Why does it matter if you were clocked and nothing really negative happened from it?   Did it bruise your ego?


One thing I know is that you can't let little things get you and you definitely shouldn't try to read too much into every off glance you might get from someone, you have no idea what they are thinking.

Well it did bruise my ego

Because I hold myself to a realistic standard of what passing *really* means. So I know I need to work on a few things if I'm to self proclaim being able to pull off any sort stealthyness in my presentation.

I'm not interested in being accepted as trans*. I'm interested in being accepted unquestionably (at least on the outside) as a woman.

Quote from: marsh monster on April 20, 2015, 05:05:18 PM
One thing I know is that you can't let little things get you and you definitely shouldn't try to read too much into every off glance you might get from someone, you have no idea what they are thinking.

^^^ BTW - I think being able to read people in general is an important skill set to have if you are going to attempt at winning at their own game... 

'Passing' or 'not being clocked' is not a game to be won.

See, everybody has a brain in their head, and a degree of autonomy in what they think and perceive.

We cannot control what another person thinks and sees. So, to invest in doing so is sheer folly.

We *can* do something about how we feel within ourselves, and get on with life.

Work toward reconciling the fact that you will be clocked, from time to time. It is part of our life as trans-people, and something we cannot run from.

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 20, 2015, 05:11:37 PM
I'm not interested in being accepted as trans*. I'm interested in being accepted unquestionably (at least on the outside) as a woman.

Are you saving for surgeries? Reaching "unquestionably" status might be a little expensive...

The way I survived the critical female eye in intimate female spaces was to take it very slowly and figure out where my boundaries are.

I know that people's opinions differ on this subject but for me blending in was extremely important. That meant dressing age and situation appropriate, studying and learning female mannerisms and customs, learning how to walk, move, and sit like a female, and i worked on my voice. All of the above is still going on and probably will be for the rest of my life although I know that some things can't be eradicated no matter how much I try.

When I test a boundary it's really a test of how well I've learned this topic. When i am out of my element which comes either by by own gut feel or by women making me nervous I retreat until I have learned enough to feel confident then it's back in i go.

I am pre-op so some spaces remain off limits to me. Women are accepting of me but flashing junk is a definite no no in their intimate spaces.

Quote from: mmmmm on April 20, 2015, 05:27:37 PM
Are you saving for surgeries? Reaching "unquestionably" status might be a little expensive...

^^ Exactly.

So I've mostly reached my limits, although I still have another year to go with subtle hormonal improvements. Will I pass unquestionably when tested? Probably not. Pass good enough for casual interactions and casual womens spaces? Probably.

Have I met my goals? I'm happy.

Actually this is all reminiscent of a recent androgynouspainter thread about passing.

We all have our insecurities no matter who we are.

But face them realistically.

Quote from: Eva Marie on April 20, 2015, 05:28:49 PM
The way I survived the critical female eye in intimate female spaces was to take it very slowly and figure out where my boundaries are.

I know that people's opinions differ on this subject but for me blending in was extremely important. That meant dressing age and situation appropriate, studying and learning female mannerisms and customs, learning how to walk, move, and sit like a female, and i worked on my voice. All of the above is still going on and probably will be for the rest of my life although I know that some things can't be eradicated no matter how much I try.

When I test a boundary it's really a test of how well I've learned this topic. When i am out of my element which comes either by by own gut feel or by women making me nervous I retreat until I have learned enough to feel confident then it's back in i go.

I am pre-op so some spaces remain off limits to me. Women are accepting of me but flashing junk is a definite no no in their intimate spaces.

^^ Excellent. Excellent. Excellent. Good thinking.

(And with that take home message I'm settling out of this thread.)

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 20, 2015, 03:09:11 PM
I think studying other T women's presentation is important so we can glean what to do, and what NOT to do.

So far from almost everything I've seen on the tube's, I'm not impressed. It's starkly apparent that our community has a long way to go in its struggles and knowledge sharing is vital.

