You might look up a brochure called "doh-transgender-experiences.pdf" .
It states that being trans has biological connections, to do with development before birth which influences the sense of self. Inside of the brochure is a link to further references (findings and studies). One explanation are certain hormone levels at certain times before birth, for whatever reason.

    In sum, gender identity, whether consistent or inconsistent with other sex
    characteristics, may be understood to be "much less a matter of choice and much
    more a matter of biology" (Coolidge et al., 2000). The scientific evidence supports
    the paradigm that transsexualism is strongly associated with the neurodevelopment of
    the brain (Zhou et al., 1995; Kruijver et al., 2000). It is clear that the condition cannot
    necessarily be overcome by "consistent psychological socialisation as male or female
    from very early childhood" ...
    It is understood that during the fetal period the brain
    is potentially subject to the organising properties of sex hormones (Kruijver et al.,
    2000; 2001; 2002; 2003). In the case of transsexualism, these effects appear to be
    atypical, resulting in sex-reversal in the structure of the BSTc, and possibly other, as
    yet unidentified, loci (Kruijver, 2004). The etiological pathways leading to this
    inconsistent development almost certainly vary from individual to individual, so no
    single route is likely to be identified. Different genetic, hormonal and environmental
    factors, acting separately or in combination with each other, are likely to be involved
    in influencing the development of the psychological identification as male or female.

    Psychosocial factors and cultural mores are likely to impact on outcomes (Connolly,
    2003).


It may or may not be hereditary.

Transgender people have often been throughout times teachers, advisors and healers.
(as a maybe funny aside many transgender people report being asked by their friends for relationship advice )
Imo many can access both male and female thinking patterns without having to fit in one box.

Quote from: sonson on April 21, 2015, 08:07:07 PM
haha, dont worry, that definitely made sense! that was a great read actually. very informative, and I appreciate you taking the time to write all that. I think about this kind of stuff all the time too, though I think the difference between us is that you seem to have actual knowledge of the subject, whereas I'm always just speculating 

I found it very interesting when you brought up the question of whether or not ->-bleeped-<- is hereditary. I had never really actively thought about this before. I had always assumed that it was non-hereditary, and just a random occurrence during gestation. I figured that if it can't be passed down, then natural selection wouldn't be able to phase it out. though you seem to say the opposite:you're saying that the fact that transgender people have continued to exist throughout history is evidence that it's hereditary, correct? maybe I'm totally wrong in my thinking (never actually studied evolutionary science, in fact it wasnt allowed in my school), but I feel that although we certainly have the ability to reproduce, we seem to be far less likely in comparison to the other 96% of the population, given the social issues that you brought up earlier, not to mention dysphoria often leading to suicide or self-mutilation. It seems like if those traits are inherited, they'd have to get through a lot of improbable circumstances to remain at 4% today. I just feel like it might make more sense if it isn't hereditary.

though now Im reading that back, and I admit 4% is pretty damn low. so maybe it's not that improbable. sorry, I'm sort of writing my thoughts as I think them so Im kinda going back and forth here. anyway, as far as I know I could be totally wrong about all this, and please let me know if I am! I love discussing this stuff, thanks for engaging me! 

I think this is a great discussion to have, and I'm happy to have someone to talk with about it.  "Speculation" that's based in logic is the foundation of scientific inquiry so, there is nothing wrong with that at all!  I don't actually work on gender or sex for a living but I do work on variation in form (or am starting to at least) so, that's the background I'm applying.  You are right that self-harm and dysphoria can lower reproductive success, and if being transgender is heritable, could lower the percentage of the population but considering that it's 1%-5%, that's still quite low.  Also, I think that suicide and self-harm are probably more common now than they ever have been for a number of societal reasons.  If it turns out that it is heritable, reproductive success and continuation of this variation will likely be strongly correlated with access and utilization of reproductive assistance (i.e. surrogacy) given the issues of dysphoria and that the majority of transgender people are socially straight if not clinically. 

