I am opening a different thread on a very specific topic: when people are polite and we take it as passing. For instance, I know someone who works in retail and she told me that anytime a trans person or cross-dresser comes, she refers to them as "she" even though the person is not passable. When the person in question leaves, usually, other workers make comments. To that person, this means passing because she was called "ma'am". Correct?

Another example: I thought I passed with a group of acquaitances. One of the girls treated me as nothing but a woman... we talked about period, pregnancy, even she asked me if I had a feminine napkin one. All of that, until I found out that, behind my back, they were referring to me as he, he/she or it.

I am not saying we should care or not. That is NOT my point here. My point is that it is virtually impossible to know if you are really passing or people are just pretending not to notice things.

This is an important thing to bring up, but I want to point out that some situations exist in which you can tell with almost absolute certainty if you have passed (usually, visually). Street harassment from males is one of them, particularly when you are walking near to the men in question. If you are not passable, you are not going to get catcalled the way a passable (though usually also attractive) ciswoman might; you will get silence, mockery, or abuse of some kind. Because the kind of men who harass women like this usually come from a social sphere in which heteronormativity is prized above all else, these men will usually be careful to either not catcall you if you are unpassable or, if they 'make a mistake,' to immediately verbally abuse you afterwards to 'correct' the mistake, so as not to 'lose face' amongst their crew.

You can also make an educated guess about passing in retail situations if you enter a store that is either all for (cis)women or that has historically barred transwomen from entering dressing rooms, and you ask to go to the women's dressing room to try on clothes. If you are let in without a second glance or anything unusual, you're probably passing. Beyond that, if you pay for your clothes at the cashier's and she or he is treating you normally until you speak, and then they do a kind of double-take, this means you passed prior to speaking, or you at least had not fully confirmed a suspicion they may have had.

So some situations do exist in which you can tell. But it is unfortunate that some people are polite to our faces and arses behind our backs. Transphobia is still far, far too commonplace, but I think a lot of it will disappear as trans* issues become more and more internationally visible.

Reposted from closed topic after I removed it from there:

After a certain amount of time went by with my transition I wasn't much bothered anymore about trying to screen my face with hair.  I pretty much wear my hair in a high ponytail all the time now even though I'm fairly plain faced as well as having inherited my grandmother's broad 'coal barge' jaw.  To my mind impractical hairstyles and poor wig choices are far more likely to attract closer inspection from the general public than simply dressing and presenting the same as the general female population.

You do raise a good point though teresita that it's likely that folk do notice that a TG woman is different, but most people are either not bothered or are polite enough not to say anything.  I live in a small country town and around here if you are of basically good character and are friendly in manner you get accepted no matter what you look like.

I suspect that it's often a case of politeness. Mainly beacuse (I believe) you can generally pick trans people.

I have no problem with politeness. As I've said in another thread, it is a sign that society is progressing on trans issues. Slowly but surely.

I agree with Sarah Booh. I still have to see a transsexual who is very passable. I think we should give up on the idea of passing, altogether. I am ok with politeness, too, but I am not okay with people talking behind my back and saying "it"/



Mod Edit- Disputing moderator actions in the public parts of the site is against TOS 2.

 
I guess we will try this again. Topic locked.

Quote from: Susan on July 27, 2006, 07:45:44 PM

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Topic Reopened.

I know I don't pass 100%, that's obvious from the mix of genders people respond to me with.. I can get ma'am and sir in the space of 10 minutes.. Now, those that call me ma'am provide an interesting question - am I passing or are they just being polite? My gut says to go with being polite, but there have been some situations that cause me to question that. I've been out with an exGF several times and had people we'd just met not believe I was trans - I was outing myself in the process of explaining that no, the exGF and I are not a couple, haven't been for quite some time and it was long before I transitioned.. Ad there was no way they were being polite, the look of stunned disbelief on their faces was all to obvious.. But they also didn't seem to entirely believe that the exGF and I weren't together..

Their disbelief I can't explain.. Thinking the ex and I were a couple I can, our breakup was not a messy one, just a simple agreement from both of us that it was time to go our own way, as a result, we still have a level of comfort with each other that is normally only found in couples.. Add to the fact I was the only one with a bag and purse.. On one night, we were having an 'our money' night, meaning we'd both thrown some cash in my purse and who spent want didn't matter..

To be honest, I've long since given up wondering if I pass or people are just being polite - I'm too busy living my life for that. I am who I am and I know there are people who love me for that.

What what? I see no rebel forces around here!

My signs of passing don't point to politeness at all. When people want to "sir" me they will and it is usually when I'm wearing very big men's clothing. Even so, on first glance I don't get a gendered greeting. Only when I talk and after a few sentences do I get a "sir" or "buddy" or something.

Early on in transition when my hair was really short, I had an employee call me "sir" in a store, I think it was MAC or something. This despite being dressed up very feminine.

I think the only people who really "play along" are people who see my ID like the clerks at walmart who card me for every damned thing now, carb spray, super glue etc. I swear, it's so annoying and frightening to show my ID because i know I will be misgendered. But I know that they are being nice because they see the very male picture of me on my driver license yet greet me properly anyway.

