Sorry for taking the other thread off topic, but I was very interested in hearing everyone's views on this so if you want to continue it here, I would love to hear more about perspectives different than mine.

Dangerous topic here, there are strong opinions on either side. Lets hope that people keep it civil.

100% for gun rights, I love guns. I had a Hunting/Shooting topic going at one point but it's gone.

Hugs, Devlyn

I do believe it's fine to have firearms handy.  It's certainly better to have a gun and not need one than need a gun and not have one.  I was once a member of the NRA and have handled firearms of all descriptions at one time or another.

That being said, I do find the second amendment a bit vague.   At the time it was written, "arms" meant single-shot muzzle-loading weapons.  It could be construed now to mean "surface-to-air" missiles, military grade weapons or even WMDs, depending on whom you ask.   It is not clear where the line was meant to be drawn, despite US v. Miller (1939) and other rulings.

There are most definitely people who should not have guns under any circumstances, but legislating that has proven difficult, if not impossible.  If someone REALLY wants a gun, they most definitely will be able to obtain one illegally.  It's not exactly rocket science.  Fifty bucks will get you a weapon with no serial number every day of the week.  I'm guessing that getting caught with one is the least of the perp's worries.

I am not anti-gun. I do not own guns, and don't have a desire to.  I voted for conceal carry when it was up for a vote here because I felt like there were reasonable requirements involved to obtain a permit, and I support personal liberty as much as I feel I can.

I was obviously being facetious when I said that people could carry anything anywhere, but it does feel that way here sometimes.  When a drug dealer in Missouri can claim that he needs a firearm for protection on his "job", and his possession charges are dismissed because he is only a felon, but not a violent felon yet, it just feels like we have gone too far in the opposite direction.  The authors of the amendment have admitted that they didn't intend for these challenges to happen, but why not? If any rule is an infringement then why would it be wrong for a violent felon to own and carry a weapon.

I hope it stays civil too, because I am very interested in hearing other points of views, and I know how quickly these topics can get locked.  I think if people just stay away from personal attacks, it could be productive.

When my children were very small we were dirt poor and if it wasn't for me being able to take my rifle out just around dawn a couple of times a week we wouldn't have done as well as we did.  I owned a Swedish Mauser made in 1900 and it was a beautifully engineered rifle that did exactly what I needed it to.  Then when I looked in the mirror one morning and suddenly knew who I really was and shortly afterwards started HRT it was like a switch clicked over in my head and I could no longer kill anything anymore.  I sold my rifle and handed in my firearms licence and that was that.

I am in Missouri.  I have guns in my house and I carry a gun in my vehicle.  My kids are in high school and college and they have never messed with my guns without me.  I have raised them to know how to handle guns safely and respect them.  I live in the country, not St. Louis, so my perspective is probably a stark contrast to yours, Kylie.  However, I have said it before on this forum: I grew up in Flint, MI and it had a higher murder rate that your neighbor to the east (E. St. L.).  Didn't feel a need for a gun there.  Out in the country I am miles from police/sheriff/HP and we are the first line of defense.  Broad sweeping gun control is not the answer, IMHO.  Someone always loses on either end of 'no control' or 'strict control'.  Punishing the masses for a few is something I loathe.  I thinks some regulation is needed, of course, but I do not find Missouri to be so violent.  And yes, I lived in St. Louis (met my wife there. ), and I found it to be like any other city: full of good and bad people.  Why punish the good?

Hi y'all

This is a complicated topic for Europeans to understand.  In most countries in Western Europe private citizens cannot carry guns.  The only exceptions are for hunting, and there are fairly strict controls over all aspects of hunting weapons.

I know that the US Constitution enshrines a right to bear arms, and it's an important document - a cornerstone of democracy.  This said, many people in my part of the world totally don't understand why this is viewed as so fundamentally important in the USA:  what we see is a lot of gun crime, and a frequent question is whether this could be reduced somehow by reducing the ease of access to weapons.  But since it's in the Constitution, this isn't easy to achieve.

I grew up in a country where my ID document had 10 pages for gun licenses, and people spent all day shooting at each other.  I used to make bullets and go target shooting with my dad, but my view is that giving civilians the right to bear arms unfortunately brings major repercussions.

Julia

I'm a pro-freedom (for humans that is) kind of cat. One of those freedoms is the ability to use tools for self defense (guns included). The kicker is that freedom is the ability to choose (actions that hopefully don't infringe on the rights of others).

It's not a judgment if one prefers to own and use small arms (handguns or rifles or shotguns) or if one does not want to own small arms. Criminal use is criminal no matter what part of the world one lives in and laws aren't going to stop someone who has decided beforehand that they supposedly deserve something the victim has (or to inflict harm on the intended victim).

