Can us Nulls just go by the term 'Angel'?

Quote from: Steph on November 21, 2007, 04:39:31 PM

Quote from: Alison on November 21, 2007, 04:26:36 PM
The word "Androgyne" at it's roots means "male/female"  (Andro/Gyne)  So it doesn't seem to cover null/neutrois/non gendered just by the roots of the word.

Any thoughts?

Valid point Alison but in the following:

Quote from: WikipediaAndrogyny is a term derived from the Greek words ανήρ (anér, meaning man) and γυνή (gyné, meaning woman)[1] that can refer to two concepts regarding the mixing of both male and female genders or having a lack of gender identification. The first is the mixing of masculine and feminine characteristics, be it the example of the loud fashion statements of David Bowie, Jeffree Star, Boy George, Brian Molko, Marilyn Manson, Annie Lennox, and Visual Kei musicians, or the balance of "anima" and "animus" in psychoanalytic theory. The second is in describing something that is neither masculine nor feminine, for example the Hijras of India who are often described as "neither man nor woman" or angels which are often portrayed as genderless.

One may also interpret Androgyne as neither nor male/female

I'm not trying to cause trouble in your forum, just tossing some ideas out there as the forum seems to be in a bit of a quandary.

Steph

I've seen that before Steph, but it almost seems like a contradiction in terms.

www.dictionary.com says:

Quote
an·dro·gyne      /ˈændrəˌdʒaɪn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[an-druh-jahyn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   an androgynous plant.
2.   an androgynous person, as one who chooses unisex clothing.
3.   a female pseudohermaphrodite.
4.   a being of ambiguous sexual identity; one that combines major aspects of both the male and the female.

and

Quoteandrogyne

noun
one having both male and female sexual characteristics and organs; at birth an unambiguous assignment of male or female cannot be made [syn: hermaphrodite]

So saying "I'm a null androgyne" is an oxymoron.


*edit*

I just wanted to add-  I'm not subtracting anyones gender identity, I'm just curious as to the meaning of the word etc... So to anyone who does identify as 'null androgyne' I apologize for using you as an example to make my point.

you can't offend me, i'm made of tougher stuff.

i'd strictly call my self pre-gendered androgyne 'cos null or neutrois seems to imply a wish to eradicate external gender signs, where i feel my androgyne status is equal to that of a baby before self definition and initiation into a given gender begins. i am not overly bothered about having a male body because it's mine, and so not gendered in my eyes. Besides we've had so much fun together.

But to have my own wiki page to explain the model i have adopted just for myself seems a bit loopy. And to get offended that someone may want to define me loosely so they can get some handle on the subject, and so learn more, sounds even loopier.

I am dead happy to be simplified if it helps people understand me a little more. a start is a start,

Quote from: Pica Pica on November 21, 2007, 07:16:16 PM
you can't offend me, i'm made of tougher stuff.

i'd strictly call my self pre-gendered androgyne 'cos null or neutrois seems to imply a wish to eradicate external gender signs, where i feel my androgyne status is equal to that of a baby before self definition and initiation into a given gender begins. i am not overly bothered about having a male body because it's mine, and so not gendered in my eyes. Besides we've had so much fun together.

How do you explain this message that was found on your body -

QuoteDear Pica Pica,
                 Our time together has been great but I must insist that you keep your hands to yourself.

love,

your corporeal self 

I'd tell it that I had been keeping my hands to myself, and I hope it had enjoyed it. >

I'm not sure the root of 'androgyne' is really applicable as far as inclusion is concerned.  I would concentrate more on how androgyne people use it today.  I think most of us would include "both" and "neither/null", despite the original meaning...just like 'gay' and 'queer' no longer mean 'happy' and 'strange'.

I do like "pre-gendered", though.

Quote from: Rebis on November 21, 2007, 09:53:37 PM

How do you explain this message that was found on your body -

QuoteDear Pica Pica,
                 Our time together has been great but I must insist that you keep your hands to yourself.

love,

your corporeal self 

Quote from: Pica Pica on November 22, 2007, 01:53:18 AM
I'd tell it that I had been keeping my hands to myself, and I hope it had enjoyed it. >

umm...

Quote from: Steph on November 21, 2007, 06:52:05 AM

Quote from: Seshatneferw on November 21, 2007, 06:39:00 AM
The way I see it, androgyne is one of the genders in a non-binary system.

Just my 2 cents but I believe that the term Androgyne refers to "The person" a person who is genderless, between genders, non-gendered etc.  If the word androgyne is to be considered one of the genders in a non-binary system, doesn't that contradict the definition?

It's more a matter of viewpoints.

If you want to describe androgyne in terms that originate in the gender-binary, 'a person who is genderless or between genders' is a pretty good description. If, on the other hand, you subscribe to a trinary gender system, androgyne is 'a member of the gender that is neither male nor female'. Neither of these views is ultimately better than the other; it's just a matter of how you look at the gender variation and divide it into concepts.

Quote from: Alison on November 21, 2007, 04:26:36 PM
The word "Androgyne" at it's roots means "male/female"  (Andro/Gyne)  So it doesn't seem to cover null/neutrois/non gendered just by the roots of the word.

Not etymologically, no. Still, etymology is not everything -- for example, woman goes back to Old English wífmon, which is a compound of wíf 'woman; wife' and mon 'man; human' and thus pretty similar to androgyne. What a word means nowadays is more a matter of how it is currently used than of how it came to be originally.

Whether androgyne covers the null-gendered in addition to the intergendered is really a matter of how many genders one wants to have. Personally, I'd understand androgyne in a three-way system to cover them, but all in all I think three genders are too few to be useful over here. Mostly I'd prefer a five-gender system that has male, female, null-gendered, bi-gendered and intergendered. Still, that's just the way I have been looking at genders lately.

  Nfr

The word 'androgyne' now gives me an empirical headache.   

I just started to understand the meaning of 'pre-gendered'.  It just may apply to me better than Null, but I'm not sure because of my body issues.

yeah but I made pre-gendered up, it may not mean nuffink.

exactly.  If I have a made up word, no one can dispute it.  Except you because you made it up.  I need my own word that can't be tinkered with.

Quote from: Rebis on November 22, 2007, 02:40:53 PM
The word 'androgyne' now gives me an empirical headache.   

True dat.

Quote from: Alison on November 22, 2007, 09:57:08 PM

Quote from: Rebis on November 22, 2007, 02:40:53 PM
The word 'androgyne' now gives me an empirical headache.   

True dat.

Aren't you confusing empirical with empire? Imperial sounds more like the word you both are looking for. Like, one step up from royal.

  Nfr

Quote from: Alison on November 22, 2007, 09:57:08 PM

Quote from: Rebis on November 22, 2007, 02:40:53 PM
The word 'androgyne' now gives me an empirical headache.   

True dat.

I can relate. It seems that no matter which word I use, androgyne, genderqueer, non-op ts, m2f2?, non-binary gender variant, multi-gendered, neither, gender outlaw, queer, sissy, faerie, none of the above... none of these come close to truly describing what it feels like to be me.

Dr Z says take two aspirin, and/or a shot of whiskey, and we'll feel better in a century or two when it doesn't matter anymore what gender we are. 

y2g

it's more of Linnaean headache.

Sexually innert?

Cindy

not going to do a viagra advert are you?

"Hee, hee, hee, hee." I'm afraid I'm out of the sausage business.
OK me go back and hide in my hole.

Cindy

I honestly do not know if it is imperical or empirical.  I thought IM, but the internet threw back EM

either way, it hurts.   

My brain hurts!

  Nfr