Hi everyone. Apologies for the really long post, but I have all these questions swirling in my mind again, so I thought I'll share them here. There have been quite a few updates at my end over the last couple of weeks, and I am just wondering if I am doing the right things or just wasting my and everyone else's time. Let me explain...

For those who don't know, I am pre-everything, married, MtF.
First of all, with my regular therapist, I had my 6th meeting in about 7 weeks, and I think we have now reached the limit of how much she can help me on her own. I say this because she is a general therapist, not specializing in gender issues (something she herself says as well), and in our last meeting, I had to actually explain to her what exactly does HRT entail and how do some people manage to self-medicate. (No, I am not considering self-medication btw)
I do not blame her for this because this is something only trans people or those who have experience dealing with trans people would probably know.
She has been really great in helping me overcome my mental and emotional issues a few weeks ago, and I do feel that I may want to talk to her from time to time to process my thoughts around transition and my reactions to what others say (I have already started getting some comments on my appearance... more on that later), but I am not sure what more to expect.
She also understands these limitations, so she referred me to a psychiatrist within the city. I had also been looking for one in this city and a few other cities as well, but hadn't had any luck with finding someone who seemed trustworthy. Anyway, when she mentioned this psychiatrist and assured me that he's good, I decided I'll meet him.

So I met this psychiatrist today. He is also not a specialist in gender issues, though he said he has dealt with one case of gender dysphoria before.
I spoke to him for about 30-40 minutes, and when I started telling him about what I was going through, he kept stopping me and asking, "all this is fine, what is the problem?" After a few times of him asking this question, I realized that he meant to say that gender identity and whether to transition etc is a personal decision, and there is nothing he or anyone else can do to change that.
What he said he can do, is to take my complete history and look for other possible explanations such as bipolar disorder, any paraphilias etc which may be driving the gender issues.
If all such alternative explanations can be ruled out, then it is just a matter of someone taking an informed decision by themselves, and the only therapy required in such cases is if someone has a problem accepting this themselves, or has a partner or family members who need help with accepting this.
He did say, though, that being married adds another level of complexity to this situation, and the partner's acceptance in this case is crucial.
Regarding taking my history and any further therapy / counseling etc, he said I could come to him or continue with my regular therapist. I said I would prefer the regular therapist since she's geographically closer and is covered by my employer.
I am not sure what to make of all this yet. On one hand, I am happy that I met someone who seemed understanding and well-informed enough. On the other hand, if I need to get letters etc at some point later, will he be willing to write one, or will he just say that 'you don't have any problem, you didn't need any treatment for me, so what's the letter for'? I know that I am jumping the gun too much, and that I should just relax and let them figure out how they want to rule out all other explanations for my gender issues, but I still thought I'll put this out there in case someone has had a similar experience.

Besides this, I also finally found an online group of trans folks from my country and joined it. It is a very small group and mostly FtMs, but something's better than nothing. I also found the actual judgment from our Supreme Court last year regarding rights of transgenders. You can read it on http://www.supremecourtofindia.nic.in/outtoday/wc40012.pdf. It seems to be quite progressive, but I am still unclear about what it means for one's marriage, children etc if one decides to transition, and whether changing one's gender on official documents is allowed without / before SRS. They don't seem to have given much thought to the 'late onset' cases, so it's a bit vague in that respect.

Coming to my 'real-world' social circle etc, as I said, I have started getting occasional comments about my growing hair, or when I wear shorts and t-shirts (it's already the start of summer here) that show off my shaved arms and legs, or some of my mannerisms. I don't think I have actively changed my mannerisms but maybe some of them are becoming more apparent to others as I have begun to accept myself and let myself be. I still have a long way to go before I even think of coming out to others, so I need to keep an eye on what others may be noticing. Having said that, my work place is reasonably permissive about appearance, so it is not too much of a worry.

Lastly, and most important, with my wife it seems to be like we are taking really small steps forward. But it's OK, I can understand that she is having to deal with all this coming from me within a few weeks when I have myself taken years to come to terms with it. I can also understand that she has her own worries about her job, my job, our plans for a family etc and that I need to remain 'normal' at least until we have a kid. Due to all this, she is currently opposed to me undertaking any physical transition, but on the other hand, she has become more open to a few things as well. e.g. she said she is OK with me getting laser hair removal on my face, even though she was saying until a few days ago that she liked my occasional stubble. (we both knew that wasn't true ) She's also shown some interest on what goes on here at Susan's. Today, I told her after I met the psychiatrist that I had done so, and she seemed a bit upset initially, but was back to joking and talking normally in a few minutes.

