I just hate the idea of being treated differently because of it, and people seeing it as a defining characteristic. I don't want to be "that transgender guy", y'know.

But I suppose if these documents aren't easily accessible to the general public, it'd be alright? Or can anyone easily stumble across it?

Quote from: ScottyMac on February 09, 2015, 11:07:48 AM
I just hate the idea of being treated differently because of it, and people seeing it as a defining characteristic. I don't want to be "that transgender guy", y'know.

But I suppose if these documents aren't easily accessible to the general public, it'd be alright? Or can anyone easily stumble across it?

That's partly why I changed my last name so they don't find me or know my family that easily just by associating last name.
Change all your documents because if they want to find out more about you, they will find inconsistencies.
If you're starting to get well-known, stealth is impossible.

Here's an article for thought: http://jezebel.com/trans-woman-commits-suicide-amid-fear-of-outing-by-spor-1503902916

Feck...I don't even know.
I can't do anything big with my life because I'll be outed as trans. I wouldn't even be known for whatever I invented or whatever, I'll be known for being trans
So I have to live some average Joe life ...great. Even then I could be outed.

I just don't see the point. I have three options
1) Live as female
2) Live as male crunching numbers in some office with no dreams or big achievements because I'll get outed which will probably happen even if I don't do anything great due to all these documents saying I'm trans
3) Live as an out trans person

All of them seem boring mundane and miserable. I know I will probably have no great achievements anyway, hardly anyone does, just the fact that I can't even TRY because I'll be outed is bloody depressing.

I understand about not wanting to be known as a trans person all your life, but it is no reason to give up. Many trans people have done great things like Kristin Beck, Paula Schonauer and our own Cindy. It is only a problem if you let it become one. I have transitioned successfully and at the start did not want to be known as that trans girl either, but time has showed me it is nothing to be ashamed of at all. It is what makes us unique and individual. The simple fact is after transition is complete you will be the gender you are comfortable with in your own skin, but it also means no amount of surgery or hormones will make you cis. This is just something you will have to make peace with. It took me a while, but I have gotten to the point of relaxation and acceptance in myself so it can happen for you as well. 

Your life is what you make it!

I don't see why the site people tried to ban me ?? Too depressing I guess?

I know I just have to accept it. I just hope I once day will, I just can't live in this constant misery 24/7 anymore. I don't know what to do, the one thing I want so bad I can never ever bloody have.

Quote from: ScottyMac on February 09, 2015, 02:40:55 PM
I don't see why the site people tried to ban me ?? Too depressing I guess?

I know I just have to accept it. I just hope I once day will, I just can't live in this constant misery 24/7 anymore. I don't know what to do, the one thing I want so bad I can never ever bloody have.

Your attitude just comes off as very childish and shortsighted.

There are ways to be as stealth as possible, as others have said. So what if there is a paper trail out there? Trust me when I say no one is going to go digging for it without cause.

And you can absolutely have goals and achievements to look forward to. Unless you're doing something related to the trans community, why would anyone look at a passable male and say "wow I wonder if that guy is transgender"? They wouldn't. I pass. I went from being physically female and an assistant at the office I work at to being recognized as male and running the entire operation. I manage a multi-million dollar company and no one that I've met since coming out who doesn't know about my transition has ever said a word or asked about what kind of jimmies I was born with.

Sorry for the bluntness, but I think your worries are unfounded.

Hi!!

I understand the desire to go full stealth.  I thought I would go that route.  I was afraid.   Once I got started on my transition, it did get easier and the fear got less.  I still haven't decided how far I will go with stealth but I have about two years and seven months left before I have to decide.  But full stealth is possible.  Think about witness protection.  They also give up their families, their friends and all ties to the past. 

I will say the younger, the easier.  There are ways to confuse most of your document tracks.  You can't hide them but you confuse them.  However, each change beyond the basic stuff starts getting more time consuming and more expensive.  Obvious is to get a new social security number.  Takes time but it can be done. 

A person also has to learn to avoid and to lie.  An entire new background has to be created.  And that is problematic as it has to be confused as well.  You will be lying your entire adult life.  Your spouse will never know the true you.  I believe that is harder than the getting rid of the document trail. 

If a person truly passes, they generally are accepted - regardless of the paper trail. 

You are afraid.  That, I understand.  Yet there are many who deeply regret not transitioning because of fear.   That, I understand as well.
I think the fear is worse than the reality tough. 

I'm eight months full time.  I fully pass.  I am accepted as a woman.  Most people don's care what I was, just who I am...

Hugs,

Jen

I think you are making a quantum leap between being total and absolute stealth, and "An Out TransPerson". That is, of course, assuming my definition of "An Out TransPerson" as someone who is just a hair short of "Yeah, I'm trans. Get over it". There is a whole galaxy between those two extremes.

How about a thought game?

