I have a question about being transgender which I just wonder if anyone has considered. If this has been discussed before please excuse me. I don't get on here much anymore.

Job 2:1-6
[1] Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
[2] And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
[3] And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
[4] And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
[5] But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
[6] And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

I have an openly lesbian friend who has been thinking about this. She feels that maybe her faithfulness to God is being tried while living a life of hell here. We have discussed this from time to time when I see her.

I have cisgender friends who have led some of the worst nightmares in life as well. One friend of mine struggled for years dealing with some military situations he was placed in and tried to remain faithful to God. He is just one of many who struggle with day to day life knowing Satan has come against them to try their faith and get them to curse God and die.

I too have issues which have effected me greatly in which I know it was Satan trying to get me to turn from God. Some may even hit pretty close to what some of you feel.

Don't get me wrong on this. I am NOT saying anyone here is demon possessed or following Lucifer. That is too shallow, judgmental and foolish.

Neither am I saying don't transition or do transition. That is not in my place. I am merely going to ask a question which I hope does not come across as hateful or judgmental.

Have you ever wondered if the whole reason you are transgender may boil down to Satan trying to get you to give up on the Lord or curse God and die?

When my gay or transgender friends speak with me about their faith I try to avoid the gay/transgender issues but go into a direction with scripture which will strengthen their faith. I would do the same with my friends which speak with me about things like abusive relatives, drug addiction and such. Many being weaknesses and others being a snare of Satan to lead them away from God. In each case the sensible thing for me is to focus on the strength and mercy of God and the scriptures which will strengthen their faith.

Anyway, I was just wondering. Have any of you considered this and decided that no matter what you will keep Christ first and live for him?

I hope this is not offensive as it is not meant to be.

May God bless.

The reason why I asked the question above is because as they say talk is cheap.

It's easy to love God when your health is good, the bills are paid and your transportation, job and home are all taken care of. When your body agrees with your mind and from outward appearance you look like nothing is wrong.

It's another story when you look in the mirror and despise the body looking back and the operation to make them agree is so costly it is not feasible. When your thoughts and mannerisms don't match your physical form and you have been picked on all your life for being different.

If you can gather in a church where the preacher claims that God loves you so much he'll grant all of your earthly financial desires. When your wallet is fat and friends abound talk is cheap.

When you gather and every time the law is referred to you cringe and people stare and talk in low voices behind your back and every sermon makes you feel worse it's hard to keep your faith. When all of the Christians around you are nothing more than Job's comforters ridiculing rather than shewing mercy it is hard to stand in faith.

I hope this gives an example of why I asked. Not to ridicule but just to know. How do you view this?

May God bless.

Dear Del,
I shall reply. Nice to see you BTW.

As you know I have no religion and no belief in Gods. I never have.

What is now known from good scientific studies is that gender identification is linked to a number of genes, at the moment some 50 genes determine gender and mutation in a small number is sufficient to affect gender identification. It is also well proven that the brains of TG men and women respond to stimuli such as pheromones in a similar way to their cis brothers and sisters. This cannot be faked, nor can genetics.

Many TG women my age come from mothers who had been treated with DES to prevent miscarriage,  the mutagenic effects of DES are now well documented and the drug banned for use in humans because of such effects.

Your concept or question that TG may be a result of spiritual interaction is clearly false. It may be a belief but that belief holds no credence against scientific examination.

I'm not aware of any Biblical passage that says that being transgender is sinful or turns TG people who hold religious belief from their God.

As for homosexuality I have no opinion. I'm a straight female, I have female TG friends who are lesbian. I am aware that sexual orientation has no link to gender identification.

Cindy,
It's good to hear from you again.

Thank you for your response.

If I worded this wrong I apologize as it was sort of meant to show that through a Christian's faith they might believe that this like the sufferings of Job in a different sense might be Satan trying to get them to give up and turn. Not what some say as demon possessed.

It would be more along the lines of Satan causing this just as he did the sufferings of Job by causing it in one manner or another. Peradventure the administering of drugs as you say or something else. I guess one such idea might be a doctor who heeds a wrong spirit or something and administers a wrong or untested drug or something of the like.

I do appreciate your response from a scientific standpoint however.

I do look forward to some responses from the Christians as well.

Once again, thank you kiddo.

If we were to use the bible and Christianity to prove this it would be caused by sin and sin alone. Just by it's presence not that we ourselves did any wrong, but since was brought in the world by Adam and Eve. The fact is by dealing with our being transgendered we are being truthful about ourselves in the eye of the lord. So we have done nothing wrong. I agree with Cindy completely though. My previous primary care doctor tried to use religion as a reason to talk me out of it and to not right the referrals I needed for insurance purposes yet he found the need to make sure I got the correct doctor in the office who would be willing and had treated trans patients in the past.
Mariah

Quote from: Del on February 16, 2015, 12:16:06 AM
Cindy,
It's good to hear from you again.