I'm late to the discussion, but I'll add something to this point.  Most of the transwomen I know fit into this barely passing category...and they seem to have just given up and decided that passing is unnecessary.  And I couldn't disagree more.

These women have all the confidence (cough, cough) in the world.  But their attitude about blending in is very different from mine.  There's a difference between coming to acceptance of the fact that we are transwomen and being ok with being viewed as transwomen.  I haven't suffered my whole life just to be viewed as trans.

I suppose the difference then comes down to brutal honesty, realistic assessment (of self and the world around me), and putting in the long difficult work of unlearning a lifetime of habits we formed to try to blend in as guys.  Don't get me wrong...I'm enjoying this process.  But it's not easy.

Quote from: SarahBoo on April 20, 2015, 05:26:20 PM
'Passing' or 'not being clocked' is not a game to be won.

Sure it is, if you have your in safety in mind...

Quote from: Eva Marie on April 20, 2015, 05:28:49 PM
The way I survived the critical female eye in intimate female spaces was to take it very slowly and figure out where my boundaries are.

I know that people's opinions differ on this subject but for me blending in was extremely important. That meant dressing age and situation appropriate, studying and learning female mannerisms and customs, learning how to walk, move, and sit like a female, and i worked on my voice. All of the above is still going on and probably will be for the rest of my life although I know that some things can't be eradicated no matter how much I try.

When I test a boundary it's really a test of how well I've learned this topic. When i am out of my element which comes either by by own gut feel or by women making me nervous I retreat until I have learned enough to feel confident then it's back in i go.

I am pre-op so some spaces remain off limits to me. Women are accepting of me but flashing junk is a definite no no in their intimate spaces.

^^ Excellent. Excellent. Excellent. Good thinking.

(And with that take home message I'm settling out of this thread.)

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 20, 2015, 05:58:32 PM
Sure it is, if you have your in safety in mind...

Being safe is about one's lifestyle, who they affiliate with, and how they go about things.

'Passing' doesn't contribute much to how safe one is, in the big scheme of things.

Quote from: SarahBoo on April 20, 2015, 06:12:50 PM
Being safe is about one's lifestyle, who they affiliate with, and how they go about things.

'Passing' doesn't contribute much to how safe one is, in the big scheme of things.

On the contrary. A woman might get a few cat calls, a "tr***" might get the bleep kicked out of her.

My close friends and colleagues do praise my feminine beauty when I deserve it, even though all of them know my biological sex. They understand that I have to use women's bathroom.

My close female friends give me a lot of advice on fashion and makeup, and I learn from them. Sometimes they praise my fashion sense, and sometimes give me a gift of fragrance or fishnet stockings. Oh. Also male friends infrequently give me some small gifts, too.

I just try to look beautiful and express my femininity, in which passing or being clocked on are virtually irrelevant.

barbie~~

Quote from: iKate on April 20, 2015, 07:30:31 PM
On the contrary. A woman might get a few cat calls, a "tr***" might get the bleep kicked out of her.

I live in one of the roughest areas in Perth, Western Australia (moving soon, thankfully!), and have never been threatened. Not once.

It is because I play it safe. I am always aware of my surroundings. I move through the rough areas demurely and with my head up. I do not invite trouble.

I am respectful toward others, and they are respectful toward me. If people ask me questions I answer. If people shout something out, so what? I do not respond with hostility - doing so would invite hostility.

Now, if I went out at night alone, got drinking, and *put myself in a vulnerable position*, things could be different.

Attitude is everything. Stealth would achieve nothing if my attitude was not positive, as I would still get clocked, and still have those interactions.

Quote from: SarahBoo on April 20, 2015, 09:34:35 PM
I live in one of the roughest areas in Perth, Western Australia (moving soon, thankfully!), and have never been threatened. Not once.

It is because I play it safe. I am always aware of my surroundings. I move through the rough areas demurely and with my head up. I do not invite trouble.

I am respectful toward others, and they are respectful toward me. If people ask me questions I answer. If people shout something out, so what? I do not respond with hostility - doing so would invite hostility.

