Love to hear what you think, or maybe my observation is a one time thing.
When I was recovering postop in Montreal, I had about 7 days in the recovery centre with Trans folks from around the world. Met a really nice woman from New Zealand, many from US and Europe, and of course half were from Canada (half our provinces fund surgeries).
Anyhow, my observation was this:
All the MTF were over age 40...one was 65. Good for her!
But the FTM - five of them, were all under 25. (And all were cute....wow)

It got me to thinking, I don't see or read of many 50 year FTM.
Why is that?

Now of course, today  there are tons of young MTF transitioning, but for that one brief week such a difference.

Whatcha think?

  There was a study done recently about country of origin distribution for SRS for a clinic in Thailand.  It mostly focused on MTF.  A few Asian countries had the lowest mean age at around 19 or 20.  Japan and US had means between 30 and 40 and the European countries not in the soviet block were slightly older if I remember correctly.  Still this was just one clinic.
  I've heard it's pretty typical for MTF people (in the U.S.) to start transitioning in their 30s and 40s if not later.  I have no idea about FTM however.  It seems like they are better at passing faster in their transition and often live in stealth.  Unfortunately, the FTM SRS surgery isn't as successful as the MTF ones.  So I believe there are more non-op transmen than transwomen.
  I think the super interesting statistic is that transpeople have reported equal if not more psychological benefit from FFS as they had derived from SRS.  While the study is somewhat anecdotal because of the low sample-size of people who had both surgeries, it begs the question, which should be the priority FFS or SRS.  Because everyone sees and interacts with your face and it doesn't require any letters of recommendation from therapists to get FFS, I prefer it.  Although I am biased by my experience.


     Hugs,
- Katie
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Quote from: Obfuskatie on February 12, 2015, 06:57:59 AM
  There was a study done recently about country of origin distribution for SRS for a clinic in Thailand.  It mostly focused on MTF.  A few Asian countries had the lowest mean age at around 19 or 20.  Japan and US had means between 30 and 40 and the European countries not in the soviet block were slightly older if I remember correctly.  Still this was just one clinic.
  I've heard it's pretty typical for MTF people (in the U.S.) to start transitioning in their 30s and 40s if not later.  I have no idea about FTM however.  It seems like they are better at passing faster in their transition and often live in stealth.  Unfortunately, the FTM SRS surgery isn't as successful as the MTF ones.  So I believe there are more non-op transmen than transwomen.
  I think the super interesting statistic is that transpeople have reported equal if not more psychological benefit from FFS as they had derived from SRS.  While the study is somewhat anecdotal because of the low sample-size of people who had both surgeries, it begs the question, which should be the priority FFS or SRS.  Because everyone sees and interacts with your face and it doesn't require any letters of recommendation from therapists to get FFS, I prefer it.  Although I am biased by my experience.


     Hugs,
- Katie
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Interesting...Thx
I never considered FFS even if I could afford it. I guess I felt who's to say who's beautiful and who's not?
For me, SRS was essential to by well being

I'm wondering if the late age is an anomaly caused by widespread use of DES in the '60s. It was banned in the early 70s, meaning that we're still seeing a lot of the people who were made transgender as the result of DES use during pregnancy. They would be in their mid 40s now. That might be why we're seeing a lot of MtF's transitioning now in their 40s and 50s.

We still have plastic pollution creating isoflavones that get trapped by our fat cells.  We also have medical waste polluting the water tables with estrogens because of improper disposal of birth control or prescriptions as well as an imperfect water treatment and reclamation program.  We only started noticing it recently in the U.S. as well as free trade zones because of rising cases of gynecomastia and huge increases in the ratio of female fish to male fish in lakes near civilization.  DES was bad did a lot of harm, but we are still doing more to destroy our own ecosystem.

One thing that's been gnawing at me about the whole FTM and MTF trans thing: I kinda don't like that we are separated from cisnormative polarities.  I am a woman.  Transgender/Transsexual is the label cis people give me because they won't view me as a normal woman, no matter what stage in my transition.  I feel like 'transwoman' is a compromise.  Saying I went from male to female is just as silly because I always was and continue to be female.  It's just that I need medical help getting my body to resemble how I think and feel.