So putting all of this together, I do feel that I am making some progress, and it's good that it's slow because I anyway have to wait for at least a year before I even begin considering HRT. But then at other times, I just feel that all this is going nowhere, and that others are just humoring me along and waiting for me to come out of this phase as they see it.

Sorry once again for the long post, but what do y'all think?

Well I think it is all pretty fantastic news. You should be proud of yourself for being so brave and taking the steps that you are to sort all this out.

My absolute best therapy came from, and still does, my TG support group. I've seen a TG "Friendly" generalist for several years, which was great for general baggage. After moving back with my wife I now have easy access to a Gender Therapist, and she is good, not great. Nothing like folks who have been though the mill to dump on.

In my support group in a rural area,the membership is primarily MtF with a a handful of FtM's. Our primary drive is helping to ease anyone elses pain. I hope this group you found feels the same.

My wife's "acceptance" varies. She always was accepting of the fact I had some level of GD. Dropping the T-Bomb came totally out of the blue. But she rolled with the punches. At first it was "I have no F'n idea!" to today's "At least a part-time transition is/would be nice. Unfortunately, where we live sort of precludes part-time in our close minded cross burning "Village". Her health issues and our finances precludes any quick action. Being within a 10 Min drive to NYC has it's advantages, and disadvantages.

We "Try" to play each day as it comes. For me it is incredibly difficult as an engineer looking for surety. My main focus has and always will be on the "Us". Her happiness I value above my own. She values mine above her's. It all sort of works in the end.

Thanks a lot Joanne.
Well, I now understand what others have said before that it was not bravery but desperation that drove them to do what they did. That's exactly how I feel.
I do think this is all stuff to be happy about, but the constant self-doubts in everything else also come in here and make me question whether I am just making all this up in my head, and if others are seeing it completely differently.

About the support group, well it is really small.. hardly a few messages exchanged daily. A relevant one for me may be once in a few days at best. But it's early days, and I don't feel ready yet to go to one IRL, so I am managing with this for now. And of course, being here at Susan's is the biggest help I can get.

Quote from: JoanneB on February 20, 2015, 07:53:32 PM
My main focus has and always will be on the "Us". Her happiness I value above my own. She values mine above her's. It all sort of works in the end.

That's exactly how my wife and I have always looked at everything. Hopefully it will continue to work out slowly.

One would think that more Dr.s would be familiar with GD, but that just isn't the case. When I started, there were no therapists in the area that knew anything, and I was referred to a child psychologist in spite of the fact that I was in my twenties.
He knew nothing about GD, but was willing to find out. In the end, I had to drive through three states to be evaluated by a specialist. It was a seven hour interview.
It was worth it though.

Working with a therapist who is willing to consult specialists is better than no therapist at all. That along with a support group of transgenders who have experienced the same or similar things that you have and know how you feel.

It takes guts to reveal to someone you are married to that you are a transgender. However that turns out, its better to be honest than continue living as someone you are not. I hope it works out for the both of you. Adjustment is hard, and some spouses can't deal with it, but if the marriage is a strong one, take your time and give her the opportunity to deal with it a little at a time. She may benefit from going to a support meeting with you. That way she can see that transgenders come from all walks of life and you aren't crazy.

sam1234

Quote from: sam1234 on February 21, 2015, 08:41:14 PM
Working with a therapist who is willing to consult specialists is better than no therapist at all.

Completely agree. I am really thankful to my therapist for this exact reason, that she has not only helped with what she can, but is also willing to consult specialists where she can't.

Quote from: sam1234 on February 21, 2015, 08:41:14 PM
It takes guts to reveal to someone you are married to that you are a transgender. However that turns out, its better to be honest than continue living as someone you are not. I hope it works out for the both of you. Adjustment is hard, and some spouses can't deal with it, but if the marriage is a strong one, take your time and give her the opportunity to deal with it a little at a time. She may benefit from going to a support meeting with you. That way she can see that transgenders come from all walks of life and you aren't crazy.
sam1234

Thanks, but I see my telling her too as an act of desperation more than guts. Before I told her, I was really going through a roller-coaster as far as my mental state and emotions were concerned, and was really scared that I was simply going crazy. Telling her, her positive attitude to this, and my own self-acceptance has at least given my mind a sense of stability.
I know that adjustment will be hard for both of us, but I hope that we will be able to work it out over time. Time is something I am a little ambivalent about - on one hand, I feel that I just want to go through my transition in as little time as possible, but on the other, I realize that I have constraints which stop me right now but also give me the opportunity to understand myself better and take my spouse along with me on this journey.
About other examples through a support group, well I haven't found any here yet of married folks coming out as transgender, so a real-life support group is impossible right now. But Susan's has helped here too, and her interest in knowing at least a bit about this site is a positive sign.

