Quote from: Kate on November 13, 2007, 02:11:45 PM

Quote from: Steph on November 13, 2007, 12:21:36 PM
I personally believe that folks need to concentrate less on being transsexual and more on being a woman/man ...

... I think that it's exactly when people DO focus on "being a woman" that we end up with stereotypes and caricatures...

~Kate~

Only when they are obviously not and try to re-invent, re-define, re-model, and re-whatever else a woman is so that they are comfortable with what they are.  I would also say that this type of person is not TS either but something else.  If you have been diagnosed with GID then then you are obviously either a man or a woman, and therefore one should concentrate on living accordingly.

Yep I'm a strong believer in there only being two genders, heresy to some but for me it's what I believe.

Steph 

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 13, 2007, 03:19:24 AM

QuoteWhat is the point in looking 'feminine' and sexy for other women (or men, or anyone else)?  Do it for YOU.

I do do it for me but I also do it to attract potential mates, female and male as well as being seen as an attractive person (in my case, a woman) by society as a whole. As well, physical attraction is only a part of it. Of course, the ugly people are going to whine about why physical attraction even matters. Well, it shouldn't but it does.

Tough.

Women care about being feminine (and therefore, pretty) for many reasons - every reason. They want to like what they see in the mirror, they like to turn men's heads, and for other women. Women care more how other women look than men care how women look.
And all that IS doing it for themselves.

"Personally my dear, I don't give a damn."

Well everything that has been discussed on this list thus far is nothing new to me, but the same old, same old. I am who I am and have lived as her for 7 years and I didn't even get a hero biscuit left on my pillow by the Transsexual Fairy, either. I haven't given a thought to who I was before, except an occasional thought about my roots.

Well at least I seldom did,  until I came back here to this list. Hmmmmm, nothing has changed much except that most of the TS students are much younger than back 8 years ago, and in my opinion, I say that this is good, actually, better than good. it is is excellent to see that these young individuals will someday integrate and live a full life as their true selves in society. A wonderful, humble, new beginning and much longer opportunity to experience and enjoy their new lives. 

Yes, enjoy, get on with it and live as you. There is no law against enjoying your new life. So many more wonderful years to look forward to, well, a lot more then us old bats do anyway.

It was both a case of curiosity and an opportunity to learn more about the Transsexual phenomena and maybe give a little support where and when it is needed were my only intentions. I do see, though, that this list still contains a few of the same demons that used to plague it the last time I was here 8 years ago. That would be psychological demons I would be speaking about, to be sure.

Prior to my retirement two years ago, I worked as a social worker and I worked *as my true self*for 7 years. Why would I want to come back here after 7 years? It was for the simple reason that I stumbled across the link to this list and  was bored out of my gourd and then curiosity set in.

There is also the fact I have a possible position as a volunteer support worker at an outreach center for Transsexuals here In Vancouver. That's it. Simple as that. I have no interest in getting into any petty arguments about the dissection and analysis of the female anatomy or psychology and the difference in mental processes between the female and male brain to find out what makes a woman tick as a woman. As interesting as the science was, I do not believe it makes up the complete character. I do believe that much of the behavioral part is hereditary and if one has a predisposed mind towards the feminine, some of these traits do come to the surface. I am  here only with the desire to learn how we got there.

Cindy   

Hi Tink!!!

I think it is the height of misogynism to promote the idea that there is something artificial about women flouting their femininity or it is some kind of male construct. I do object to objectification and using femininity to sell beer. I also object to the idea that trans women typically over-feminize themselves. That is all we see in the media. Always showing us putting on lipstick or nylons. But trying to tell trans women that there is something wrong with wanting to glamourize themselves is transphobic and trans-misogynistic.

Quote from: Steph on November 13, 2007, 03:04:04 PM
If you have been diagnosed with GID then then you are obviously either a man or a woman, and therefore one should concentrate on living accordingly.

That's funny.  I've been diagnosed with GID by a gender specialist that's totally aware of my non-binary gender identity and is allowing me to pursue a non-binary transition path.

