Quote from: jeni on February 02, 2015, 09:46:40 PM
I've been wrestling with these sorts of issues myself lately. Something that seems significant to me is that cis folks spend far more time learning these mannerisms than any trans person ever will, but that time isn't tallied up and thought about because it's lumped in with the experiences of growing up.

I find that I think I feel differently about changes or efforts that are sort of "making up" for missed experiences than I do about those that are more like arbitrary changes to oneself. For example, I have no hesitation about HRT and little about GRS (at this point anyway, when it's on the distant horizon), but BA or FFS provoke far more complicated feelings. Somehow, for me, those brush up against being changes for vanity's sake in a way that other procedures don't. (I don't mean to be offensive or judgmental about others here, btw, I am speaking solely about myself.)

In my experience, getting FFS was more about saying goodbye to the self I hated in the mirror, and allowing my friends and family to see a clear difference apart from clothing and affectations.  Since I now look like a sister of my old self, the people who know about me have a much easier time accepting the transition and seeing me as female.  Knowing that I was dedicated enough to happily spend the money for and time recovering from FFS, separates me from someone lost who might be misguided for transitioning in their minds.  SRS looms in the distant future, but mostly because I'm not particularly interested in holding onto something I consider vestigial.

Voice surgery intrigues and terrifies me.  I'm not sure I'd be willing to gamble with my ability to speak without exhausting all the voice training I can find.  I already hate when people won't listen to me, it'd be much worse if I couldn't speak in the first place. 

BAs are complicated.  The feminist in me refuses to seriously consider them necessary, however I'd look D-lightful ... ugh I can't finish this sentence.

To each his or her own.  I am all for seizing your own identity and not being afraid to be yourself.  I also believe FFS has and will continue to improve my quality of life. 

Caveat: there are a lot of risks involved with FFS or any invasive surgery, and the recovery is really hard.  Before you elect for any surgery, make sure to research your doctor and don't be afraid to pay premium since you only have one face/body.  It's worth it to get exactly what you want IMO.  There are a lot of other aspects to transitioning apart from surgery as well.  And it seems easy to get caught up in creating wish lists for surgeries we want and attempting to design perfection in a new body for us.


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Quote from: suzifrommd on February 03, 2015, 11:01:56 AM
No. Cis people do NOT learn by doing. They learn while they are growing up by watching the women and girls around them.

They have decades to get it right.

We, on the other hands, have transitions that we want to last only a year or two. We don't have decades.

So we need websites.

Umm, y'all have moms right?  The relationship you have with her and the rest of your family is very different if you are assigned female at birth.

Secondly, there are debutantes balls, cotillions, quinceañeras, bat mitsvahs, etc..  Young ladies that experience these are usually coached on how to perform rituals and how to appear ladylike.  A lot of time and effort is spent preserving these rituals of feminine acculturation.

Thirdly, there are manners classes.  They teach boys how to act like proper gentlemen and girls how to act like proper ladies.  Instruction includes dining etiquette, proper conversational topics, how to be appropriately rude to the disadvantaged while maintaining a modicum of modesty, etc.

Fourthly, school stratifies gendered activities.  Without considering all-boys and all-girls schools, co-Ed schools still treat boys and girls differently.  Children learn arguably more about how to act from their peers, as well.  See peer pressure.

I could go on, but I'd prefer to digress...

Anthropology teaches that we learn by watching, trading and communicating with other people.  If you consider boys and girls as distinct anthropological groups, it makes a lot of sense that transpeople would have to learn a new dialect in order to fit in and relate with the group they are seeking to integrate with.  Watching another culture from afar is not the same as experiencing it.  If you truly want to fit in with people you associate yourself with, then there are rules of acclimatization for established social structures and hierarchies.  Seeking membership at a particular level of inclusion will require matching the criterion associated with it and fitting in.

Communication: whether with your body, intonation, or choice of words.  In order to be able to communicate effectively you have to learn the language.

Trade: helping people, listening to them, interpreting how best to be supportive, and exchanging things of value with the other person.  This can only be done if you can learn how, or already know.

If a girlfriend is curious about the nail polish color you are wearing, remembering its name and brand is helpful unless she was fishing for a compliment on her nails.  Being able to talk about things that interest women is important if you want female friends.  Being butch and only having guy friends is ok, but do you really want to be "that" girl. 

All joking aside, it takes a lot of experience to understand how to communicate with people, and trade with and for things they and you want.  So... learning how to adopt the affectations of another group of people to fit in isn't something reserved for transpeople.  It's just annoying.


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having to pass is a personal thing and different for every single person. it isnt chancing transition its changing the physical body to the gender you feel. every bodies situation is different as to the situation you are trying to pass too. for some like me its not about passing its about correcting a body thats wrong,with that sorted i pass. maybe not what some people expect or want to see but to me i will pass.if you go into this with rose tinted specticals then you are going to have problems. for a lot its a rock and hard place situation. like me you have to transition but after it can end up a worse situation than before transition. as has been said so many times the feeling before is if i dont transition i may as well die yet transitioning gets you into a similar situation of i dont pass im miserable. you have to look hard in the mirror and  ask if you can adjust to not passing as you may think once you have transitioned. try to see how it will be and grab a bit of reality not dreams. some of us are tough enough to accept how we look and ignore the fitting in or not. its an easy answer to the question why do some risk transition without passing  they have to the head says so.  perhaps the question should be why do so many not think hard about how they will cope after when its not the fairy tail land they dreamed it was. im not saying dont transition but be realistic about what can happen.
i thought i could ignore the fact i had body dysphoria and i ended up on suicide watch. i will transition but i know where on the gender wavey road i fit in. i read a post many years ago that said the best things to have were attitude and confidence and now i understand why. then i could never have said to a stranger im transgender but now even though im still male looking it doesnt bother me. i have got to a point where they think which way is he/she transgender and thats near a point where im happy. a lot chance transition hoping it will all be ok as its a condition that gives you little choice. i think of it as i am female and always have been so this is how i am. im not risking anything but my situation is different to most.