Not everything we do for ourselves is selfish. If living in a body that wasn't right was going to cost you your sanity or your life, it seems to me you made the right decision. There are people who go their whole lives living in the wrong body because they are terrified of what people will think or they think they are nuts. You may have been desperate, but you did have a choice and the courage to step up and make it.

sam1234

Quote from: cindy16 on February 20, 2015, 02:10:39 PM

and whether changing one's gender on official documents is allowed without / before SRS.

You can't change gender marker on official documents before SRS in this country unlike some western countries.
After SRS you can change it in every documents but not on birth certificate (as far as i know).
Btw congratulation di !!! Atleast you got a supportive wife.

@ Sam, thanks for your kind words. I hope I can maintain this courage in future. Sometimes I think about how difficult it will all be and how difficult life may become for my wife and others around me, and I feel hopeless. But coming here and getting to know others like me gives me hope again.

@ Kim, thanks for your reply. I had that doubt because I had read some interpretations of this judgment elsewhere which implied that self-identifying one's gender was going to be allowed. Anyway, it seems we are still far from that stage.

I know certain people have already changed their marker on documents after SRS but don't know about the marriage and children thing as i'm single and have not done enough research on that .

You said you are pre everything, so that is not a pic of you on your profile pic?

lol ...the girl in the pic is Natalia Tena and she was in harry potter movie and also in GoT .

@ Kim: Ya, the marriage and children thing is quite confusing because there is no recognition here of same-sex relationships, but at the same time, there are same-sex couples here who do stay together, and in some cases, raise kids together where one of the partners is a biological parent. But I haven't found an example yet of a same-sex couple where both partners are biological parents, just like Dr McGinn's example in the US.
Though, given that there has been some progress with this SC judgment last year, one can hope for more progress and maybe some clarity in the coming years.

@ misschievous: Kim has already identified correctly who is in the profile pic. One can also find that out by right-clicking and asking Google to search that image.
I cannot say that I am likely to look anything like her even if I transition, but I did relate to her character in the HP films, and this image where she is signing a book with the words "believe in magic" just felt right to me.
I'm sorry if it gives you a wrong impression of me. I am closeted to everyone else except my wife and therapist, and paranoid about being found out by people I know, so I have not uploaded my own image or mentioned any other personally identifiable details anywhere.

My "phase" seems to have lasted a lifetime and just goes by a different name now;-)

Good luck, Cindy.  I can sympathize with your situation.  I came out to my wife a few weeks back and it's tough.  I like that your wife is OK with the hair removal (as mine isn't [emoji20]).   

I do want to say you might want to discuss further with your wife having kids.    I won't discourage it (my daughter is the light of my life), but transition is tough on anybody and unless you know your wife is 100% behind being married to a woman, a child will only complicate things.   

Don't mean to sound down, just giving a transparent perspective. [emoji4]   Good luck and hugs!

@ Tessa: LOL. It's still early days for me, but I think my 'phase' is also here to stay.

@ ChiGirl: Thanks for the advice. My wife and I have discussed it already and we are both absolutely sure we want kids. She is not 100% OK with my transition, but neither am I fully sure about it. There's simply too much at stake and too much uncertainty for us here, so I am just taking small steps to see how far I can go.

Here is a blog post on that SC judgment that I have mentioned above. http://orinam.net/thoughts-supreme-court-judgment-transgender-recognition-rights/
Just as I thought, the judgment is in fact vague on the question of self-identification v/s requirement of SRS etc for legal certification of one's gender.

Hi everyone, so I am still struggling with many questions in my mind about the steps forward, it's just that now some new questions have come up. Or maybe they have just become more obvious as some older questions are getting resolved.

Until now, I had been struggling with questions like 'is this all real', 'am I fooling myself', 'is this just a phase' etc. After all these visits to my therapist, a lot of self-reflection and now hearing from a psychiatrist that except for identifying other 'disorders' or 'paraphilias' (which I am sure I don't have), there is no other way that anyone else can help me decide my gender identity, my mind is somewhat at peace. But it is also moving on to the next set of questions - Is transition possible? Or more specifically, how much and what exactly is possible? And how will it affect my marriage, career, relations with family and friends etc?