Mind you, I don't exist, so this post is obviously a figment of your imagination.

Yay for medical professionals who aren't bigots. 

Quote from: Kate on November 13, 2007, 02:11:45 PM
Or... maybe just focus more on being themselves, and let the chips fall where they may? I figure I'm Kate first, who *incidentally* also happens to be a woman. I think that it's exactly when people DO focus on "being a woman" that we end up with stereotypes and caricatures...

~Kate~

One of the most intelligent things said in this thread.  It's always best to just be yourself and let the pieces fall where they may.

Quote from: Steph on November 13, 2007, 03:04:04 PM
Only when they are obviously not and try to re-invent, re-define, re-model, and re-whatever else a woman is so that they are comfortable with what they are.  I would also say that this type of person is not TS either but something else.  If you have been diagnosed with GID then then you are obviously either a man or a woman, and therefore one should concentrate on living accordingly.

Yep I'm a strong believer in there only being two genders, heresy to some but for me it's what I believe.

Steph 

So ....  This Section is just there for decoration?    Me thinks the word 'obviously' doesn't mean what you think it means. 

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 13, 2007, 04:54:55 PM
Hi Tink!!!

Hi hon!  Were you referring to me or to Cindybc?

Regarding stereotypes...well, first off people should speak for themselves and not for everyone else.  I'm NOT feminine to conform to any stereotype; I guess you could say that it is just how I naturally am.  I've been very feminine (note what I say...feminine not effeminate...there is a difference  ) since I can remember.  I have never tried to conform to any stereotype at all, I just fall into it perfectly without trying; that's who I am, who I have always been; I don't imitate how women behave.  That's why I usually say that I am just a girl like the zillions of others who were born with XX chromosomes and the right set of genitals.  Incidentally, I am not bragging either.  There are five people from this website who know me personally; they have seen me face to face, so they can tell you.

Now as far as being your "own woman"....well... in the past I used to know a few people who had that philosophy about "things".  They claimed they were "their own woman" and acted as such (i.e, they wouldn't do anything to improve their male voice, they didn't care about facial hair removal, etc).  However, they were the ones who always moaned and cried when society didn't perceive them or accept them as the women they said they were.  So you see, the bottom line is this, if you can pull that off (the "my own woman stuff", that is), I applaud you and kuddos to you.  But please do not complain when society doesn't accept you as "your own woman".

Quote from: Steph on November 13, 2007, 12:21:36 PM
My transsexuality was simply the journey, it's my womanhood that counts and this woman does not have a dick. 
Steph

Exactly.  And for the record, this fairy doesn't have *one of those* either!

tink

[/quote]
One of the most intelligent things said in this thread.  It's always best to just be yourself and let the pieces fall where they may.[/quote]

Stating be yourself is not exactly deeply profound. It should even have to be said, in fact. It is a given.

Quote from: Steph on November 13, 2007, 03:04:04 PM
Only when they are obviously not and try to re-invent, re-define, re-model, and re-whatever else a woman is so that they are comfortable with what they are.  I would also say that this type of person is not TS either but something else.  If you have been diagnosed with GID then then you are obviously either a man or a woman, and therefore one should concentrate on living accordingly.

Yep I'm a strong believer in there only being two genders, heresy to some but for me it's what I believe.

Steph 

So ....  This Section is just there for decoration?    Me thinks the word 'obviously' doesn't mean what you think it means. 
[/quote]

Androgyne is not a gender IMNSHO. If you want to consider androgynes  a third gender and you are one be my guest but please do not try to lump trans women into that third gender. We are women.
By definition, androgynes are not MALE TO FEMALE Transsexuals. Whatever, androgynes are they are quite different from your garden variety trans woman.

Posted on: November 13, 2007, 08:50:57 PM

---

Hi Tink!

Tink wrote:

QuoteThey claimed they were "their own woman" and acted as such (i.e, they wouldn't do anything to improve their male voice, they didn't care about facial hair removal, etc).  However, they were the ones who always moaned and cried when society didn't perceive them or accept them as the women they said they were.