     Hugs,
- Katie
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There have been studies done that the average FtM trans person transitions younger than the average MtF trans person.

Why this is, it's a complicated web of social questions.

Like, in the old transgender-classification system which split trans women up into "young transitioners" and "old transitioners," "heterosexual" and "homosexual," they didn't even include a category for older-transitioning FtM trans people. And in that classification, most FtM trans people were more like young-transitioning MtFs, the type who never fit in as their birth sex, expressed gender-nonconformity from a young age, and tended to not have otherwise "successful" lives as their birth sex where their gender identity remained in secret and was only brought out through fantasies and secret cross-dressing like the typical late-transitioning MtF narrative.

In terms of reasoning? I don't know. I can't help but believe that our culture plays a big part in it... people who were AFAB have WAY more options in terms of self-expression than those who were AMAB. It's more or less socially acceptable to be a tomboy, it's relatively acceptable for even straight women to wear "male" clothing while still being female, whereas if you're male, you just simply are not allowed in any circumstance to wear female clothing in everyday life, you can only do it if it's a joke or an act or you're actually trying to be female. I don't know if this is the reason or not, but it definitely doesn't help in terms of driving trans-women much deeper into the closet and having to be more secretive about it.

It's worth noting that as society has eased up on its rigid gender binary, and stopped criminalizing gender nonconformity among the transfeminine spectrum, MtF trans people have been transitioning younger and younger as well. My laser technician actually said "you know, when we started, almost every trans woman we had who came in here was over 40, but now there's a lot of younger girls like you starting to come in. It's actually really cool to see happening."

So I expect that once we reach full social acceptance, where both men and women are equally able to express gender-nonconformity without societal stigmatization, the ages will even out.

I have still seen a fair amount of older FTMs...

But I do know that a higher portion of people on the autistic spectrum are FTM than in the general public. And the rates of autism has increased recently so maybe that is why?

QuoteBut I do know that a higher portion of people on the autistic spectrum are FTM than in the general public.

Darkwolf, that's interesting. Do you have a link to a study of this, or some such?

Great thread Muffinheart

I agree that their don't seem to be many over 50 FTMs, I'm in the process of looking for community now. At 53 I can say that I wanted very badly to transition when I was young but the treatments were very difficult to get and the social stigma was so high that it was avery dangerous time. I completely blocked it from my mind for a long time. I'm so glad that all of this is so much more available now. I do get very envious about the younger guys getting to have a life, and they look great! It's hard to acknowledge a lifetime of regret. But, it's here now and I can try to get a few years of happiness or at least comfort, so why not. I know it will still be few more years to become fully what I really am, but at least it feels possible now.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on February 12, 2015, 07:45:31 AM
In terms of reasoning? I don't know. I can't help but believe that our culture plays a big part in it... people who were AFAB have WAY more options in terms of self-expression than those who were AMAB. It's more or less socially acceptable to be a tomboy, it's relatively acceptable for even straight women to wear "male" clothing while still being female, whereas if you're male, you just simply are not allowed in any circumstance to wear female clothing in everyday life, you can only do it if it's a joke or an act or you're actually trying to be female. I don't know if this is the reason or not, but it definitely doesn't help in terms of driving trans-women much deeper into the closet and having to be more secretive about it.

It's worth noting that as society has eased up on its rigid gender binary, and stopped criminalizing gender nonconformity among the transfeminine spectrum, MtF trans people have been transitioning younger and younger as well. My laser technician actually said "you know, when we started, almost every trans woman we had who came in here was over 40, but now there's a lot of younger girls like you starting to come in. It's actually really cool to see happening."

So I expect that once we reach full social acceptance, where both men and women are equally able to express gender-nonconformity without societal stigmatization, the ages will even out.

I agree about the social acceptance of AFAB options in clothing and appearance. 40-50 years ago it was pretty rigidly enforced for AFAB persons to appear in traditional female clothing but that did start to ease up pretty quickly over the next 20 or so years. I've been lucky that through choice of vocation and that increased availability to get away with male clothing I have been able to present, at least to myself, as mostly male for the majority of adult life. I believe it helped me make it through life with lower appearance dysphoria that what AMAB have been forced, and still are, to endure.

