I think there is really some truth in Jaimey's and Seshatneferw's theories on childishness.

I feel I took a long time to 'mature'. While other people seemed to know about growing up and what to do next I was stuck in child mode. My theory is this is more to do with not having a rolemodel. Even though I did not know what I was as a child I still did not have anyone I could grow up to be like. There was no group to emulate. Finding your own path takes longer than following a well forged one.

I think I am definitly sensitive to mood too. I'm sometimes get frustrated when others can't tell how I am feeling when I can read their moods so easily. Perhaps I'm just good at hiding it.

I'm down with the list, except for the hating dress codes.

I hate any standard that insists that people behave or dress differently because of their sex. Such standards are clearly bigotry. Even if everybody in the world was cisgendered, such codes would be offensive. Having different sets of rules for different people is never fair, and we as a culture have gone over that repeatedly with the 'separate but equal' racially segregated lunch-counter bathroom, etc. thing.

But dress codes in themselves are not offensive. In fact, I firmly believe that all schoolchildren should be wearing gender-neutral uniforms, right up to their first year of college. The point of this would be to encourage them to express their individuality.

Yeah, yeah, before hordes of kids arrive to set me on fire while screaming that the reason they object to uniforms is that the uniforms don't let them express their individuality, I'd like to point out that it only takes an hour or two to of study for anybody to be able to look at some kid's school-clothes outfit, laid out and empty of the kid, and determine with at least 80% accuracy the kid's parent's tax-bracket and the kid's skin colour or the skin colour of his or her favourite celebrity athlete or musical performer. That being the case, I cry "what a crock!" for clearly what is being expressed is not individuality but social class divisions.

Heck, I, and most Americans of my age, remember when we were eight and ten years old, being oppressed by the 'Izod' crocodile logo, which was considered cool, but off-label clothing of identical designs without the little crocodile was anti-cool. This kind of rubbish should be nipped in the bud.

Quote from: NickSister on November 08, 2007, 01:35:58 PM
I think there is really some truth in Jaimey's and Seshatneferw's theories on childishness.

I feel I took a long time to 'mature'. While other people seemed to know about growing up and what to do next I was stuck in child mode. My theory is this is more to do with not having a rolemodel. Even though I did not know what I was as a child I still did not have anyone I could grow up to be like. There was no group to emulate. Finding your own path takes longer than following a well forged one.

I think I am definitly sensitive to mood too. I'm sometimes get frustrated when others can't tell how I am feeling when I can read their moods so easily. Perhaps I'm just good at hiding it.

I can relate strongly to not having a role model.

I can remember ever so specifically, English class and having to write a paper on who my hero was...no fictional people allowed of course. For five or six years in a row from Elementary school through Middle School I had to write that paper...except I wrote about how I had no hero. Then got a poor grade for not following the assignment guidelines.

Interchanging hero and role model there but same difference in my opinion. Who did I want to be like, who was someone I could hope to be like. My point of view was that I could see this trait in my father which was good, a trait of my sister, or this other trait in my cousin. Never did I see a person who, as a whole, I would want to emulate and become. I think I took the pieces to forge my own path, my own twisted, painful, but fantastic path!

me too on the role model thing.   No role model.

(no more heroes any more, no more heroes any more)

I had to write about my hero, there were lots of people who have done good things, but my heroes were always fictional.

I didn't have a role model either.  I was also caught between really young parents and my grandparents, so that definitely caused some confusion. 

I'm also sensitive. I don't get overwhelmed by other peoples' emotions, but I am much more sensitive to tone of voice and things like that.  I also feel that I am an excellent judge of character.  I feel like I can see traits in people that others don't see.  I'm almost certain is has to do with the child-like factor that many of us seem to have, but again, the question is "is because I'm androgyne, or is it a psychological/emotional reaction to my environment?"

The psyche is pretty fascinating...

Maybe a role model would have helped me throw off my assumptions and understand things sooner.  Since understanding the whole androgyne thing I guess I've found role models in anime.

I don't think that explains the child-like thing.  (I definitely identify with that, BTW.  I'm sensible and disciplined with money and everything but I love to jump in elevators, slide down banisters, skim pebbles and be generally playful sometimes.  I also get a child-like fascination with the world sometimes, which is why I do science.)