In all honesty, I don't think I even thought about these issues until I was dating my ex-girlfriend because I just *assumed* that I was a reproductive "dead-end" for the first 26 years of my life.  When I was suddenly dating someone whom I could potentially have genetic children with, it kind of flipped the world's axis for me a bit, and even though it won't happen with her, I don't really consider myself as inherently reproductively isolated anymore.  I don't think any of us should feel *forced* into isolation, either, anymore than we should be pressured to have kids.  It's all a personal decision. 

Whether or not it's heritable, or if it's something that emerges only during gestation, there's clearly some genetic underpinning, and I find that awesome.  This is also very much the foundation for my personal feeling (and I know that I don't speak for everyone or maybe not even a significant number of transgender people) that I wasn't "born in the wrong body" but rather that for a transgender man, I was born in exactly the right body.  If I'd been born male, I'd be in the wrong body for being a transgender man, haha!  Do I have dysphoria?  Yes.  But if society allowed for the equal existence of men with and without breasts, I might not - I'll really never know.  What I do know is that I really would like for someone in the future to be able to answer the question that I cannot.  I'd like for society to reach a point wherein we aren't seen as "deviant" or "disabled" or anything other than natural variations on an already pretty amazing form.  I mean, human beings have opposable thumbs and giant brains, and we can throw baseballs - that is awesome!  Why don't we celebrate that?  Why not include within the realms of feminine beauty and masculinity both male and female forms?  There's really no reason in my opinion.  No one will ever convince me that a female body can't be masculine or that a male body can't be feminine, and even that assumes that women *should* be feminine and men masculine, which doesn't fit with every person regardless of being cisgender or transgender.  *And* I've also mostly ignored non-binary people who are also part of the variation that exists. 

And now this has turned into one of my transgender-pride rants so, I'll end it there.  Though, I think you've given me my next blog topic.

Cheers,
Ian

Quote from: Ian68 on April 21, 2015, 09:21:30 PM
I think this is a great discussion to have, and I'm happy to have someone to talk with about it. 

same! I've enjoyed talking about this with you!

and as far as how I think of myself, I'm pretty much in the same boat as you. I dont think I'll ever consider myself to be a true female or "woman", but I do consider myself to be a transgender woman, which is good enough for me. its a pretty special thing to be, really. I wont lie and say I dont wish I could be biologically female, but if I had been born that way, then I wouldnt be who I am now, so Im happy to have been born the way I was. its a struggle, but it only makes us stronger.

QuoteI'd like for society to reach a point wherein we aren't seen as "deviant" or "disabled" or anything other than natural variations on an already pretty amazing form.  I mean, human beings have opposable thumbs and giant brains, and we can throw baseballs - that is awesome!

hell yeah! my thoughts exactly, well said! 

Quote from: Laura_7 on April 21, 2015, 08:28:23 PM
You might look up a brochure called "doh-transgender-experiences.pdf" .
It states that being trans has biological connections, to do with development before birth which influences the sense of self. Inside of the brochure is a link to further references (findings and studies). One explanation are certain hormone levels at certain times before birth, for whatever reason.

that sounds like a good read, thanks for sharing!

Quote from: AshBear on April 17, 2015, 10:22:32 PM

being transgender to me, is to constantly look forward to the day when I can just be me.

This right here. This is my everyday. This sums up my life.

Geez I thought I tended to over intellectualize... way to kill a good thread nerds!

I always felt that, being (gender "adaptable") trans, I embody the next evolutionary step.

Quote from: femmebutt on April 23, 2015, 06:27:33 PM
Geez I thought I tended to over intellectualize... way to kill a good thread nerds!

<3

To me, it means that I had to go through a lot of *stuff*, and make a lot of sacrifices, just to feel comfortable in my own skin.

to me, it means I'm gonna take a bit longer to be who I am inside, but that's ok. I can wait.