Thank you for your response.

If I worded this wrong I apologize as it was sort of meant to show that through a Christian's faith they might believe that this like the sufferings of Job in a different sense might be Satan trying to get them to give up and turn. Not what some say as demon possessed.

It would be more along the lines of Satan causing this just as he did the sufferings of Job by causing it in one manner or another. Peradventure the administering of drugs as you say or something else. I guess one such idea might be a doctor who heeds a wrong spirit or something and administers a wrong or untested drug or something of the like.

I do appreciate your response from a scientific standpoint however.

I do look forward to some responses from the Christians as well.

Once again, thank you kiddo.

Then if it is a Christian faith issue, why are TG issues of exactly the same incidence among all Faiths and among those of us who have no concept of gods?

That said, I would suggest that my life has been one of accepting and helping my fellow humans no matter their belief or orientation, something which seems to be missing in many of those who express great religious belief and something I read about almost daily from USA fundamentalist religious leaders.

If my life was a result of Satanic influence, no matter how subtle, I would have thought that I would be openly stridently abusive to such people. I'm not. I accept them for who they are and hope that they will eventually be cured.

I like to think of my situation like the blind man in John 9. No one has sinned, I was made transgender to show the works of God.

Hugs,
Marissa

MarisaJ,
That is the angle I am bringing. Thank you for taking time to answer.

Cindy,
I mean no offense. the angle I come from is for a Christian answer about their faith but as for those who do not believe such as yourself, just because Satan deceived a doctor into giving women an untried drug would not mean the recipients of such would be evil lunatics. After all, Satan stands behind many pulpits today speaking good kind words and such.

By the way, I would appreciate it if you could send me by way of private message more information on the drugs you mentioned and the years they were used.

And once again, thank you for your response.

Hi Del, I am typing up my answer for you and it should be posted soon. 

Here is my first response to this:


    The Bible Is Not A Medical Book


With that being said, I'm going to say that the Bible is a collection of biblical stories. These stories are life lessons and I think everyone should read it. Think of it as (Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.) I was raised Southern Baptist and although I don't believe in Dogma and no longer consider myself to be a Baptist, I do have Christian beliefs.

My belief is that Satan is manmade. Yes I know the story of Lucifer, the fallen angel and so forth, but these are in my belief just stories to teach lessons and nothing more. I also don't believe in hell. Hell is a man made belief and hell itself is different for everyone and they experience it right here on Earth. The devil is nothing more than the wrongful actions of humans. When someone say "The devil made me do it." or "Satan tricked me ..", those are just excuses for someone who doesn't want to take responsibility for their actions.

When looking at the Bible, it's full of contradictions. However if you look at the big picture, there is a lot of good stuff in there. Anyone that uses the bible to say it's a sin to or wrong to be transgender which nothing says that specifically in the Bible. However some imply that it is with:

Quote from: Deuteronomy 22:5"A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God."

However there are verses that imply that it's OK like:

Quote from: Matthew 19:12"For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it."

Like I said, there are contradictions. But as far as being transgender I think this is the most significant verse that sums it all up:

Quote from: Galatians 3:28"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

I think that it the most important message from the Bible when it comes to being transgender.

As far as being gay or lesbian, I don't believe it's a sin in the Bible. There is debate on the original translations of the Bible in the what was thought to be sodomy, was really about promiscuous sex and pedophiles. Also remember that in roman times, gay sex was fairly common and considered normal. The Christians of the time were very much against the Romans. I mean after they did play a major part in crucifying Jesus and they wanted to vilify the Romans as much as possible.

Greetings, Del  It's good to see you around here again.  Please forgive me if my answer seems oversimplified as I am very tired, but wanted to reply before I went to sleep.



First off, I commend you for sitting down and asking questions: wanting to know from our perspectives on the transgender topic.  I feel that dialogue is very important, even if we disagree on certain things.  As for your question, I feel the best way to answer is by sharing my story.

Have you ever wondered if the whole reason you are transgender may boil down to Satan trying to get you to give up on the Lord or curse God and die?

No.  To be honest, if Satan wanted me to do that, then being cisgender would have been the best way for me to go.  It wasn't until I realized that I was transgender that I came to a saving faith in Christ just a couple of years back.  Before then, I would consider myself just to be "playing church": not really caring about the things of the Lord....running away from Him.   I was a depressed woman who hated myself, I believe part of the reason was being a Lordship Salvationist.  That, in a way, made me feel like giving up on the Lord because I could never reach His standard of holiness and say "screw it, what's the point?".  This was before I had a true understanding of grace, which lead me to believe in "Once Saved Always Saved" as Biblical doctrine.  I officially dedicated my my life to the Lord after hearing about the promise of His eternal security, and I now I strive more to follow His commandments, not out of fear of Hell, but just in obedience to God.  Granted, the Lord will discipline His children if we decide to live a wicked life, so that (should) keep us in check, but even if some of us are the type to be heavily disciplined on this Earth, it is such a comfort to know that we cannot screw up our ticket in Heaven, since that was based on Jesus to begin with.  Some of those "professing Christians" who tell me that I am wrong and I need to repent from this "sin", or I will go to Hell, I question their salvation as I'm not quite sure *they* understand the concept of grace.  When the Bible said "Whosoever", He meant it.