Outside I know I pass because I don't get stares, laughs or anything. If you aren't passing some people will at least mock or ridicule you. I pass by a high school every day full of teenage kids who I did see mock a gay couple walking down the street. They don't give me a second look.

Once I was using the self checkout line at the grocery store and I had a problem scanning my frequent shopper card on my phone. I pressed the help button, the clerk came over, "do you have a screen protector on your phone, ma'am?" Then I spoke, and she muttered "sorry, sir."

Things like that.

Strangely enough I get very little in the way of catcalls but no negative male attention either. I do get guys holding doors and elevators open for me, all the time now. And I'm even talking about TV talent, and even one high exec in our company held the door for me.

Quote from: teresita on June 04, 2015, 11:43:03 PM
I agree with Sarah Booh. I still have to see a transsexual who is very passable. I think we should give up on the idea of passing, altogether. I am ok with politeness, too, but I am not okay with people talking behind my back and saying "it"/



Mod Edit- Disputing moderator actions in the public parts of the site is against TOS 2.

Most people have a limited education in what we are. They use terms like "it' because they don't have anything better and they talk behind our back an attempt to learn more. Unfortunately what they learn is often wrong. As one of the very few I feel an obligation to educate anybody who has the nerve to face me with a question about me. Yes I have found there was a second conversation going on that I wasn't aware of but it's going to happen and there is little I can do to change it. I try hard to make everybody comfortable in my presence because even if the topic never comes up, they will know I am a good person to be around. Many people just don't want to know more and that is displayed by my neighbors. I introduce myself to my neighbors when they first moved in about a year ago. Because the wife stays home she has far to much time on her hands so we started talking. I came out to her about  a month ago because of a number of clues she was dropping. Turned out she figured it out the first time she saw me because of my voice issues. We have had many long discussions and her mind is blown but she is comfortable with me. This information gets back to her husband who treats me well but has no interest in talking to me about my past. Two different people with two different attitudes.
I would like to live in a world where we treat others as people first and topics like this are just an adjective on who we are but it is going to take a long time before we get there. It is possible the Jenner thing will open up more conversations but this will remain an issue for a long time to come.

Hi Kelly_Aus,

you wrote:

"I've long since given up wondering if I pass or people are just being polite - I'm too busy living my life for that. I am who I am and I know there are people who love me for that."

I applaud you, but that was not my question. The topic is not about caring if you pass or not. The topic was about the fact that sometimes we think we pass just because people are gendering us out of politeness. Again, whether you care or not, it is a completely different issue. In my experience, most people just don't know how to handle a situation where a transsexual is present. Some will feign disbelief (I have experienced that too many times) while, on the opposite pole, there will be people who will tell you they knew when they didn't. Trust me on this: I have met many people who feigned disbelief.

I remember also meeting a guy at a Starbucks and making sure he NEVER saw my hands. He was the one asking for my phone number and chatting with me. We sat down. It was cold, I had long sleeves covering the hands. When I returned home, I texted him and said that I was a trans woman. He said he knew and he could TOTALLY tell by my hands (He NEVER SAW MY HANDS!). He said he was not interested in a trans-woman, yet, I asked him why he approached me and he said out of politeness.

What I am saying is that it is very hard to gauge from what people say. Some will be overly nice and I appreciate that, some will say stupid stuff like the hands. Think about it: if it was REALLY the hands what clocked us, we would all move to Siberia and wear gloves. I know it is not the hands, contrary to popular belief. However, I have had my share of people who clocked me and pretended they didn't, or, who didn't clock me and pretend they did.

Just throwing this out there...

just because some people might be able to tell that you're trans, that doesn't mean that they're seeing you as a man, or that they're devaluing you as a person.

I realized this a long time ago when I first met my trans friends Arianna and Ariel. Yes, I know they're trans. But the thing is, there's a certain point of passability where even if people can tell, even if you look more like a trans woman than a cis woman, people don't care. I can't even imagine the two of them as having ever been male. It just doesn't even occur to me. And it's the same deal with the people who I'm out as trans to at work. Yes, they know I'm trans. But they've only ever known me as a woman, so they can't even imagine me any other way. To them, me being trans doesn't mean that my femininity is invalid, or just a facade or something, because it's who they know me as. They can't imagine me having been any other way.

Many of my friends have said that even though they know, they forget a lot of the time, because it just doesn't occur to them that I was ever any other way.

So yeah... just posting this to try and stave off some of the inevitable self-hatred and dysphoria that I know the concept of "no one ever really passes" causes a lot of people. It's okay. I've seen LOTS of trans women, actually I'll even say most trans women in my age group, reach that point where you simply can't imagine them having ever been male. So again, even if people can tell, that doesn't mean that you're being looked down upon or seen as fake or any of that nonsense that we torture ourselves with due to internalized transphobia.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on June 05, 2015, 03:22:32 AM
So again, even if people can tell, that doesn't mean that you're being looked down upon or seen as fake or any of that nonsense that we torture ourselves with due to internalized transphobia.

That's the truth.