Let's suppose, you pull out your sonic screwdriver, and somehow R2D2 was able to hack into the Big Data Base in the Sky, and The Doctor went into the Tardis popped back a few years and made doubly sure that there is absolutely no paper trail whatsover. As far as anyone, besides your mom and perhaps a lover, is concerned, you are a male. (BTW - you get only only one shot at a lover, and/or go the reverse Black Widow route)

So, as far as all the world can document or prove, short of a physical exam, you are a male. But wait. There is always something not 100% absolute perfect cis male about your presentation. You're living somewhere, get some crap from the local h/s kids, and before you know it, a rumor starts. Then it spreads like wildfire from grade to grade, kid to adults. People all around begin to look at you a little different.

All based on a rumor.

Now what?

I'll go out on a limb and say that virtually everyone here understands the concerns you have to some degree. But, as others have said, once they (and myself) began transition it was the best thing we could have done for ourselves. Yes, I have a paper trail, but no one is going to dive into it. Plenty of us have been able to accomplish our goals. Look no further than some of our mods. Cindy has done some amazing things. Arch has pretty much the job I want. If they can do it, we can too.

You will always know, and that won't change. But others aren't going to know. Admitting defeat before you even start is not going to help. I suggest you do some soul searching and maybe talk to someone. No amount of transition will make you happy with yourself unless you address your fears as well.

Here are two examples I use. They are MTF but still relevant.

Laverne Cox - beautiful, sexy, radiant. Obviously visibly trans. Well celebrated and loved by many. There are a few haters but they don't faze her. The media tries to treat her badly sometimes but she dusts it off. Strong, proud woman.

Janet Mock - beautiful, sexy, radiant and passable as cis. In fact she was stealth before she came out. People try to demean her but she also brushes it off and fights back. She is well liked by many. Piers Morgan even tried to focus on her being trans in one of their interviews. Piers is disgusting anyway. Most people love her. And by being out she is helping us make strides.

Here's another example - Lynn Conway. Extremely passable, lived stealth for years, then came out when she realized she could do some good for the community. She had FFS which helped even more with her being stealth. Lord alone knows where I would be without Lynn and her writings. I would probably be dead. She gave me lots of hope. She is well celebrated but a few people give her crap about being trans.


Here's another example -

Michelle Obama - beautiful, sexy, radiant, elegant, cis. First lady. Mother with two kids you could clearly tell are hers and the President's. Some ignorant people think she is trans. People even make disgusting photoshops of her. Yet she is 100% cis. But she is accused of being trans.

So yeah, stealth is doable. Stealth is desirable. In the end though, you have to be prepared for some accusations that you are trans. Some people will see you. Some people will land upon a lucky guess. Some people will dig into your past. It's unavoidable. Nothing in life is 100%. And yes even some cis people will be clocked. Can't do anything about that.

Live your life and don't worry.

I know I'm probably overreacting, I'm probably going to be fine.
I just have to live my life and screw anyone who finds out and makes a big deal of it.
I just hope as I get older and become an adult I'll be able to handle it better.

Quote from: ScottyMac on February 10, 2015, 12:18:33 PM
I know I'm probably overreacting, I'm probably going to be fine.
I just have to live my life and screw anyone who finds out and makes a big deal of it.
I just hope as I get older and become an adult I'll be able to handle it better.

Bingo.

Don't let the haters win.

Also, it's 2015. If this was 1960 or 1980 it would be a different story. But this decade is ours.

Scotty, I wouldn't say your over reacting at all. I have moments where figure out my past and as much as I don't like that fact I embrace it instead. I try turning I into a positive. When did that the person who I dealt with agreed she probably would have to. Our reactions are perfectly normal and to some might seem like an over reaction but when the shoe is on the other foot they don't see it that way anymore. All over correcting her over the misgendering. The key is to become comfortable with who you and whatever is normal for you. Your transition is just a piece will help you do that. Hugs
Mariah


Sent from my Mariah's iPad using Tapatalk

I just hope it won't be really obvious I'm trans, so people only know if I tell them. One can dream I suppose.

But if it is somehow known that I'm trans, I just have to own it I guess. Don't let people treat me bad because of it. Everyone has things people use against them. It isn't as if everyone would have loved me if I was cis.

Exactly, I know it's hard to not worry about what others think but please try to. Don't feel bad, I sometimes forget this too. Hold your head high and be proud of who you are. Much of passing out their really is confidence and owning who you are. Sure people can look back at my past and put the pieces together but I don't dwell on it. For example, the other day H&R block called about my scheduled appointment that I had scheduled a year in advance. This person didn't have a clue as to who I am. Now because my pay is now considered tax exempt I don't have to file this year so all I had to do was cancel the appointment. However, I had to tell her exactly what was up so that could be done. I didn't go into more detail than I needed to, but said enough to prove my case, especially since both my name and gender were changed legally, to be able to cancel the appointment and get them to update their records so in the future they would call for Mariah instead of Michael in the future if they needed to get a hold of me. So hold your head up high and be proud of who you are. Hugs
Mariah

Quote from: ScottyMac on February 10, 2015, 01:04:16 PM
But if it is somehow known that I'm trans, I just have to own it I guess. Don't let people treat me bad because of it. Everyone has things people use against them. It isn't as if everyone would have loved me if I was cis.