I think we will continue to see both AFAB and AMAB get themselves aligned at earlier ages.

I thought that autism is simply unlikely to be diagnosed in girls, because the tests and diagnostics are flawed in their methodology when not only applied to boys.  I'd guess that FTM work better under the diagnostic criteria than cis or even transwomen.


     Hugs,
- Katie
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Quote from: Tysilio on February 12, 2015, 08:43:06 AM
Darkwolf, that's interesting. Do you have a link to a study of this, or some such?

Here is a news article about it:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kyle-simon/is-there-a-link-between-autism-and-gender-dysphoria_b_3896317.html

Thanks.

Out of curiosity - were thise five guys all there for bottom surgery or top surgery? The younger age would make a lot of sense if it was too surgery since a mastectomy removes a very identifiable gender marker which for many is not easily concealed even with binding. My sense is that top surgery has primacy as a procedure over bottom surgery for the guys due to that reason, plus the cost and effectiveness of the latter procedure makes it either unpalatable and/or unobtainable, especially cost wise for the younger folk.

I wonder too if the average age of our own forum's f2m membership isn't generally younger than the average m2f membership age. I get the sense that it is. I wonder if patriarchal cis normative societal conformities still make it more difficult for trans women to come terms with their gender identity and they struggle longer with masculinity expectations in the face of hostile attitudes to behaviours that "don't confirm".

Quote from: Ms Grace on February 13, 2015, 01:22:00 PM
Out of curiosity - were thise five guys all there for bottom surgery or top surgery? The younger age would make a lot of sense if it was too surgery since a mastectomy removes a very identifiable gender marker which for many is not easily concealed even with binding. My sense is that top surgery has primacy as a procedure over bottom surgery for the guys due to that reason, plus the cost and effectiveness of the latter procedure makes it either unpalatable and/or unobtainable, especially cost wise for the younger folk.

I wonder too if the average age of our own forum's f2m membership isn't generally younger than the average m2f membership age. I get the sense that it is. I wonder if patriarchal cis normative societal conformities still make it more difficult for trans women to come terms with their gender identity and they struggle longer with masculinity expectations in the face of hostile attitudes to behaviours that "don't confirm".

Not to make light of it, by the shuffle of everyone's feet, all were bottom surgeries. And the fact everyone carried their "donut" with them.
And, they were all from Ontario where the surgery is fully funded by the government.

Quote from: suzifrommd on February 12, 2015, 07:13:50 AM
I'm wondering if the late age is an anomaly caused by widespread use of DES in the '60s. It was banned in the early 70s, meaning that we're still seeing a lot of the people who were made transgender as the result of DES use during pregnancy. They would be in their mid 40s now. That might be why we're seeing a lot of MtF's transitioning now in their 40s and 50s.

I agree. According to author and DES activist Pat Cody, DES was used in 4.8 million pregnancies in the U.S., most of which resulted in live births and in most of which the same, very high, dosing schedule was used (the recommended dosing schedule was in a table published in the Physician's Desk Reference throughout the 1950s and 60s, and that's what most doctors within the U.S. followed).

I've been told by some DES daughters that DES was used in a roughly similar number of pregnancies (about 5 million) in countries outside the US, and, while prescribing guidelines may have varied slightly by country to country, most of them probably followed what the U.S. did fairly closely. That would make a total of around 10 million pregnancies worldwide, and presumably around 50 percent of those would have involved a biologically male baby (most of whom were exposed to fairly similar doses of DES, so you'd expect most to be experiencing similar underlying effects). I'm not sure of the exact figures, but that's got to be close to 1 percent of the male-assigned US population in that age group, which means it's likely to be the main cause of MTF transsexuality in the over 40s. If anything, the surprising thing is that there aren't more visibly trans MTFs from the DES era. Even allowing for suicides and deaths through reckless living, there must surely be a lot of DES-exposed people who are actually trans, and either stuck in a state of denial about it, or transitioned and passing so successfully no one realises they're not cis women!