the feeling is so incredibly imbedded in ones soul. I've had it all my life, at one point I thought I had conquered it, I had put all my energy into work and I really became a dead person. I hit a bad crisis and it slam dunked me. It left me no choice.

i can relate to the burying head in work,i did the same and thought i had blanked out the feelings. didnt work they are etched into the soul. thought i had found a compromise but that ended up nearly killing me. after all that taking a chance to transition was an easy choice. maybe its slightly easier for me i have felt isolation and got through it. now its a road to discovery and its fun.

Re: Why do you think so many are willing to chance transition without "passing"?

I think it boils down to one of two simple answers.  Either the individual *must* transition in order to just simply stay alive.  Or...they think that "living as a woman" will be easier/more fun/ or "who they really are, deep down inside".

*mod edit, ToS 10

Quote from: Obfuskatie on February 05, 2015, 09:45:04 AM
In my experience, getting FFS was more about saying goodbye to the self I hated in the mirror, and allowing my friends and family to see a clear difference apart from clothing and affectations.  Since I now look like a sister of my old self, the people who know about me have a much easier time accepting the transition and seeing me as female.  Knowing that I was dedicated enough to happily spend the money for and time recovering from FFS, separates me from someone lost who might be misguided for transitioning in their minds.  SRS looms in the distant future, but mostly because I'm not particularly interested in holding onto something I consider vestigial.

Thanks for your perpsective on this, it's interesting and helpful to hear. If I were to do it, I'd want a result like you describe, as it sounds like you are still "you," just feminized. That is certainly appealing.

I suspect that if I get through the HRT effects and beard electrolysis and still feel like my appearance is too masculine, I'll give FFS serious consideration. I think I have a fair shot at passing well enough without it, and I think that as long as I'm passing I'll be content.

I totally agree with you about voice surgery. I don't think it will be for me. Similarly for BA assuming I get anything reasonable in that department.

I just talked about my views of passing in another thread, but basically I believe the idea is way overrated. I am going to be authentic to what I feel inside, and I want that to be reflected in how I appear. I am not going to adjust my fashion choices to become invisible. My aunt always dressed eccentrically, because that is who she was, and she got noticed wherever she went. I learned a lot from that. I am going to be completely me, and if that gets me more clocked, I don't really care. Frankly, I realize that I am not only a woman, but I am also a trans woman, and I am increasingly proud of that identity.   

I think Katie's views and experiences expressed in the last 2 posts are fairly close IMO to desired outcomes...

Passing is a state of mind, no doubt, but a defined visual and gender identity is key for some of us who would like to "pass" as we would like to see ourselves. It is a matter of choice definitely and of course whether you can wait or finance your transition to how you want to be seen, by yourself or others.

There are no rights or wrongs in whether you transition to FT without caring for "passing" or not... personally I would like certain visual impression's aligned to my view of how I want to look and sound... I always have been a bit of a sensitive person when people whisper behind my back...
I am fortunate that I am under a Dr who did not demand fronting up as the real you or the charade view to start the feminisation via HRT (I needed it early as my age meant that it would take longer than under 30's etc... however as I am starting to be happy with myself the time is approaching where I have to be fully public...

The need to mimic and "learn" the basic skills of "being" female to me are key (I practice walking in flats and heels, I practice visual expression, but that's a little harder until I get my support group together where I can practice), there is so much to learn 

Agreeing again with Katie that certain things can be missed or put on the shelf for later as long as you are happy, voice surgery for me is a real potential, but will depend on voice training success, else I will need to scrape the money up...

I love fashion and being able to wear what I want and be able to carry it off (age aside  ) so face and neck surgery is high on the agenda at the moment trachea, forehead, age and sun damage to upper and lower lip and nose etc. are key, then voice... I am in the 140lbs / 64~65 Kg weight range so 34B boobs will work for me.

But I do admire those that say "to hell with everyone" I am doing what I want, think what you like, its me and I'm happy I feel for those that for whatever reason just do not have a option... I am lucky I have had to live with my Dysphoria for ever, I won't very soon now, but I do want to look the best I can when I come out to the world....

Of course I am me and I don't intend to offend or dismiss any others stories or views, they are all valid and up for consideration

For me I probably will not go fully public without "passing" >85% obviously if someone wants to critic or be picky there will always be something... 

Just love this forum... certainly helping me... Great thread Stephanie 

Love Katy   

Quote from: stephaniec on February 05, 2015, 02:06:45 PM
the feeling is so incredibly imbedded in ones soul. I've had it all my life, at one point I thought I had conquered it, I had put all my energy into work and I really became a dead person. I hit a bad crisis and it slam dunked me. It left me no choice.

Stephaniec,
I could not have said it better... I wish I were a dude but I am a chick.. being a dude was so much easier.. but now I have passed the no return point and I have never been happier. 
Dodie

Quote from: Dodie on February 06, 2015, 10:02:52 PM
Stephaniec,
I could not have said it better... I wish I were a dude but I am a chick.. being a dude was so much easier.. but now I have passed the no return point and I have never been happier. 
Dodie

you've done well