Quote from: ScottyMac on February 08, 2015, 03:43:03 AM
Say you
-transitioned/started hormones at 16.
-had all the surgeries done by 18
- passed completely

Would complete stealth be possible?

Yes of course one can live stealth, even deep stealth where no one knows. The question is how big of a footprint do you want to leave in the world? Want a Facebook page, an instagram account, linked in profile? The more clues one leaves about their identity, the easier it will be to find out about one's past. It's as simple as that. The question is, is that a trade-off that one is willing to make in order to protect their identity or past? You will find people on both sides of the issues who wrestle with this alligator all the time and it has been talked to death for decades now since the days of Christine Jorgensen. There are definitely some deep stealth women out there, who are extremely careful about their pasts and go to ungodly lengths to hide it including fake pasts. Personally I don't understand how they can live their lives like that, but that's just my own thinking.

The way I see it, as far as me, I live my life with a don't ask, don't tell policy. I know who I am and where I came from, but it's not the thing that identifies me as a person. So I downplay it as much as possible. I still have a Facebook page, but I don't link to LGBT topics. I have a few other transitioned friends on my friends list, but I don't over due it. If someone wanted to find out my past they could easily enough for $20 with a background check website.

A few years ago I worked for a military contractor where I had to give out both names that I had been known by for my background check. I had to do it was well to get a gun license. In both cases I was treated very fairly. But I also know that once one person knows something it might as well be 10 more, because who knows who tells who. That's the world we live in post 9/11.

Quote
I ask because people seem to say it is impossible these days, someone will always know, you'll live in fear of being outed, your essentially lying to everyone.

If stealth isn't possible, I don't think I'll even bother transitioning. And I really don't want to be a female, but to me that seems better than being an out transsexual in today's world. I don't want to be "different", just a normal guy. And if I can't have that, I just don't see the point to life as a transgender male or a female.

I just don't want being transgender to be the thing that defines me to others.

I think the word that describes a lot of people, and includes me as well is "compartmentalized" stealth. I keep my transition to myself with my coworkers. I keep it to myself for nearly all new friends I have made since my transition, like gym buddies (or my zumba friends). Most (but not all) family and relatives know about my transition. The ones that don't know I don't talk to or wouldn't talk to anyways, so no biggie for me. Some people like my endo, and people I have "had" to tell about my past are on a need to know basis. If they didn't need to know, I probably wouldn't have told them. The only thing I have to watch out for, is having both sets of people in the same room at the same time. I don't bring up my childhood at work. If it comes up I give only limited information about me. I don't make up facts about a past I didn't live, I just choose not to share certain parts of my life with people. This way I know I am an honest person, and decide who gets to know what about me.

Dealing with my past has never been a burden on me from what I have lived so far. If I made up a childhood I would feel guilt about lying to people. The only part of this that sucks is that having lived a life in both sexes has given me incredible insight into the world. I can see how women do not understand men and vice versa. Sometimes I want to say something, but in the end I keep it to myself. My win, the world's loss is how I feel.

I don't know...I work in a job that required a police background check, so I had to explain to my boss why I had a previous name that was clearly female. As far as I can tell, she has respected my confidentiality on this. If she did tell anyone, or if anyone else found this out from my file, no one has EVER mentioned it to me and no one has treated me any differently. So technically, it's probably impossible to be stealth in the sense that legally, old documentation would remain. But in the real world, I don't think it comes up that often. I don't have anything on google that connects me to trans stuff, if someone googles me they just find stuff under my current name and gender. I also don't have contact with many people who knew me from before. Someone would have to do a lot of deep digging to find out the "truth" and most people can't be arsed to go through with all that.

The only thing I have in my old name is high school qualifications and birth certificate, which can both be changed. I suppose there is a load of other documents, I don't know much about this.

Also, do you know if stuff you did before you were 18 come up in background checks? I am pretty sure crimes don't, but would a name change?

Quote from: ScottyMac on February 10, 2015, 03:09:50 PM

Also, do you know if stuff you did before you were 18 come up in background checks? I am pretty sure crimes don't, but would a name change?

Depends on the background check done - there are varying degrees and methods for background checks.  There is no one single system that gets tapped into that has all the magical information.

I changed my first name (and gave myself a middle name since I didn't have one) when I was 12.  Sometimes, people find that information.  Sometimes, they don't.  It just depends how public the information is and how many systems the name had to be changed in.  Because my name change happened so young, things like my driver's license (age 15), college applications, bank accounts, and other happened-after-age-12 documents don't have any trace of my old name.  Also, the notice I had to post in the paper about my name change happened before such things were ALSO published online (not all newspapers do this, but a lot to now), so people would have to go to a tiny library in a tiny, rural town to search for the publication.

You dont have to post any notice of a name change in Britain, so I will be fine there.
Will there be a "X changed their name to Y" document that will show up in the background check, and/or be easily accessible?