As to why the increase in FTM's among the younger age group, perhaps it might at least partly be due to progestins? Progestins are the second type of artificial female hormone (designed to mimic progesterone). When DES and other estrogens fell from grace as medicines, they were, to a large extent, replaced by progestins. Although they're supposed to be mimicking a female hormone, most progestins are, to a greater or lesser extent, androgenic, and they're known to have actually induced virilization of female fetuses in certain cases.

I think one aspet might be that masculine girls are far more accepted in man-world than feminine boys. so all the social hangups mtf people often have had to fight through; family disapproval, societal disapproval,internlised hatred and shame,  blah blah, theyre not so troubled by as tomboyish girls.
Masculine girls and pre-op FTM transmen are approved of by men, who are titilated by their frequent lesbian orientation and see in them all the virtues of manhood they imagine in themselves; strength, assertiveness blah blah.
basically guys being chauvinist dicks as usual. and in feminine guys they see the opposite, hence the beatings they mete out. its just easier to be a tomboy than a sissy.



ive read a little about the roughly 200,000 chemicals weve spread throughout the biosphere since we industrialised with interest, partiularly fire retardants and tetraethyl lead, but i also feel transgendered people could well just the result of having such an enormous number of people alive. so even the fairly rare circumstances that lead to a transgender person being born become common when theres a population of 7,000,000,000 individuals. its the old joke about 1 in a million chances happening 7 thousand times a day.
just my 2c/


"So I expect that once we reach full social acceptance, where both men and women are equally able to express gender-nonconformity without societal stigmatization, the ages will even out."

agreed.

What's wrong with isoflavones? 
I think, perhaps with absolutely no data... Lol. Perhaps men are later because they have to get to the foxtrot Oscar world point of their lives to overcome the masculine image and shame aspect. I am fast approaching the foxtrot Oscar world stage and I am in my early 50's.  But one person does not a statistic make


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I was thinking thoroughly how to explain my response to the issue (FTMs transitioning way younger in age than MTFs, in general). Alexbb did it in the response quoted WAY below, after my HUGE rant. Very well put!

I ask everyone reading this: Just tell me, how many cases of beat up FTMs have you heard about, compared to MTFs? How many fathers do exert physical violence on their FTM "daughters", as opposed to their MTF "sons"? How many parents disown and kick out their FTM "daughter" to the streets, as opposed to their MTF "son"? How many FTMs are chased and beat up in the streets, for being "different" and a "freak", compared to MTFs? How many FTMs have as much trouble using boys' restrooms in schools, the mall, public buildings, as MTFs not 100% passable do? How many men go complain to the manager in a department store, restaurant or whatever public place, about seeing a "woman dressed as a man" using men's bathrooms, dressing rooms, or picking out male clothing? Compare and contrast that with the complaints many MTFs that are not fully passable, may get from "territorial" cis women who may think a stranger is "invading her and her cis sisters' turf". Sadly, my very own mother is one of these specimens, a total bigot, Catholic zealot, not to mention my father, both of them 100% transphobic and my dad is a misogynist as well, to boot.

Also, think about the stupid macho-minded philosophy I describe below, shared by both the western and eastern cultures, no matter how developed or underdeveloped the specific country might be:

Generally speaking, a woman changing into a man is a "step up", both in the social and financial world. It is seen as "wanting to improve" one's status.

But a man wanting to become a woman, as our current world sadly sees it, is a "step backwards", it means relinquishing a privileged status, both socially and financially, and "degrading oneself for no rational reason".

If a boy behaves or dresses girly in school, he will be bullied and beat up for sure. Even if "he" doesn't act or dress girly, if "he" isn't a total extrovert, a jock, plays sports like everybody else, but rather keeps to "himself" then "he" will be bullied, harassed and beat up throughout all school years, and will likely commit suicide, be beat up to death or, like me, do the opposite to what HER brains tell HER to do, just for self-preservation: instead of seeking hormone therapy for feminisation, one goes the other way around (in my case, bulking up, becoming a HUGE bodybuilder) to scare off all bullies in school. It worked for me in senior high and college, no more harassment, even though I was still shy and non-social; yet I was admired as a role-model by all the brainless macho neanderthals, based purely on physical appearance, while I was secretly dressing up and looking ridiculous at it. But now, all that bulking up in my school years has made my transition extremely difficult because getting rid of so much muscle, specially in the upper body is nearly impossible, not to mention the damage I did to my bone structure, specially my ribcage and back. And even so, I pass most of the time, except for old acquaintances, being a tall individual (six feet even) in the land of short people --women almost one foot shorter than me, as an average-- and a somewhat physically big individual.