That sounds like a gender queer which is fine. If one wants to be gender queer, have a ball. But don't also claim that you are a transsexual woman.

Quote from: Tink on November 13, 2007, 07:28:32 PM
Exactly.  And for the record, this fairy doesn't have *one of those* either!
tink

Well that's the point isn't it?  Not having *one of those* did not make you a woman.  Surgery just allowed your body to match the true you.  Some women are not able to be at that point (yet).

Kristi

I believe this is one post that made the most sense on this thread.

QuoteMy transsexuality was simply the journey, it's my womanhood that counts and this woman does not have a dick.
Steph

Nope, and neither does the fairy.



Cindy

Posted on: November 13, 2007, 09:20:04 PM

---

Ok sorry, how about aliens. I like aliens to.



How about Jar Jar Binks. I like him, hes my best friend.



Cindy 

Posted on: November 13, 2007, 09:56:22 PM

---

This was Just an interlude, you may now continue on with subject at hand, thank you.

Cindy

Before anyone gets their knickers in a knot...  And I'll be blunt.

Quote from: Steph on November 13, 2007, 03:04:04 PM

Quote from: Kate on November 13, 2007, 02:11:45 PM

Quote from: Steph on November 13, 2007, 12:21:36 PM
I personally believe that folks need to concentrate less on being transsexual and more on being a woman/man ...

... I think that it's exactly when people DO focus on "being a woman" that we end up with stereotypes and caricatures...

~Kate~

Only when they are obviously not and try to re-invent, re-define, re-model, and re-whatever else a woman is so that they are comfortable with what they are.  I would also say that this type of person is not TS either but something else.  If you have been diagnosed with GID then then you are obviously either a man or a woman, and therefore one should concentrate on living accordingly.

Yep I'm a strong believer in there only being two genders, heresy to some but for me it's what I believe.

Steph 

Nowhere in my post did mention any group, androgyne or otherwise.  Too often we get folks who join the site and immediately try to redefine what women or men are to fit their own purpose and then expect everyone else to accept them as a man or woman.  Note that I said man or woman, not androgyne.  I also did not say that someone was a figment of anyones imagination nor did I say that androgynes are here for decoration.  in fact when the issue of creating a forum for androgynes was being discussed by staff I was one of those who recommended it.

I hold firm to my belief that there a two genders - male and female - if it ruffles feathers then I apologize as I  believe that everyone has the right to be who or what they believe themselves to be, there are sjust ome things in this world that I hold true just like I do not believe in any form of a god.  Just my opinion is all.

Steph 

Quote from: Steph on November 13, 2007, 10:15:23 PM

Nowhere in my post did mention any group, androgyne or otherwise.  Too often we get folks who join the site and immediately try to redefine what women or men are to fit their own purpose and then expect everyone else to accept them as a man or woman.  Note that I said man or woman, not androgyne.  I also did not say that someone was a figment of anyones imagination nor did I say that androgynes are here for decoration.  in fact when the issue of creating a forum for androgynes was being discussed by staff I was one of those who recommended it.

You did however imply that non-binary identified people "obviously" couldn't have GID, which is rather offensive to those of us that have suffered (or are suffering) from it.

Quote from: Rachael on November 13, 2007, 11:23:00 AM
what beliegh tactfully misses out, is those were m2fs
R

Many years ago, I ran in to someone once that I thought was just starting out, pre-HRT, pre-everything only to find out they'd been post op for several YEARS.

OMG...

Posted on: November 14, 2007, 04:26:32 AM

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Quote from: Kate on November 13, 2007, 02:11:45 PM

Or... maybe just focus more on being themselves, and let the chips fall where they may? I figure I'm Kate first, who *incidentally* also happens to be a woman. I think that it's exactly when people DO focus on "being a woman" that we end up with stereotypes and caricatures...

~Kate~

If this makes sense, I think on a lot of levels, we are who we were meant to be.  Like Kate was saying, basing passing on achieving all the stereotypes is the fastest way to do just the opposite - not pass.

