ok so I know for most this is complex and not black or white... but I have noticed this with many "trans friendly" people or even trans people themselves...this whole "im attracted to women" (or men) but what this actually means is cis women or possibly an extremely passable post op if there "really open minded"  ..... as someone whos always only liked guys, males, men, masculinity and never girls at all but who is perfectly open to dating a pre or post op ftm guy (that's if I wasn't with my current new bf of course lol) it just seems really shallow but even more so just plain transphobic...lets forget about the whole pre op post op issue for a sec and get back to that later but I just feel like its assuming one "all trans people are unattractive and not feminine or masculine looking enough for me to be attracted" two it assumes all trans people have a body that wouldn't be appealing to them for whatever reason and it reeks of "there not real men/women"...clearly number one is not true...just as some cis people wont be attractive to you many trans wont too but there are trans girls as gorgeous as kim Kardashian(Gigi gorgeous, Carmen Carrera, Jenna Talakova, and lots of those porn star girls too just to give a few examples) and ive seen some smoking ftm guys just on this site... same goes for the second as all cis peoples and trans peoples bodies are different...find fake boobs unattractive? well many trans women can have real ones too...like muscles? plenty of trans guys have them. So both number one and two are bogus and I wont even go in to number three as that shouldn't need an explanation here... the post op pre op discussion is more complex... obviously if someone is post op and you liked them until you found out they were trans rejecting them is very transphobic, but preop I think it is more complicated but I still think in most cases it is transphobic and shallow to reject someone who you would otherwise really like and be attracted to just based off a part...in general attraction and even sex are more about the whole person mentally and physically not just there parts down there...I do think how you prefer to have sex has a lot to do with whether its shallow and transphobic to reject a partner on that alone..if people want me to elaborate on what I meant on that last part I will but what are your thoughts on this issue?

takes one to know one

I am close friends with a young trans woman (full time) who is pre-op with no HRT and has a cute-as-a-button cis female girlfriend. The amount that she (the trans girl) passes or not is not a part of their equation together in love. It's really no different than any other relationship. I don't even think twice about it.

There are just so many circumstances... Such as- the general open mindedness of the "pool" of people you surround yourself with. That can vary greatly by geography and culture within sects. Being openly trans is definitely harder in some places compared to others, but it also depends a lot on attitude- which plays heavily into the attractiveness (or unattractiveness) of a person. When I think about what makes a person attractive, it's usually a combination of a lot of factors- three of the big hitters being presentation, personality, and sexual compatibility based on what I am into.

Sexual compatibility is not limited to a trans issue either. Cis population gets plenty of its fair share of incompatibilities, too It is a personal preference, and there is nothing wrong with knowing what you like. Surround yourself with people who you think might be a good match, and you will probably find that match eventually as long as you keep a good attitude. Cis folk have to do the same thing.

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 26, 2015, 04:47:49 AM
I am close friends with a young trans woman (full time) who is pre-op with no HRT and has a cute-as-a-button cis female girlfriend. The amount that she (the trans girl) passes or not is not a part of their equation together in love. It's really no different than any other relationship. I don't even think twice about it.

There are just so many circumstances... Such as- the general open mindedness of the "pool" of people you surround yourself with. That can vary greatly by geography and culture within sects. Being openly trans is definitely harder in some places compared to others, but it also depends a lot on attitude- which plays heavily into the attractiveness (or unattractiveness) of a person. When I think about what makes a person attractive, it's usually a combination of a lot of factors- three of the big hitters being presentation, personality, and sexual compatibility based on what I am into.

Sexual compatibility is not limited to a trans issue either. Cis population gets plenty of its fair share of incompatibilities, too It is a personal preference, and there is nothing wrong with knowing what you like. Surround yourself with people who you think might be a good match, and you will probably find that match eventually as long as you keep a good attitude. Cis folk have to do the same thing.

well I'm not so much looking for any kind of advice just opinions on the attitude I described

Quote from: Tessa James on May 26, 2015, 04:22:55 AM
takes one to know one

im confused??

There are plenty of trans people who have internalised transphobia, even after they've acknowlegded they are trans. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if a trans person had "issues" about being in a relationship with a trans person...They have a hard enough time being in relationship with themself. I think a lot of it boils down to self acceptance, respect and chemistry.

If you had asked me two years ago (about a month before I started HRT) whether I would date a trans woman I probably would have said no, but I feel very differently now. If I found a person who I was attracted to (body, heart, mind) and we had the chemistry then I wouldn't hesitate.

Quote from: Annabolton on May 26, 2015, 04:51:49 AM
well I'm not so much looking for any kind of advice just opinions on the attitude I described

Sorry if it seemed like my comment was directed at you, it wasn't at all- I was speaking to the audience

You seem to know your way around just fine!

Quote from: Annabolton on May 26, 2015, 04:52:39 AM
im confused??