Yes, we will get picked for being trans much of the time. I don't underestimate other people's powers of perception.

But as you say Carrie, that just doesn't matter. Our worst critics live within.

Regardless of gender, if one lives with their head up, and a sense of self-worth, *that* is what people will see, and that is what they will respond to.

I am surprised at how many people think most of us don't pass. I think this thread came up sone time ago and the general consensus was different.  Along the lines of people kinda gender at first glance and don't think about trans unless you stand out. Not taking either side just surprised at how different the answers were.

That's my opinion, certainly.  People don't really scrutinise each other in most situations, and I doubt the concept of someone being trans is a thing for most people.  Obviously it's impossible to know what another person is thinking or feeling unless they articulate it, and it's pointless to try to infer it if they don't -- we only end up projecting our own fears and insecurities on to them.  I wouldn't find it helpful to walk around with an attitude of 'yeah, but what are they really thinking?'.  I take it for what it is, and I'm inclined to think that when people treat me a certain way, that's how they're feeling about me.  Second-guessing everyone all the time would drive me crazy.

(I guess I'll mention again that I wear my hair down and don't do much with it beyond brushing.  )

I'll start off again by saying that yes, of course, there's no way to know what total strangers are really thinking.  Basically, I totally agree with Cat on this one; people see what they want to assume, and there's no point in driving myself nuts wondering. Usually, though, friends, acquaintances, coworkers, etc. will come out with it eventually, if only behind our backs... and I'm so sorry that you've had that experience from people who were so cruel.

I've thought about this some more, and I've realized that for me it comes down to the fact that middle-aged women are invisible. We don't get stares or smirks or second looks. I know I'm blending in (and I use that term deliberately, because my greatest goal was not to stand out from the cis population) when nobody pays attention to me at all. People are polite, but treat me as unremarkable and don't do that double-take thing.

I also find myself in situations, albeit blessedly less and less, where like Kelly I have to tell people I transitioned because my old name popped up on my mortgage or credit report or tax return, and they either argue with me that they need my "ex-husband" or they get this poleaxed expression and cannot absorb the information. Bank tellers will not be polite to the point that it takes them 15 minutes of struggling and failing to grasp the idea that I changed my name. I've nicknamed it the "blue screen face" because they just shut down completely for a minute trying to cope with this thing that's totally outside their experience. It's annoying and frustrating, actually, but it does establish that "used to be a man" or whatever is not percolating easily through their minds.

All bets are off, of course, when someone already knows the story, so the real problem is people who out me behind my back. I like to be in control of when and how that story is told, but I'm not surprised that gossip sometimes overrides common sense. And *then* I will occasionally hear about someone who learned about my past and decided to say something nasty when I wasn't there.

Quote from: Pebblez on June 05, 2015, 04:06:21 AM
I am surprised at how many people think most of us don't pass. I think this thread came up sone time ago and the general consensus was different.  Along the lines of people kinda gender at first glance and don't think about trans unless you stand out. Not taking either side just surprised at how different the answers were.

I think the reality is a bit of both, however the desire of people within the community to believe they pass may affect the apparent outcome of any discussion. Its not nice for someone in the early stages of transition to believe that they are on a road with a possible outcome that they may always be spottable to someone with the determination to do so, because most are pining for that impossible dream of never having been whatever sex they are trying to transition from.

Another side is this: people observing often back project knowledge later acquired. For example when you are voluntarily "out" because you have told someone they will later tend to back project that knowledge and imagine that they "knew" all along, when in fact they probably didn't.

Thirdly as its not practical for spotters to go up to every person that they suspect of being trans this is not really scientific or valid, because my guess is that actaully those that do spot a few transpeople also wrongly spot a whole group of ordinary folks who just happen to have some gender atypical qualities.

In fact in so far as it is proper to do this I have, for some time put this to the test in my role as a medical student who is now at the point of seeing patients. In that time I have observed a number of people who you would have been 100% SURE, on casual social interation, were trans - only the thing is I can tell you for 100% SURE that none of them actually were!

So ultimately what this really reinforces is that obsession with passing is probably focussing on the wrong thing. It isnt healthy or helpful. Instead I suggest trying to focus more on being comfortable as yourself, and forgeting about what other people may or may not see. Afterall you are transitioning for your own benefit, not theirs, so do what makes you feel comfortable and don't worry about "them".

Like the previous poster suggested, the only trouble you then have is gossip, because of course, such gossip is often innacurate, a fact which is unfortunately probably not helped by the sheer diversity of our community, and indeed may lead to misunderstandings, because as observed in other threads some people have rather limited understanding of what all this is about.

The good news however is that 30 years post, I'm still here, and still a repected member of the community, so ultimately I guess it doesnt do as much harm as we might all fear.

Quote from: teresita on June 04, 2015, 09:14:54 PM
My point is that it is virtually impossible to know if you are really passing or people are just pretending not to notice things.

That's where that thread "you know you really pass when" comes from. There are times (like when the doctor asks whether you have vaginal bleeding or when a store clerk tells you that you can't use your husband's card) that someone asks a question that would make no sense if they knew your history.

suzi- exactly!