The only thing my "assault rifle" (sic) has done to anybody is assault my bank account and I intend to keep it that way unless a criminal decides they think their spechul snowflake status is more important than my right to be left alone from outside harm. If somebody wants to depend on other people with weapons and color of law to use them (police) then that is their choice to make and not mine to judge.

very sensitive topic,
we all have exposure and beliefs about firearms both good and bad
for me as  child I had to learn about the balance between spirit and nature before I was allowed to provide food for my family and friends, because of these teachings we learned many things about harvesting food both from land and sea
and how to use many tools to harvest for survival not waste
when I was 17 I enlisted in the service then I learned about weapons and waste
it is the people who make a weapon cry, I will never not own one until I return to my home
with all of spirit leaders I speak to protect me from ever having to draw it from its sheath
it is a right to own them here but delivered without thought or understanding, I do not understand how this could be so misinterpeted we are supposed to be wise
I will not comment anyfurther with this topic to do so I will become offensive to many, it is with great disappointment that I am in a position to say I support owning firearms

Quote from: ainsley on April 13, 2015, 03:52:46 PM
I am in Missouri.  I have guns in my house and I carry a gun in my vehicle.  My kids are in high school and college and they have never messed with my guns without me.  I have raised them to know how to handle guns safely and respect them.  I live in the country, not St. Louis, so my perspective is probably a stark contrast to yours, Kylie.  However, I have said it before on this forum: I grew up in Flint, MI and it had a higher murder rate that your neighbor to the east (E. St. L.).  Didn't feel a need for a gun there.  Out in the country I am miles from police/sheriff/HP and we are the first line of defense.  Broad sweeping gun control is not the answer, IMHO.  Someone always loses on either end of 'no control' or 'strict control'.  Punishing the masses for a few is something I loathe.  I thinks some regulation is needed, of course, but I do not find Missouri to be so violent.  And yes, I lived in St. Louis (met my wife there. ), and I found it to be like any other city: full of good and bad people.  Why punish the good?

Hi Ainsley, fellow Missourian .  I totally get where you are coming from, I come from a family of farmers near the bootheel.  I'm all for your right to own a gun, as I said, I voted for conceal carry here.  I have 0% interest in keeping law abiding citizens from having guns.  I just think that it is a responsibility as well as a right, and it seems like we are moving further away from the responsibility aspect in this state each day.  I may be having ferguson fatigue too.  We have had quite a string of violence since November.

Also, sorry to be so disparaging of the state if you happen to like it here.  I guess I feel like we are just going backwards the last couple years in almost every respect.  I think the hot topic in our legislature this week is making sure that the pledge of allegiance is only allowed to be said in English in schools.  Thank god they are finally tackling that pressing issue.

As an Australian I'm so glad that we don't have rampant firearm ownership in this country. Yes, I have used both a rifle and a shotgun, when I was a kid visiting relatives in the country (I'm quite the shot too it would seem) but it did nothing for me and I can't understand the significance people place on them. We had our last mass shooting incident almost 20 years ago, the firearm ownership rules were changed - you can still own a firearm but need a really good reason. Yes people are still shot and shot at each year, but the numbers are comparatively small and involve either cops shooting crims, crims shooting up each other or domestic violence (where technically the guns are available to either party anyway). Most murders around these parts involve knives instead. Personally I feel much safer knowing that the massive majority of my fellow citizens are not packing, I have never once been threatened with a firearm and I hope to high heavens that continues. My caveat on that though is that I appreciate that Australia is a lot harder to get guns into than many other countries that share borders with countries where gun violence is exceedingly common (eg Mexico, Middle East) so we are not swimming in illegal unregistered firearms. And yes the nut cases who are intent on harm will get their hands on one regardless (like the Lindt Cafe siege in Sydney five city blocks from when I worked) but in 2011 we had 0.86 deaths by shooting per 100,000 of population compared to the US at 10.3 deaths per 100,000.

So, y'know, if your country says you have the right to bear arms then bear away, that is your right and nothing I say above should be construed as me saying you don't have that right. Me personally I'm glad my country says I don't have the right and neither do the majority of the people who live here. I feel much safer for it.

Quote from: Kylie on April 13, 2015, 06:09:47 PM
Hi Ainsley, fellow Missourian .  I totally get where you are coming from, I come from a family of farmers near the bootheel.  I'm all for your right to own a gun, as I said, I voted for conceal carry here.  I have 0% interest in keeping law abiding citizens from having guns.  I just think that it is a responsibility as well as a right, and it seems like we are moving further away from the responsibility aspect in this state each day.  I may be having ferguson fatigue too.  We have had quite a string of violence since November.