For me it means...not a lot these days, really. My experience coming out was not as horrible as many people, but it created a lot of interpersonal issues and it proved to be a challenge. My time spent as a female wasn't great either, because I honestly felt terrible with my hormones as they were. I had this near constant feeling of physical and mental malaise that I could never pinpoint. So from that, I really conclude that transsexualism is biological, pure and simple, much like sexual orientation. In the same way my body gave me all these little cues that I wanted to be with women, it gave me cues that something, in its structure, was amiss.

Other than physical. I see it simply as a challenge that I experienced and am overcoming. It doesn't have to define me in any significant way. It doesn't have to define me any more than my periods of depression have or will. It doesn't have to define me any more than the issues I had with my family. I'm a man who experienced a challenge and is overcoming it.

Being transgender simply means I managed to survive a horrible, crippling medical condition that many don't survive because of the horrible things we have to overcome.

As a survivor I'm faced with the formidable task of learning to live a new life while trying to cast off remnants of my old life. There is so much to learn and so much judgement and discrimination to deal with now that I never faced before.

Would I do it again? To stay alive - yes. As a "lifestyle choice"? No way. No one in their right mind would choose this.

I survived - the rest is all gravy. I have a second chance at life now.

I'm transgender, proud, and happy. I'm also well within my right mind. 

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Eva Marie on April 24, 2015, 02:34:48 PM
No way. No one in their right mind would choose this.

While I respect your right to feel as you do, I completely disagree with this statement.  There is nothing inherently bad about being transgender, and it certainly isn't an illness.  The ways in which we are often treated by society are sick but that doesn't mean that we are.  I also understand that because of severe dysphoria, some people may feel "crippled," and I'm not trying to invalidate someone else's subjective reality.  However, to say that "no one in their right mind would choose this" is very negative an (I'm sure unintentionally) accusatory.  It's saying that 1) being transgender is bad or unnatural (see recent publications, including the new DSM), and 2) anyone who views being transgender in a positive light must suffer from a mental disorder - neither of these are objectively true. 

I'm sorry that you personally feel that you suffer from an illness, but that is your right.  But personally, I *would* choose to remain as I am if given the opportunity to alter the circumstances of my birth because otherwise, I wouldn't be the same person.  Yes, there are things that happen that cause me to suffer that wouldn't have happened if I'd been born male, but I would also be more narrow-minded and less self-aware than I am now - those tradeoffs are too big to make it worth it in my mind, and I'm not "crazy."

I use the term "transgender" to identify myself because I don't know of any other proper term, but really, I don't like the term because it sounds like you changed your gender.  I have never changed my gender; I have changed how I present myself to others.

I feel like a woman who has a physical medical problem.

Rosa

Quote from: Ian68 on April 24, 2015, 05:15:33 PM
While I respect your right to feel as you do, I completely disagree with this statement.  There is nothing inherently bad about being transgender, and it certainly isn't an illness.  The ways in which we are often treated by society are sick but that doesn't mean that we are.  I also understand that because of severe dysphoria, some people may feel "crippled," and I'm not trying to invalidate someone else's subjective reality.  However, to say that "no one in their right mind would choose this" is very negative an (I'm sure unintentionally) accusatory.  It's saying that 1) being transgender is bad or unnatural (see recent publications, including the new DSM), and 2) anyone who views being transgender in a positive light must suffer from a mental disorder - neither of these are objectively true. 

I'm sorry that you personally feel that you suffer from an illness, but that is your right.  But personally, I *would* choose to remain as I am if given the opportunity to alter the circumstances of my birth because otherwise, I wouldn't be the same person.  Yes, there are things that happen that cause me to suffer that wouldn't have happened if I'd been born male, but I would also be more narrow-minded and less self-aware than I am now - those tradeoffs are too big to make it worth it in my mind, and I'm not "crazy."

While it's not inherently a "bad" thing there still are consequences. People lose touch with family members or spouses for one reason or another. Yes, that's still an "other people" thing but it still factors in. My ex supports me whole-heartedly, but he's mostly straight so he could only offer to be my friend. It's not my fault that I'm trans and it's not his fault that he's not attracted to me in that way anymore. But if I were given a choice to be a cisgendered female and be with him or a transman and lose him? I'd take the first option. Sure, I -may- find someone that I like here that will accept me, but I also may not. I'm sure there are other losses people have experienced for different reasons and different situations. Lost a job they loved, cut ties with families they cared about, etc.