Now, if I went out at night alone, got drinking, and *put myself in a vulnerable position*, things could be different.

Attitude is everything. Stealth would achieve nothing if my attitude was not positive, as I would still get clocked, and still have those interactions.

I don't know the culture in aus but in the USA violence against trans women is pretty real. This is one big reason for stealth.

Quote from: iKate on April 20, 2015, 09:36:09 PM
I don't know the culture in aus but in the USA violence against trans women is pretty real. This is one big reason for stealth.

I hear you there, I have been told stories about some places in the US. The sort of places where you cannot even be openly gay.

Still, my point is the same. Attitude is a big part of how our interactions turn out.

For example, say somebody calls me a '->-bleeped-<-', or publicly misgenders me for fun. Do I get offended and demand an apology? No.

I take it on the chin and respond with kindness. Pretty soon people realise they are dealing with someone tough, and so damned *nice*, that they end up feeling *bad* about what they said!

Quote from: SarahBoo on April 20, 2015, 09:34:35 PM
I live in one of the roughest areas in Perth, Western Australia (moving soon, thankfully!), and have never been threatened. Not once.

It is because I play it safe. I am always aware of my surroundings. I move through the rough areas demurely and with my head up. I do not invite trouble.

I am respectful toward others, and they are respectful toward me. If people ask me questions I answer. If people shout something out, so what? I do not respond with hostility - doing so would invite hostility.

Now, if I went out at night alone, got drinking, and *put myself in a vulnerable position*, things could be different.

Attitude is everything. Stealth would achieve nothing if my attitude was not positive, as I would still get clocked, and still have those interactions.

I hung out in some of the 'rougher' parts of Adelaide and never had any serious issue - in fact I found I was welcomed in to peoples homes, mostly because I was honest and unafraid of who I was. I was also befriended by the 'aunties' which came in handy the few times I did have trouble.. Like the time 2 white guys in their late teens decided to hassle me in the street - the aboriginal guy with them smacked them both in the head and said "You can't say that to her, that aint right."

Even with that, there are some places I just wouldn't go alone - one of which is/was the major 'nightclub' street.. Still feeling my way around Melbourne, but haven't hit any real issues so far.

Passing is important to me, for the simple reason that I find life tough enough without dealing with stares and comments behind my back. I don't have the confidence or self esteem of some of you, and incidents that someone else might be able to deal with and brush off would leave me shaken for weeks. It's one of the reasons I have a bit of an issue with the seemingly cure all solution of more confidence; I can't just decide to 'own it'. Some days I feel good, others I want to stay in and see no one. I met a non passing trans woman once who lives in a less accepting town than I do; she was minding her own business, not rising to taunts, and she had all of the teeth kicked out of her head.

Thankfully I get by ok, but I put work into it, I've spent a lot of time on my voice and I learn as much as I can, whenever I can. Just because I don't want to/don't have the strength to live my life as visibly trans IT doesn't mean there's anything wrong with me or that I need to change my thinking. I know me better than anyone so I'll do what I need to to be happy.

With changing rooms in gyms, for me they are off limits until after surgery. That's just my personal view on it, I feel like I'd be crossing a line going into an environment like that with a penis. I don't think any amount of confidence or 'feminine energy' is going to make the situation better when a woman sees male genitalia whilst she's getting changed.

Quote from: kelly_aus on April 21, 2015, 01:08:46 AM
I hung out in some of the 'rougher' parts of Adelaide and never had any serious issue - in fact I found I was welcomed in to peoples homes, mostly because I was honest and unafraid of who I was. I was also befriended by the 'aunties' which came in handy the few times I did have trouble.. Like the time 2 white guys in their late teens decided to hassle me in the street - the aboriginal guy with them smacked them both in the head and said "You can't say that to her, that aint right."

That has been my life in Mirrabooka and the surrounding suburbs :~)

Going out at night in dangerous areas, as you say, is a big no-no. Trans or not!