Also, sorry to be so disparaging of the state if you happen to like it here.  I guess I feel like we are just going backwards the last couple years in almost every respect.  I think the hot topic in our legislature this week is making sure that the pledge of allegiance is only allowed to be said in English in schools.  Thank god they are finally tackling that pressing issue.

Kylie, I think we are on the same page.   And don't even get me started on our legislature! ha!
I live 3 miles south of a prison (medium security).  I take active self protection seriously for that, and several other reasons.  I am no gun enthusiast, nor NRA member, yada yada.  Just want the best defense I can get.   And, if anyone has ever faced off with 7 coyotes in your back yard in the middle of the day, they will want a shotgun, too.

I believe guns (and knives) are not something that should be available in the world as they are... I'm not Anti-gun, but I believe that having them in your environment will not end well if you were to turn to them for any other reason than to feed yourself, or to directly protect yourself from snakes, bears, wolves etc...

Like Grace I live in Australia, guns are a problem here, but not as much of an issue as elsewhere in the world, for those that do hold gun licenses here there are very strict rules about guns and ammo being kept separately, locked up and far enough apart to stop someone instantly being able to join the two. However more to the point, here there are a lot of illegal guns around, due in a reasonable amount to weapons stolen from peoples homes, therefore how many idiots are running around with guns, who are not responsible!
Oh and I did used to fire guns at a rifle club back in the UK, so I sort of know how to use them.

I got caught in a restaurant out here when 3 gunmen burst in during a local show/fairground close by that were having a firework display... They barged in the door, fired 2 shots into the ceiling and pointed a gun at one of the staff and waved a gun threateningly around the patrons, telling us all to crouch over the tables and not look at them or around...
It was our most terrifying experience associated with guns.... funnily I was a young adult working in and around London during the IRA terror attacks back in the seventies and early eighties, and despite all the risks and sudden traffic/pedestrian diversions, I don't think I was as afraid as in that Restaurant.

Oh, and I do understand the constitutional right in the USA to bear arms... So I'm not Anti gun per say, but I do wonder why so many need and own them?

L Katy

I'm an american gun owner although I do not like saying too much about this on a public forum for my own safety. I frequently carry a handgun (.357 magnum revolver). As far as me, I carry a gun for the following reasons:

1). To protect myself in case I needed it. It's better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it. I also generally carry pepper spray and that to me would be my go to weapon if needed.

I own guns in general for the following reasons:

1). To protect myself against criminals.
2). To protect myself in the event of a natural disaster which required me to abandon my home of where myself and my home were at risk.
3). In the event of public uprising or a sign of civil disobedience (although it is my fondest hope that it never happens)
4). To protect myself in the event of war/invasion/something bad like that (hopefully this never happens either)
5). Target shooting. I love target shooting with my rifles. It's fun.

I always advocate that if someone wants to carry a handgun that they get the proper training before they carry and understand gun safety. Putting on a handgun on one's person is a big responsibility and with it means that I will be held to a higher standard and I am okay with that. I have literally spent hours and hours in classroom time listening to and understanding the laws involving carrying, use of deadly force, etc. Some of the instructors are the same people who teach the police in the use of deadly force. But just knowing the laws is not enough. I invested further in scenario training. This is where I go out and they do real situations where I would have to respond quickly, like a car jacking, a shooting at the mall, etc. That training was quite eye opening to find one's self jumped with a knife to the throat.

I understand that such things are not for everyone. I get it. In my case, I like to have a fighting chance at survival if something did go down. I don't want to be in a dark alley with some giant brute of a man who discovers I used to be a a different person a long time ago and decides he wants to slaughter me and be defenseless in that situation. That doesn't mean I put myself deliberately in those types of circumstances just because I want to draw a gun on someone. Quite the opposite.

The training also teaches that de-escalating a situation is always the best route. There is no harm in running away. There is no way I could out fight 5 guys hell bent on my destruction, heck I couldn't out fight 1. So I carry for the same reason every woman who carries does, self protection against rape and violent crime.

I have even been toying with the idea of getting my FFL license and maybe investing in guns, since many are very collectible. FFL licenses allows me the ability to own a whole different category of weapons including machine guns.

As for the second amendment I always wondered about the clumsy wording and thought it was weird myself. In my own research I discovered that the founders of the country mirrored this right after british common law after an event that happened where catholics were disarmed against protestants, who were later disarmed by the catholics. Yes there were actual laws that said if one was a protestant they could not own a gun. The insanity of having whole groups of people disarmed is why the founders enshrined it and wrote it the way they did. Every armed citizen, including me, is a potential soldier if needed, or in peace another citizen ready to take up arms if needed. Today I totally get it. I can have all the other freedoms in the world, but if I am bleeding out in a dark alley from a vicious criminal, my freedom of speech or any other freedom is worthless if I am unable to defend my own life.


