when I can. But it is a very real concern especially as a trans woman of color.

But when presenting F I don't get as much as a second look. Even up where I live which is kind of a pretty old fashioned not really progressive area even though we are just barely in the NYC metro area.