Another theory is that it's nostalgia to do with the innate androgyny of children.  I'm not sure about that either.  Okay, I have looked at photos of myself at 15 before and thought it would be nice to have that cuter, rounder face again but otherwise I'm happy to be "grown up" in my own way.

Some biologists think that dogs are kind of like wolves that never exactly grow up.  Dogs aren't puppies, they're grown up, but in many ways they're like young wolves.  Maybe some kinds of androgyny are like that - growing up and growing wiser and more sensible, but not losing a kind of child-like quality.  I don't know.  Thoughts?

(FTR, I'm currently 20.  Many people my age revert to childishness but I think that's different.  That's definitely nostalgic - watching the kids' shows of 15 years before, etc - but I'm not.  Nor do I have affected or exaggerated childishness.)

openness may be a better term maybe?

In the sense of being open-minded or open to new ideas, sure. Not necessarily 'open' in the sense of being ready to share one's feelings -- I'm pretty introverted in that sense, and from what I've read that's a personality trait that often results from growing up with GID.

  Nfr

But i meant more open-ness as in the world flooding in a bit strong, a little bit of hypersensitivity, wounding easyish...that sort of thing.

I would like to clarify that there is a difference between childish and childlike, just so we're all clear on the terminology.  Childishness, of course, is referring to more 'bratty' types of behavior, severe immaturity, etc.  We are all functioning adults.  That's not to say we're never childish...I definitely have my moments, but so does everyone else, androgyne or not.   

I do think that we seem to share a childlike approach to the world.  I can understand what Pica means by openness (with the clarification...thanks!).  Also, I have considered what Simon said about children being androgynous.  One of my professors brought up the point that small children do not realize that they can't be a boy or a girl whenever they want, i.e., a little boy might play dress up one minute and then play in a fort or something the next and vice versa, without ever realizing that according to society, little boys "shouldn't" play dress up and little girls "shouldn't" play in the mud.  I have often wondered if that is a factor in our childlike natures.

I would describe childlike as bright-eyed, having childlike wonder, wanting to please (especially trying to fit our bodies), having a child's love, inherently kind, playful, easily hurt, etc.  Now that I'm trying to think of words, I can't.  Stupid brain.  :p

Quote from: Simon on November 11, 2007, 07:08:03 PM
Some biologists think that dogs are kind of like wolves that never exactly grow up.  Dogs aren't puppies, they're grown up, but in many ways they're like young wolves.  Maybe some kinds of androgyny are like that - growing up and growing wiser and more sensible, but not losing a kind of child-like quality.  I don't know.  Thoughts?

That's an interesting thought. The term for adults retaining juvenile characteristics is 'neotony' and it's generally accepted that dogs are essentially neotonous wolves. It is visible in their bones and the proportions of their faces. It's also extremely visible in their behavior, if you've ever had a chance to compare them to wolves -- most dogs spend their entire lives friendly, curious, playful and adaptable as young wolves, but real wolves grow up to be far more shy and suspicious and uncomfortable with new things than any but a very troubled nervous dog.

Humans have a number of neotonous traits when compared to great apes, and insofar as comparison is possible, with extinct proto-humans. We've got flat faces and big round skulls with thin bones, delicate skin, very little hair, pathetic teeth spaced closely together without pronounced canines, a prolonged infancy and childhood. We also remain playful, curious and adaptable for life, mostly. Supposedly we are set up for lifelong learning in a way that surpasses the powers of other animals. It is thought that these child-like characteristics, especially the behavioral and learning-related ones, are responsible for humans being such clever beasts, and such a great success. There's also a theory that a single mutation that halted development at a juvenile place is responsible for a wide array of morphological changes that distinguish humans from earlier hominids. If that's true, it might explain why the fossil record appears (at least to some) to lack appropriate intermediate stages between humans and early hominids.

Wouldn't proposing that an androgyne person typically retains childlike traits imply that someone who fits more into the gender binary does not typically retain childlike traits?

Hi NickSister seen you around but I don't think we connected yet.

Yeah, well I guess I'm hopeless. I am 62 and still feel like a kid and don't really have any notions of growing up much more any time soon. But I respect other peoples, feelings, emotions and thoughts. I am quite in-tune with life around me. I am an empath as well as gender dysphoric or an androgyne, although I have been living as a girl for 7 years, inside I don't really identify as either or it just isn't of a vital importance to me. But that's ok I am quite comfortable with my gender identity by choice.

