Quote from: Ravenna on May 14, 2015, 04:07:01 PM
I've been really worried !   

You shouldn't be worried at all. You should stop photoshopping yourself; you don't need it. 

Also, not to be a jerk, and I know that she *did* ask for advice, but are we all looking at the same girl??? What is all of this upper face "fixing" stuff?  She's already really pretty. 

But then, I guess I wouldn't know about what counts as "passing."  Certainly, it shouldn't be conflated with beauty, though. 

Quote from: mmmmm on May 14, 2015, 07:08:35 PM
Your transition between nose and forehead is typically masculine, as well as your orbital rims. These two things don't change with hormones.
Will you "pass" without any of these corrected? That depends on what "passing" means to you... as I learn here different people percieve "passing" very differently. For me it simply means being seen (by everybody) as cis-born female and nothing else, other people think of it differently. These two things give boyish aspect to your face, which is not necessarily bad, but it will also give some clues to some people. Besides fixing that issue, it would be also worth doing upper face because you would look really beautiful. Your chin and jaw aren't problematic, but a little more prominent V-shape would be a good idea (mostly for aesthetic reasons). And definitely trachea shave.

Damn I wonder how many cis girls pass by ur standards

I think you honestly don't need any surgeries on your face. You look good as you are. Passing-wise I'd say the same. I agree that gaining weight for you - a bit chub could actually work! But I'd not really even say it seem necessary to be honest.

Quote from: londonswaves on May 14, 2015, 08:10:03 PM
I think you honestly don't need any surgeries on your face. You look good as you are. Passing-wise I'd say the same. I agree that gaining weight for you - a bit chub could actually work! But I'd not really even say it seem necessary to be honest.

Im glad ! this makes me happy thank you

Quote from: Ravenna on May 14, 2015, 08:28:45 PM
Im glad ! this makes me happy thank you

No problem gurl :3c
And.. I actually think you are very lucky with what you already have. unlike me lol

Quote from: amber roskamp on May 14, 2015, 08:08:51 PM
Damn I wonder how many cis girls pass by ur standards

Moreover, there is a huge diversity in the face shapes, forehead heights, jaw widths, and bossing among cisgender women.  You may wish to compare the following: Famke Janssen, Angelina Jolie, Lana Del Ray, and Jessica Alba.  Famke Janssen has a pronounced brow line, and define facial features.  Angelina Jolie has a high forehead, and strong jawline.  Lana Del Ray has a square-ish jaw and defined features, and then Jessica Alba is just curves and tiny features everywhere - all of them are cisgender.  Then, compare several transgender women: Janet Mock, Andreja Pejic, Parinya Charoenphon, and Carmen Carrera.  Janet Mock has a high forehead.  Andreja Pejic has very defined features, and a strong jawline.  Parinya Charoenphon has a pronounced brow line.  Carmen Carrera is curves everywhere. 

These are the same features, and in beautiful cisgender women, they are unnoticed or even valued, yet they are criticized as evidence for "masculinity" in transgender women.  That's the biggest double standard if ever I've heard of one.

Please be careful about making these sorts of judgments, and really think about where they are coming from, and whether it's helpful or just hurtful.   

id love to look like famke jansenn one day :-}
I also think tilda Swinton is quite beautiful
shes played both male and female roles in movies

The incredible, amazing, never-ending diversity among people doesn't change the simple fact that we are hard-wired to INSTANTLY gender people based on a large number of subtle biological characteristics.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with beauty.  Every one of the GGs cited would be gendered female by anyone even trying to pass as male. 

Your point has some validity, but not as much as you think.  Passing isn't solely based on appearance and even when it is, not solely on the face.  The exercise is to reduce the male cues as much as possible so they don't add up to male in the aggregate.  All it takes is something that appears a bit off, then all the other cues click into place.  The same things happen to CONFIRM a GG's gender when things like the characteristics you cite may look male or androgynous. 

Perhaps another sort of care in judgement is called for??

Tilda Swinton is really interesting looking.  She can have a sort of ethereal beauty. 

On the other hand, I always thought Angelina Jolie looked like a fish.  A female fish, of course.

[edit] I forgot to add that I disagree with the weight comments.  Thinner is usually better for passibility.  Male bulk is a strong tell.  Your current weight is what gives your face some of its female-like variation, your cheekbones more prominence, makes your lips look fuller, and your eyes bigger. It also highlights your jawline, which is excellent. 

if someone tells u that u need to do all of those things to pass, don't listen. They aren't experts. The best thing you can do is transition to a point where u are happy with ur self.