Just trying to be succinct.  Who might better understand and appreciate the charms and special nature of a trans partner than a another trans person?  Who might better understand our needs and challenges?  I would guess trans people are even more capable of being great partners for a trans person.  But lets hope we hear from the trans couples......

We know that some trans people don't even want to be around others of our kind as we might out them.  We know people who won't date someone shorter, taller, or fatter than them too but labelling something as transphobia, in this case, might suggest I know what they think and I'm not clairvoyant.  I try to assume less and understand more

Creativity and desire count more than, well, you fill in the blanks.  Knowing exactly what we want and finding fulfillment may be harder as we narrow the options?  I am all for the big tent approach.

No, the same way it's not racist to prefer dating a certain race or it's not homophobic to swing one way or you're not a bigot because you don't want to date someone because of their religious or political views.

Like I said elsewhere, at least among the younger crowd in California that I've run into, the story that cis lesbians are transphobic doesn't seem to be the case, but what I've been discovering is that trans lesbians are not uncommonly transphobic.

Well I've decided to be pan-flexible.

Just in case, you know.

I am personally not interested in dating other transfolks any longer. I've dated four now (over the course of the last 6 years - three FTMs and one MTF, all in varying stages of transition). But my reasoning leans less towards the physical and more toward the mental aspects of the relationship.

It isn't a matter of not being attracted for me. They were all very attractive people physically and had great personalities to match. For me it's more the constant dealing with one person's or both people's dysphoria. Everyone seems to treat theirs a little differently and has different coping mechanisms. And despite the fact that at least two of the people I've dated were well along in their transitions and would have described themselves as very happy with their bodies, the underlying dysphoria was a constant issue emotionally and mentally for them.

That, coupled with my own dysphoria, is incredibly draining. It is so much easier in my experience to date a knowledgeable, affirming cis person. I don't think it's inherently transphobic to feel this way. It's just that experience has shown that I am much more likely to experience depression and anxiety when I've dated other transpeople. No relationship, no matter how much they might understand and get what I'm going through, is worth that mental hardship.

I am open minded, I will date the right person when I am ready, based on whether I like them and the ability to stimulate each other (conversation etc...) and we would enjoy similar pastimes (like Skiing  )
I don't think I would show any bias based on gender, CIS or trans...

Just my thoughts on it...
L Katy

Maybe if I hired male-only manservants, that would be a problem.

nah who am I kidding!

ftmax — you make a really interesting point; it would seem like dating a transperson would not infrequently come with a bunch of additional baggage that one wouldn't get if one were to date a cisperson, and that line of reasoning makes sense. 

Hmm... that's really too bad that that makes sense with what it says about the predicament many trans people find themselves in compared to non-trans people...

I have to second what ftmax has said here, I think I may have noticed that myself. Since transitioning I have only really "dated" or "been with" two other trans women until three days ago when I went on a date with a cis girl. I am a monogamous type, and it's not like I am flippant with my interests at all when it comes to intimacy. Usually when I become interested in someone, it is because I can see a future with them and has very little to do with sex. Anyway, I ran into some tough emotional situations with one of the trans girls due to the conflicting dysphoria theory ftmax mentioned. It seemed great at first- almost perfect! ...because as trans people we inherently share so much in common and face a lot of the same issues. However, ftmax is right... We all cope with the issues differently, have different timelines, different triggers, the list goes on.

Lately, I've been feeling more attracted to the idea of trying to date a cis female again, and I wasn't sure quite why. The aforementioned does kinda click in my head. As if I was already thinking it, but hadn't been able to put it to words.

Thanks for helping me possibly make some sense out of it!

The reasons ftmax mentioned are why I would shy away from dating a trans person.

In the end I just want to live and forget about being trans. Being with a trans person kind of makes that not very possible. That said it is still possible just not preferable.

Quote from: SarahBoo on May 26, 2015, 06:38:15 AM
Maybe if I hired male-only manservants, that would be a problem.

nah who am I kidding!

Ftmax really mentioned something that reminded me that when we take on the other persons problems in our own relationships it can be to much for us sometimes. I forgot about that fact until he pointed out clear example of why sometimes, despite the idea that they will understand us better, dating another trans person might be to much. Thanks for pointing that.
Mariah

My preferences are related to the excellent points that ftmax and Jennygirl have brought up.  I don't really have any dysphoria anymore so it's not really a conflicting dysphoria thing with me.  What does bother me is that with someone who still has a lot of dysphoria, I would by default be put in a near full time mentor/guide role and that is not a dynamic I particularly want.  I like being a mentor and guide, but I also have to be able to walk away from it at times, and I don't like being in a dominant position in a relationship on a near constant basis.  I would have to really "fall" for someone for me to want to do that again.  I have no issues dating someone who is far enough into transition that bouts of dysphoria are fairly rare.  The sex aspect of a trans/trans relationship is also generally not a determining factor for me.