I will admit, however, that being transgender sure does confuse things for me, even as being a strong Christian (things like who I can marry and having to mentally reconcile "clobber passages" each time I see them being used).  For myself I believe that me being transgender is a product of the fall.  I see it as a birth defect, but as in Joseph's case, what the enemy intended for evil, God used it for good.  It is possible that I may have never come to a saving faith as a transgendered individual.  I know that God affirms me as a man.  Now, what to do with that affirmation?  I aspire to live out my manhood through the lens of the King James Bible and seek to gain the characteristics of what it Biblically means to be a man, and more specifically, the qualities needed to be a godly husband: a.k.a working by the sweat of my brow so I can support my wife and not be worse than an infidel....being strong, and being a leader in the house and the head of the household, loving the wife as Christ loves the church, and so on.  Back then, I couldn't relate to trying to live through Biblical womanhood, because I wasn't a woman, but now as my true self, I embrace the qualities that God wants to specifically want see in a man, even if I don't have many of those qualities yet.  I accept all and reject none.
Then there's the issue of the gospel, especially in the LBGT (mainly focusing on the T here) community where many have been condemned as reprobates and sodomites, resulting in many of us turning their back on the gospel.  I wonder how to effectively deliver the gospel to those who feel like castaways: well, I have a feeling that Jude 1:22's approach would be best approach from Christian people trying to reach them....and that's having compassion, making a difference.  For you as a cisgender minister, I feel that you are helping doing that by just listening to our stories.  I believe *that* within itself makes a difference.  For a transgender person like myself, I think that would entail walking my life out as a Christian transman trying to live for God....and let the light of Christ shrine through me.  Granted ALL Christians should be letter their Light shine anyways, BUT to a LBGT person who wants to feel the love of God, but feel like they are unworthy due to the church's condemning message, having an LBGT trans person walk that out may be the *only* way they get saved, if they are still emotionally not in a place to have the gospel received by a heterosexual cisgendered Christian.

Having said that, having some form of "church hurt" doesn't change the fact that there is a Heaven and a Hell, and that our souls are going to spend eternity in one of them, and with that being said, I have no problems saving with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh as the Bible talks about.  I believe emphasizing eternal security and exposing that wicked Lordship Salvation crap that's going to send a person to Hell is what is going to do the trick.  It's a beautiful thing that salvation is 100 percent free and that we don't work for it, and *that*is what I want to get across to those in the LBGT community, and not just them, but every creature.  Many may disagree and call me a heretic, easy-belivism false prophet, wicked sodomite reprobate God-rejecting devil doing the work of Satan, but I will stand firm on my beliefs concerning this.

I'm sorry that this wasn't as detailed, but I hope this helps you in your understanding.  God bless.

Thank you all for the answers.
I look forward to reading the others.

King Malachite,
I'll check out your answer tomorrow.
It's about time to get some sleep.

Sydney_NYC,
Thank you as well.

I appreciate all of the answers and I will check them out further tomorrow.

Have a blessed night.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, we the Intersex are condemned to hell just for being born , by a lot of "teachers".
So, even if I stayed "male", I'd be going to hell still.  Many say God doesn't make mistakes, so we shouldn't exsist..

I am a God fearing Christian, but do I believe 100% of everything in the Bible? No.
I have three tattoos that I proudly wear, totally visible to all including my congregation:
Gen 1:31 - inside right wrist which says: God saw all that he made, and it was good.
Believe - one simple word on my left hand
Only God can judge me - inside of my left arm.

There are many great examples that speak of judgement, one being that God judges by the heart, man judges by the outward appearance. We live in a world of people judging people by how they look, their dress, any imperfections. I judge people by their goodness.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

This is the way I was made,to help others in the same position.

I am not Christian, but my tradition teaches that part of the reason why bad things happen or that people are born with things like birth defects, disabilities, etc. is that it helps bring us closer to The Creator (that and karma/reincarnation). People come to this life needing to connect to God, but it's hard to notice the influence of The Creator when things are going the way you want. When things are going good, its easier for people to attribute the good to their own actions and forget that God plays a role in all that occurs. Now, when things go wrong, you're sick, you're different and an outcast from society, it can also be hard to notice God's influence, but many people start then blaming God. The hard times can often lead us into more of a dialogue with God. Hopefully from that dialogue, you grow closer.