I thought this whole thing was about being yourself.  I'm a big talker since I'm not full time, but passing for me is just being able to exist in a way that makes me happy.  If I can go unnoticed, I'll be satisfied with that.

Quote from: Andra on November 14, 2007, 03:25:06 AM

Quote from: Steph on November 13, 2007, 10:15:23 PM

Nowhere in my post did mention any group, androgyne or otherwise.  Too often we get folks who join the site and immediately try to redefine what women or men are to fit their own purpose and then expect everyone else to accept them as a man or woman.  Note that I said man or woman, not androgyne.  I also did not say that someone was a figment of anyones imagination nor did I say that androgynes are here for decoration.  in fact when the issue of creating a forum for androgynes was being discussed by staff I was one of those who recommended it.

You did however imply that non-binary identified people "obviously" couldn't have GID, which is rather offensive to those of us that have suffered (or are suffering) from it.

Er I did not imply anything.  I said that "...If you have been diagnosed with GID then then you are obviously either a man or a woman."  No implications there as I believe there are only two genders.

Steph

Hi I had a post here I just deleted, the problem has been rectified. The blue sky witch rides her broom once more into the setting sun in the western sky.

Cindy 

Quote from: Steph on November 14, 2007, 04:20:28 AM

Er I did not imply anything.  I said that "...If you have been diagnosed with GID then then you are obviously either a man or a woman."  No implications there as I believe there are only two genders.

Steph

Fair point.  Shall I then interpret your post as meaning that you think I'm crazy and misguided?

Quote from: Andra on November 14, 2007, 04:23:42 AM

Quote from: Steph on November 14, 2007, 04:20:28 AM

Er I did not imply anything.  I said that "...If you have been diagnosed with GID then then you are obviously either a man or a woman."  No implications there as I believe there are only two genders.

Steph

Fair point.  Shall I then interpret your post as meaning that you think I'm crazy and misguided?

Personally, in my mind is that there are two points on a line and there are many steps in between both of them.

I am an androgyne. And i would love to live in a world without gender, I dislike the gender binary, it's pointless, and in my travels i have seen more than just man or woman.

I present as female, as for me it's better than been male, picked one of the two, for me it's a happy place, and socially it's easier. and not matter what i do my body will never be female, it will always be sorta half way, and i'm happy with that.

~I.V.

Quote from: Andra on November 14, 2007, 04:23:42 AM

Quote from: Steph on November 14, 2007, 04:20:28 AM

Er I did not imply anything.  I said that "...If you have been diagnosed with GID then then you are obviously either a man or a woman."  No implications there as I believe there are only two genders.

Steph

Steph

Fair point.  Shall I then interpret your post as meaning that you think I'm crazy and misguided?

Again I have not said anywhere that anyone who does not believe that there are only two genders are crazy or misguided.  However readers are certainly free to interpret anything that is written in these forums.   We all have beliefs that we hold true.  Just as christians believe in a god of some kind, I do not.  I don't think those people are crazy or misguided, just as I do not think that androgynes are crazy or missguided, for who is to say that I'm right, and for that matter who is to say that I'm not.  I'm simply stating my beliefs.

Steph

GID simply says you have dysphoria with your present physical gender, NOT what the other is.... and quoting yourself when wrong isnt going to change that...
R

Quote
No not at all.  We all have beliefs that we hold true.  Just as christians believe in a god of some kind, I do not.  I don't think they are crazy or misguided, for who is to say that I'm right.  I'm simply stating my beliefs.

But what you are saying is you don't believe we're real.

Which is your prerogative, you're allowed to believe what you want.

But it stings to be told by an administrator of a transgendered support website that your gender identity doesn't exist...  thats all...

Posted on: November 14, 2007, 06:25:26 AM

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Quote from: Rachael on November 14, 2007, 05:21:17 AM
GID simply says you have dysphoria with your present physical gender, NOT what the other is.... and quoting yourself when wrong isnt going to change that...
R

Sharpness aside, Rachael has a good point that GID is just dysphoria with your present physical (sex )