As I have mentioned above as well, I am already trying to experiment with my appearance through small, reversible changes, just to see how I feel about them and how others react to them. There is a possibility that I may suddenly start disliking long hair and get a haircut, or I may find laser hair removal too painful or I may decide that I like my stubble or beard shadow after all. None of this is true as of now, but it may be in the months to come, who knows. If that's the case, then I may conclude that my gender issues were all imaginary, or even if they are real, I am too weak to do anything about it.

But if I do go ahead with longer hair, and complete facial hair removal, then the obvious next step seems to be HRT. My wife is opposed to it right now, and if it remains this way, I may never decide to move forward. But I will try to convince her and if she does agree, then I have to consider what HRT may mean for me, and for both of us actually.

I have already said this on another thread, but I'll say it here too - I had initially thought that going for HRT without any social transition or any further steps would be the ideal thing to do, given my constraints, but I now realize that I cannot predict what changes HRT may bring. There is a possibility that my mind will react badly to HRT, so that may prove that my mind is not actually female. Or it may react nicely, but the physical changes may be very small and may allow me to hide my real self and continue living as male. Or the mental and physical changes may be big enough that I can no longer continue living as male, and that I may need to socially transition. Will I be prepared for that?

What will this social transition mean for my marriage? Even if my wife and I want to continue to be with each other, will our marriage continue to have legal recognition? In a country where same-sex sexual activity is still criminalized, and same-sex marriage is still a distant dream? But then, the marriage should be valid based on what was true at the time of the marriage, right? I don't know... our SC has been quite vague even on something obvious like whether SRS should be required or not for a legal gender change, so expecting them to be clear on this issue is too much to expect.

And what about the kid that my wife and I are planning? Will we (or I) continue to have legal recognition of parental rights? Again, something which is not legally clear here and not expected to be cleared anytime soon.

Even if at a personal level and at a legal level, everything turns out fine, what about social reactions? What about parents and other family members and friends? Sure, we could take a stance that we'll only be in touch with those who are accepting, and not care about others, but is it that simple?

And not just people close to us, what about the reactions from day-to-day interactions? When we go out together, meet people at our workplaces, when our kid has to go to school some day? I can say that I'll be strong and know how to deal with what I face, but will my wife and kid be the same? Even if they are, is it fair for me to put them through this? For their entire lives?

Talking about workplaces, can I expect to keep my current job? And not just keep it, but grow in it in the same way as I would if I continue as male? And if I have to change jobs, can I expect other prospective employers to be open-minded? Sure, discrimination has now been outlawed, but can it really be prevented in real life? How far am I ready to go to fight it if I have to?

Many of these questions are not new at all. In fact, these were precisely the things which stopped me earlier from facing up to my gender issues. But then I have seen enough examples here at Susan's and elsewhere of people who have made things work despite all these issues above. The only problem is, I have not found a single example from where I live. Yes, there are examples of other trans women here, some of them very helpful and inspiring, but none of them have this additional complexity of marriage and a different sexual orientation in addition to being trans. At least none that I know of.

I know that one possibility is to just emigrate to another, more accepting part of the world, but that's not immediately possible. But is it possible to be where I am, and still be what I want to be? I don't know...

Life often gets in the way of living.

Life always involves compromises. No plan is perfect. Adjustments are always needed. What was a non-negotiable point yesterday, may have some wiggle room today. One never knows. And you can drive yourself crazy trying to sort it all out. Believe me. I've been there way too many times. My wife's response is generally "And who made you God?" when I get into my controlling the future mindset.

I never expected to be on a feminizing dose of HRT. I never expected me to feel like I do seeing Joanne in the mirror, or walking down the street as the real me. I never expected to be totally freaked out back in December when I could not get my perscription filled. Worse was the followup when the insurance company denied the claim because a) I'm a male. Being told that flipped me out. ME! I'm not that way. Or wasn't.  I never expected myself to be fantasizing about men. Not just looking thinking he's cute.

My wife said again this weekend. Estrogen changes your brain. SHe doesn't know the full extent. It does. After 5 years of it for sure, even for me. About as thick headed of a person as there ever was, according to my mom. I still hope to keep treading water, living as a male, untill all my obligations are discharged. Financial as well as moral obligations. Where or how I'll fit into a future with my wife, I cannot be sure. She sure as hell didn't sign up for this ride.

It's one day at a time, with some nearish term way point on the chart we're steering for. An infamous "Five Year Plan". I hope John can make. Some days it's close. Today as for the past nearly two weeks, I am just numb. After being all dressed for my one and only night out for my TG Group meeting, I couldn't go because of the weather. One minute I was looking at a fairly good looking woman in the mirror. The next, just a sad beaten old man. My poor Teddy Bear needed a rain coat that night.  Since then, Just numb and devoid of feeling. Too much pain? I don't know.