I don't think it was about saying being trans is bad per se, but rather everything else that comes with it, regardless of whether or not one feels it's worth it. I kinda think of it as pulling out a rotted tooth. It hurts like a mother, you can't take it anymore. You have it pulled. There's some relief but then the meds wear off and oh GOD does it hurt (though with some relief) and there's now a hole. It'll heal, sure. Was it worth it in the end? Yeah. Would you rather not have to have that situation? I think so.
It's a stupid and inaccurate analogy but I am tired and stressed from school so this is the best I can do.

Quote from: Ian68 on April 24, 2015, 05:15:33 PM
While I respect your right to feel as you do, I completely disagree with this statement.  There is nothing inherently bad about being transgender, and it certainly isn't an illness.  The ways in which we are often treated by society are sick but that doesn't mean that we are.  I also understand that because of severe dysphoria, some people may feel "crippled," and I'm not trying to invalidate someone else's subjective reality.  However, to say that "no one in their right mind would choose this" is very negative an (I'm sure unintentionally) accusatory.  It's saying that 1) being transgender is bad or unnatural (see recent publications, including the new DSM), and 2) anyone who views being transgender in a positive light must suffer from a mental disorder - neither of these are objectively true. 

I'm sorry that you personally feel that you suffer from an illness, but that is your right.  But personally, I *would* choose to remain as I am if given the opportunity to alter the circumstances of my birth because otherwise, I wouldn't be the same person.  Yes, there are things that happen that cause me to suffer that wouldn't have happened if I'd been born male, but I would also be more narrow-minded and less self-aware than I am now - those tradeoffs are too big to make it worth it in my mind, and I'm not "crazy."

I don't think anyone has outright said being trans is wrong or bad. It's just not the ideal. Many people in the trans community have had to make sacrifices in one way or another that they would not have otherwise had to make were they born with a body that matches their brain. If I got to choose, I'd want to be born male. The experience of being AFAB is not worth the trade off that is transition, IMO.

"Ideal" by what standard, though?  And what about those who choose not to medically transition (even though they have the resources to do so) or those who undergo partial medical transition?  Do their bodies not "match" their brains?  Are they defective somehow?  That's the very slippery slope this sort of assertion approaches. 

Everyone has a right to their own self-perception, and to feel that their body or situation is not ideal for them, but no one has the right to claim that being transgender is bad/ less ideal than being cisgender.  That is *their* subjective experience, but the claim is almost always generalized to the state of being transgender, and thus, all transgender people.  There's no scientific evidence for inferiority, and societies change, and it will change if we help it to do so. 

Even in a world that would be totally accepting of male-born women and female-born men, many people would want some form of medical transition because of how they personally view themselves.  I believe that I would still want to have top surgery, but I doubt that I'd be thinking about testosterone.  Other people wouldn't change their bodies at all.  All of these variations are fine, and legitimate.  If someone genuinely is uncomfortable with their body, they have a right to feel that way, and to change it - but not to pressure other people to feel that way.

Ideal is in the eye if the beholder, I guess, but it's also very personal.  No one will ever convince me that a cisgender man is inherently more ideal than me as a man (he may be for other reasons).  Nor will anyone convince me that I should view a transgender woman as a less ideal woman just because she has or had a male body. 

People have a right to their opinions; I'm just cautioning against making generalizations that may negatively affect other transgender people (especially kids).

When I said "the ideal", I was referring to the situation. IMO, it is never the ideal situation to have to do the things that many of us have done to feel halfway decent in our bodies.

I have a medical condition. Management of that condition for me personally requires lifelong medication and multiple surgical interventions. I don't think it's offensive to say that I would rather have been born without this condition, and that having it has put me in a less than ideal situation. Maybe in a world with equal access to healthcare, I could be a little more understanding.

But it's different for everyone, and that's just my experience.