Past supreme court decisions like cruikshank were used as part of racist decisions (the infamous jim crow laws) handed down by the court after the civil war in order to deny blacks from having guns at all. This had the same effect of disarming a whole group of people like catholics vs protestants. It was not until recently (the Heller and McDonald decisions) that the court finally addressed the fact that the founders were right all along and that being able to defend one's own life is a right even if it results in the death of a another person.

In many ways the gun control debate today does exactly that as well. In fact many state courts have relied on the cruikshank decision to justify gun control. But now that cruikshank has been relegated to the ash dump of history, the views on gun ownership and control are changing.

The problem I see is that the current system of licensing is creating haves and have nots. People like me who can "afford" lots of training get permits, and people who cannot do not get them. So now what we are going to see is that people with money will have all the guns and the poor will be left defenseless since they are unable to afford the requirements to get a license.

I maintain though that a right is a right. It's not something that can be voted away. I also feel that just because someone chooses 'not' to exercise that right they shouldn't say "doesn't matter to me, take the right away". People apathetic to gay marriage say the same thing "I'm not gay, never will be, so why do I care about gay marriage?". Therefore I would rather err on the side of people have a natural right to self defense.

I know people think that criminals should not get guns, but I have an interesting story of a neighbor who is a 30 something guy. He met a girl, they fell in love, and had a kid. Later she left him and as part of the separation filed a restraining order against him as a way of winning a custody battle. In Massachusetts it resulted in instant forfeiture of his gun license and any guns he had. Keep in mind he never hit her or laid a finger on her. He grew up with guns and went hunting with his father all his life and was an avid hunter. This girl knew exactly how to hurt him and she did. I feel sorry for him that now he is treated like scum because of this and take him to the range because I know he is still a good person who was treated badly by the system. Are there some bad people who shouldn't have guns. Sure. But not everyone who gets accused of doing a bad thing is really a bad person.

This always bring me back to the point where a right is not a right if people can just take it away from you. I support many things, in fact me personally I have a very weird collection of things I support. I support gay marriage, lgbt rights, pro-choice, help for people who need assistance, and yet at the same time I also understand that self-protection is just as equal a right and not subservient. I honestly don't know where this puts me politically. If I vote republican I might as well kiss lgbt rights and gay marriage good bye. If I vote democrat, I might as well kiss gun rights good bye. To me neither option is an option I want to choose.

Thanks for the thoughtful post explaining your position.  I can see a lot of your points, and never considered the issue of the money involved in obtaining permit training.  I guess my problem is in just making it a free for all which seems like what is being advocated more and more.  Perhaps you can shed some light on a couple questions I have:

1. Why are background checks and chain of custody registrations so offensive?

I have a problem with a state taking away your right, but I don't have a problem with them reasonably regulating that right. I think you said you lived in Massachusetts, but it sounds like you are able to reasonably exercise that right despite their stiffer regulations.  Your neighbor is obviously getting the shaft, but like any bad law, it could be fixed.  I also think a conceal carry permit should suffice as a background check.

2. If we are literal about "shall not be infringed" should we not be as literal about the stated purpose for the arms in the amendment "a well regulated militia" not because it is necessary for recreation, personal protection etc.?

I actually like shooting trap and skeet.  I got turned off to hand guns when I was in high school.  One of our classes went to a shooting range, and with the gun in my hand, I looked around at my classmates.  I didn't like the power, it actually made me physically shudder.  I never had the same reaction to rifles or shotguns though.  I shot a bird with a BB gun once, and made my mom take me to the humane society to get it fixed.  I felt horrible for weeks.  I'm just not cut out for killing things.

  I do support the right to bear arms. I don't own a gun and I don't care to. I have practiced with my 2 nephews' guns and of my 2 brothers-in-laws' guns in the past few years. Various pistols, a .22 rifle, a shotgun and a hog leg. This for peace of mind. I even made a portable target frame for those family shoots at the cabin. I have window shopped for pistols the past few years as well. 

Does anyone here know if talking to a therapist about gender will cause you to lose your cpl/ccw. I carry for work.

This thread has strongly affirmed my aversion to visiting or immigrating to the United States. If I must leave Canada, a Western European country or Japan may be fine.

Quote from: toniwest on April 15, 2015, 10:10:58 PM
Does anyone here know if talking to a therapist about gender will cause you to lose your cpl/ccw. I carry for work.

No, unless you are enough a threat that a report (to police) has to be done or if you have been committed (inpatient) by a court order or another way of having been formally declared "mentally ill." Privacy regulations especially apply to outpatient mental health providers although the party that pays for services tends to be the weakest link.