All that I said before, that may happen to a MTF "boy", if you compare it with a FTM "girl", how often does that happen? Most likely "she" will be the bully, not the other way around, and "she" will most likely never be harassed or beat up, for wanting to be a guy. Called names like "butch" or whatever maybe, but a big risk of physical violence, both at school, the streets or public places, like a MTF suffers on a regular basis, I don't think so!!!

So, sadly, the stigmatized society we live in at this  day and age, makes FTMs go through transition WAY MORE EASILY than MTFs (OK not easily, I meant with greatly less difficulties and roadblocks, and much less risk of physical violence).

And to top it off, to me it seems that, in passing terms, being FTM is much easier than MTF: Take testosterone, then naturally, almost "magically" develop a manly voice, get some facial and body hair, and then all you need to do is top surgery to get rid of unwanted female glands, bulk up on the upper body to balance out your big hips, if you have them, or simply wear clothes that minimize hips and maximize upper body and shoulder width and voila! You're there! I've never ever heard of FMS (facial masculinization surgery), I know there must exist something like that, but, if you compare in percentage, how many FTMs NEED TO go through that, compared to how many MTFs REALLY NEED extensive and expensive FFS in order to pass? IMO, FFS is more important for many MTFs than even SRS, to be able to "pass" socially. How about FTMs? Normally, taking T will do the trick fine, no real need for facial surgeries!

Sorry if it sounds like I am ranting and venting too much, but I honestly think that this IS the current state of affairs in the transgender world. Being a FTM is in general way easier than a MTF, so starting at a young age poses not much of a threat socially compared to what a MTF has to face, that's why IMO way more MTFs have to "wait until" they end their productive life as a pretend guy, then retire, collect their savings and finally "become themselves", in spite of already having kids and spouses, which doesn't seem to be such a frequent issue for FTMs.

Gosh sorry for all this rant, I needed to go out get some stuff at the mall, and yet stayed here in my room instead, writing all this drivel, but If I exaggerated on something I just wrote, or I am just totally off the mark, please DO set me straight, okay?

Cheers

Bibi B.

Quote from: alexbb on February 13, 2015, 06:22:48 PM
I think one aspet might be that masculine girls are far more accepted in man-world than feminine boys. so all the social hangups mtf people often have had to fight through; family disapproval, societal disapproval,internlised hatred and shame,  blah blah, theyre not so troubled by as tomboyish girls.
Masculine girls and pre-op FTM transmen are approved of by men, who are titilated by their frequent lesbian orientation and see in them all the virtues of manhood they imagine in themselves; strength, assertiveness blah blah.
basically guys being chauvinist dicks as usual. and in feminine guys they see the opposite, hence the beatings they mete out. its just easier to be a tomboy than a sissy.

"So I expect that once we reach full social acceptance, where both men and women are equally able to express gender-nonconformity without societal stigmatization, the ages will even out."

agreed.

I agree with the above sociological differences and their effects totally.

Another thing that I think adds to the mix is this. It is known that females are more in touch with their emotions right. So it would make sense that a DFAB would get in touch with self and accept earlier. Whereas a DMAB besides the social stigmas/threats etc also takes longer to process the emotions. Just a theory that T has that funky effect of deadening your emotions therefor slowing your process of self discovery.

Myself I was a sensitive kid now though more of a numb person. DMAB btw and as for the DES thing to my knowledge and what my mom recollects she did not have anything whilst she was pregnant. DES for me would just explain how it happened either way time to look forward and fix things:)

Iv got friends who can accept me if I had a full transition but how mutch can I be accepted in public if I retane to many male features,  I want my transition to be as natural as possible and work..  Pass for a young girl like any other girl my age,  how do people deal with people that reject you for it