Passing is somewhat over-rated. If you put too much focus on passing, it's hard to be happy. I have seen many totally beautiful trans women that don't pass. Being confident and feeling beautiful is a much better feeling then the times that u feel like you pass. And, girl, u are beautiful already so you won't have to worry bout that.

Quote from: amber roskamp on May 15, 2015, 11:54:42 AM
if someone tells u that u need to do all of those things to pass, don't listen. They aren't experts. The best thing you can do is transition to a point where u are happy with ur self.

Passing is somewhat over-rated. If you put too much focus on passing, it's hard to be happy. I have seen many totally beautiful trans women that don't pass. Being confident and feeling beautiful is a much better feeling then the times that u feel like you pass. And, girl, u are beautiful already so you won't have to worry bout that.

I am completely with Amber on this. 

And no one is saying that "passing" is a bad thing, but it also isn't a "good" thing - it's just a thing.  Some people "pass," and some people don't, and neither state is a guarantee of happiness or beauty. 

Quote from: mmmmm on May 15, 2015, 12:36:41 PM
It's like you're trying to say that being really passable is a bad thing... 

I do not feel that way. And I'm sorry if something I said sounded like that. Passing is a privilege, that's all it is. It does benefit those of us that are able to do it, but It's a privilege that some of us will never have. And like money and all other privileges it doesn't ensure happiness.

Ravenna is definitely not one of those people that won't pass.She already passes from what I see. Once she starts hrt she could easily pass. Probably even go stealth if she chooses. I am just a little upset that you are telling her that she needs to do this and this and this in order to pass. This is a support site be supportive.

Quote from: amber roskamp on May 15, 2015, 02:14:11 PM
I do not feel that way. And I'm sorry if something I said sounded like that. Passing is a privilege, that's all it is. It does benefit those of us that are able to do it, but It's a privilege that some of us will never have. And like money and all other privileges it doesn't ensure happiness.

Ravenna is definitely not one of those people that won't pass.She already passes from what I see. Once she starts hrt she could easily pass. Probably even go stealth if she chooses. I am just a little upset that you are telling her that she needs to do this and this and this in order to pass. This is a support site be supportive.

I didn't by any means tell her she NEEDS to do anything in order to pass! Read again, you quoted my answer to her, so you can still read it. I deleted it because its obviously offensive to you and some other. I pointed to some more or less problematic features, that she would benefit from correcting, IF she ever wants to have any feminization surgery. By no means I feel competent to say whether she will be able to pass perfectly, or any less perfectly, based on 3 photos.

Just a little brow shaving and a trach shave is all I can see suggesting.

You have very feminine features and honestly you're gorgeous just as you are.

Quote from: Ravenna on May 12, 2015, 06:52:45 PM
would you take a look at my avatar and see if you think I'd pass without surgery and if I gained a little weight?
And if you think I need surgery, which ones ?
thanks! ^.^

I think the first question I need to ask you is, what level of scrutiny are we talking about? Are you talking about passing on 75% of the general population you pass by? Or you talking about 100% achieving Stealth?

Honestly, you have very fem eye shape and layout on your face, and yes your masculine jaw detracts from that and with it reduced via FFS it will further enhance your eyes - which I'm sure you know which is exactly why you did this in your photoshopping. Ditto on the thinning of the chin.

I don't think you have to worry about your receded hair line tho. On that, you're obsessing. Leave it a lone, it's fine. You're young, you haven't even entered the domain of 'need to worry about this now or will for another 10 years'.

But those above things could possibly smooth out and be less pronounced with HRT (to a degree). But really, they aren't so noticeable as to stop you from passing. What does stop you is your adam's apple. That's a point blank dead giveaway there.

Everything else tho? Meh, you could use the right tactics to minimize it and distract and call the eyes to other areas. Like wear things on your neck to cover the adams apple.

I agree with others who said to get your eyebrows done. You're almost getting a unibrow there girl. Pull the insides away farther and it will further enhance the wideness of your eyes and face as being wider and more heart shaped. Pull the centers so they are slightly further out from the center of your face than the inner crease of your eyes.

See for yourself:

I don't think there is an adams apple, I think that is the larynx and if so, it will take a fair amount of weigh gain to cover it. I had a shave and it removed the bump but I still have a after photo showing pretty much the same thing. I would also like to see the hair restyled somehow so the forehead is covered a bit more. The face works with some forehead, just not that much. Other than that, the face works well and I wouldn't consider surgery.