Oh I had role models, really wonderful loving parents but somehow it appears I missed the point somewhere. I had a closer association with my mother, so who knows. You speak of feeling the feelings and  sensitivities of others, would you be an empath perhaps? Ye all we need is another label huh. No need to answer that question.

Cindy   

Posted on: November 14, 2007, 04:27:08 PM

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Hi Pica Pica

I really enjoyed your you tube video, it appears that you are a fun loving person.
I do my best to be fun loving as well, sometimes I wonder how my mate Wing Walker can keep up to me. 

Cindy

Posted on: November 14, 2007, 04:32:28 PM

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Hi Jaimey

I love your description of childlike. I believe I am going to like this group.

Cindy

Hey Cindy,

I did have role models too, but I don't think I had any appropriate gender role models. Just wondered if not having a good androgyne role model to identify with has really affected my development into an adult androgyne?

Not sure about being an empath - what is this exactly? I used to think everyone could read emotion as well, or was as sensitive to others moods, but it does not seem to be the case. I definitely feel it. It can be stifling, often I can't switch it off. It is terrible when my wife's depression is bad, I feel like I am spiralling down too and often need time out to recover myself after she has gotten better. Slowly developing ways to cope with this though.

Would love to chat more, but have to catch a meeting.

Hi NickSister

I really don't know why I grew up to be who I am except that I was sensitive to other peoples energy and I did a lot of drifting about after I split with the last partner I was with. Now I have Wing Walker who likes to drift as well as I do, so that's ok.

As for Empathy here is an article that you may read if you so desire to.

We all receive and send feelings which influence us and others.
Empaths learn more emotions and utilize feelings better as we
develop. Most of this learning is natural but an empath may need more
to be fulfilled. Learning requires evaluation and implementation of
improvements.

An empath is an active and radiating influence. As empaths, we
influence with fields of energy. The effects are over an area and not
at a specific point. These radiance's affect us as well as others and
linger for some duration.

Here is a link with more information on empathy

http://www.moonchildpn.org/Empaths.html

Cindy

You know, I had always thought that I was, more or less, the only person who exhibited all of these traits (minus empathy) at once.

I've also been off-and-on identifying as androgynous for a while now. =/

This has been very interesting and helpful to me.

"Wow!" I don't believe this, a roomful of empaths! I really don't know what else to add right now but I just wish I could hug all of you guys. Second biggest surprise from this group i the past 4 days I been around here.

Cindy

Quote from: Patroklos on November 15, 2007, 03:14:16 PM
You know, I had always thought that I was, more or less, the only person who exhibited all of these traits (minus empathy) at once.

I've also been off-and-on identifying as androgynous for a while now. =/

This has been very interesting and helpful to me.

Glad it helps.

There does seem to be things we share, gives us some legitimacy also.

Quote from: Id Est on November 12, 2007, 10:20:27 PM
Wouldn't proposing that an androgyne person typically retains childlike traits imply that someone who fits more into the gender binary does not typically retain childlike traits?

It's an interesting theory, one I've explored myself.  There really needs to be some research on our gender identity.  My biggest question is "are we childlike because we are androgyne or do we retain childlike qualities as a reaction to society's pressures, i.e., do we not mature the same way because we are trying to fit a mold instead of nurturing who we are?" 

Maybe we should just storm some poor unsuspecting gender studies professor's office and refuse to leave until some research is done.  Could be fun... >

(I'm so glad we can edit these posts...my typing/wording mistakes are horrifying...)



Posted on: November 17, 2007, 06:31:12 PM

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I have a question.  Do you all tend to be self deprecating?

I made a self deprecating joke a few weeks ago and the girl I was with said, "why would you say that about yourself?"  I was really taken aback and I wondered if that sort of humor is actually bad for one's self esteem.  I know why I'm self deprecating, I just didn't realize that I shouldn't be (if I shouldn't be...I don't think I can change that at this point in my life). 

Anyway, I was just curious.  I'm not suggesting that self deprecation is trait caused by being androgyne, but that it is possibly a trait common among androgyne people that we develop because of shame/self loathing/societal pressure/etc.