What I do know is What Does Not Work. I have a good 40+ years of experience doing that. What I am doing today may not be perfect. It may not be what I wanted of my life. I do know it is working. My true joy does lie with being Joanne. I also know being her, all the time may come at a cost I am unwilling to take on.... today. Well, TBH, a ton of other things I am doing today carried a lot of risk. Still does.

You never what may work untill you experiment with it. The one guarantee you have is Zero Success if make zero effort. In your own life you know what is sort of working so far. You know what totally isn't working. Within those two groups I am sure there are opportunities for minor changes, to get things working better as well as to get rid of few things making things run worse.

Sure long hair is a PITA. Ask any woman with it. Few would welcome a pixie cut. Laser can be painful. But no where near as much as electrolysis and goes a LOT faster. No do-overs but besides your wife's love of stubble, did you ever like it? Isn't shaving once or twice a day a hassle? Low dose E can let you dip your toes in the water. If Androcur is an option for you as an AA, it is a KICK ASS AA. In a week or so you'll know what it's like to have Low T and then some. Test drive that for a while before E.

Just as gender is an infinite spectrum between cis-female and cis-male, so are the various ways of managing the dysphoria. Everyones path is different, yet can have similarities. Yours will be different from mine as mine is different from all the other womens in my group.

You do have many seemingly conflicting desires. Some may never be realized because of the inherent conflicts. Plus a lot rides ,not just on your own actions, but those of your wife, and all the people in her life that may influence her. Things far outside of your control. You can't put the Genie back into the bottle. What has been said and done cannot be taken back. My wife many times threaten me with the proverbial  bat across the side of the head when say something stupid like "I can stop". There is no stopping. Only through the sheer force of will go back to suppression. Which even that is a long shot now that I have achieved my life long dream of being seen as accepted as a woman, to some extent. I don't see me suppressing that memory any time soon, if ever. She sure does not want to see me turn back into that miserable unhappy angry wretch I turned into, any more then she wants to find me hinging from a rafter in the garage. Both would be the likely outcome of "Stopping"

Thanks for your reply Joanne.
I do know that not all of my conflicting desires can be fulfilled, but I have to figure out which ones are most important to me, and to what extent can I work towards them.

About estrogen changing the brain, that's another reason why I realized HRT without social transition may not turn out to be as easy as I think.

About long hair or other cosmetic stuff, I think right now it is just one of a few straws of stereotypical femininity I am clinging to. If a day comes when I can pass as and be accepted as female no matter what my hair looks like, I may be able to decide what hairstyle I really want.

I think I am going to use this thread from now on to share updates about myself.

Just to consolidate everything in one place, here are the other threads with my questions or information so far, in chronological order:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,180550.0.html
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,180651.0.html
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,180856.0.html
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,181374.0.html
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,182462.0.html

And now for the updates since my last post on this thread.
Firstly, my wife who had until now been talking to me about my gender issues, what I post here at Susan's, and about trans people in general in a relatively superficial way, finally showed some more interest. We saw a documentary together which I thought would be interesting for her to watch even keeping the trans issue aside, and even though the cultural setting of that documentary was very different from ours, just watching firsthand how someone actually went through a similar struggle probably made her realize better what I was going through.
She then told me if transitioning is something I really need to do, I should do it, but then it may be difficult for us to be together. Also that I should come out to my parents about this.
I refused on both counts.. I said I really want to be with her and that's my top priority, and that I can't afford to come out to my parents right now.
Finally, we have agreed that we will continue taking small steps forward and see where it leads us, but I am also realizing that I can't bind her in a catch-22 situation forever, but will have to let her make her own choice.

I also met my therapist, spoke about the suicidal thoughts that had been cropping up in my head, and also about how I am trying to balance my thoughts about transitioning, about how important my marriage is to me, and how/when I plan to come out to others. She eventually led me to the realization that the only way out of suicidal thoughts is to have something more positive to replace it, that I can do my best regarding my marriage but still leave it to my wife to make her own choice, and about others, I can decide how best to come out to them and try to preserve as much of my current life as possible, but also be prepared for losses / compromises on the social / professional front. I think I just need to set some of these priorities straight and only then I'll be able to see what is the best way forward. Perhaps the answer is in understanding how I really feel about each of these things rather than trying to rationalize them.

Meanwhile, I have found out about more examples from my country which are even more similar to my situation than others I had found before, except that I still haven't found anyone here who has gone through trying to save a marriage while transitioning.

Anyway, I guess for the moment, it is just about continuing with small steps and seeing how it goes.