If you're an outcast from certain societies by being trans*, it's part of God's will that you were born that way (yes, and we do believe in science and realize that being trans* can come from genetic differences and/or from the influence of drugs the mother took while pregnant). Like Job, this condition is meant to test our will, make us question society, and ultimately to (hopefully) bring us into a closer connection. It takes a lot of strength to become comfortable in your gender identity and to go against society's prejudices by transitioning anyways (or to do the opposite and go against your mind/body's wishes to transition and choose not to anyways) -- that strength is good, because you also need a lot of strength in life to bring us closer to God and go against the things in society which seem appealing to our carnal natures that will distract us from our connection with God.

We don't believe in a devil or Satan, any evil in the world is from a lack of connection with the Creator. Trans* people aren't evil, and they're just as able to reach a connection with the Creator and reach the level of spirituality needed to merge into God (or, go to Heaven for the Abrahamic traditions).

QuoteThat said, I would suggest that my life has been one of accepting and helping my fellow humans no matter their belief or orientation, something which seems to be missing in many of those who express great religious belief and something I read about almost daily from USA fundamentalist religious leaders.

Unfortunately, the Christians take make the news are fundamental extremists and don't make up the majority. Most Christians I know are accepting of LGBTs, or even if they don't accept LGBTs they don't go out and do acts of violence that get them on the news. I don't see them being all that different from certain atheist individuals who do bad things to other people and hold prejudices.

Hi Del

Having studied the book of Job in the original Hebrew many years ago, I see it fundamentally as an extremely powerful parable on the human spirit and how we strive against adversity to overcome and prosper.  While totally respecting people's views on the sanctity of the text, there is a case to be made for the discussion between God and Statan being a literary device - a very effective one too. 

All said, however, I find it hard to imagine the forces of good and evil acting in cahoots to test my faith.  This seems to be utterly foreign to the concept of a kind and loving God.  Starting from the premise that God is all about love, it permanently perplexes me how we have taken religious texts and reinterpreted them in order to establish often rigid social control as well as strictures over free thinking. 

It's for these reasons that I abandoned many years of religious observance in favour of an informal humanist approach.  Quite clearly my religion was incapable of even trying to understand that my gender and orientation were inherent in me, and out of my control. Ultimately there was no value in the bland statements, totally lacking in sensitivity and insight, alongs the lines of "Don't do this; don't think that." 

While I welcome efforts from people like you to reach out and try to understand some of the complex richness that exists within humanity, I think that there is a lot of work to be done across the broader religious community to accept and embrace difference and diversity.   We've got to start somewhere, I suppose, but we first need to abandon the premise that Satan is involved, either as the force acting from behind, or from within us.

Regards
Julia

May I ask for some clarification to your question? Firstly, did Satan deceive transgender people in order to make them curse God and die -- or did Satan create transgender people, through genetic and hormonal manipulation? Secondly, what is the proper response, besides not cursing God, and living for Jesus? Is it to fight against transgender conditions, which (in any scenario I can think of) are not part of God's plan, but a Satanic manipulation of it, or is it okay to embrace it, and transition, as long as one doesn't curse God, and lives for Jesus as well?

Thank you.

Quote from: DriftingCrow on February 16, 2015, 09:11:08 AM
I am not Christian, but my tradition teaches that part of the reason why bad things happen or that people are born with things like birth defects, disabilities, etc. is that it helps bring us closer to The Creator (that and karma/reincarnation). People come to this life needing to connect to God, but it's hard to notice the influence of The Creator when things are going the way you want. When things are going good, its easier for people to attribute the good to their own actions and forget that God plays a role in all that occurs. Now, when things go wrong, you're sick, you're different and an outcast from society, it can also be hard to notice God's influence, but many people start then blaming God. The hard times can often lead us into more of a dialogue with God. Hopefully from that dialogue, you grow closer.

Hi Del-

I was getting ready to start typing and then I realized that DriftingCrow had basically said what I was going to say.

I have never seen being trans as being a curse; rather I see it as something that God thought was necessary for me to grow closer to Him. About 3 years ago I was one of the ones that had it made and I didn't give God any thanks for it; 3 years later and oh my how that has changed! I have been humbled, stripped bare, and brought to my knees by this experience. I discovered that I in fact did not know it all  and I also discovered an inner strength that I didn't know was there. I discovered grace and empathy. It's no longer all about me. For me this is a spiritual journey above all else.

Yes, being trans surely comes with it's own hassles and challenges. We all live the best way we can and try to be happy with who we are and with what we have, and hopefully we are able to bring joy into other peoples lives too while we are at it 

I look at being trans as a blessing and a challenge. Many will say "why me?", but I prefer to believe I've been given this challenge in life, to see how I'll deal with it. Do I fold or meet life head on? I say "bring it on."