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My recent VFS with Dr Haben.

Started by Elaine S, June 04, 2015, 06:41:17 PM

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Elaine S

Hello all. I decided to re register after an absence and offer my experience with Dr. Haben's VFS procedure.

First off a note to mod's and Admin: if I have ran afoul of any rules or protocols please PM or email me as I don't wish to aggravate anyone. I just wanted to offer another review of my experiences.

Anyway, I scheduled surgery with Dr Haben in late May and was fit in with an appointment about a short 2 weeks out so we decided to drive rather than fly. I found the pre-op experience to be comprehensive and Dr Haben himself to be quite pleasant and forthcoming on what can and can't be expected with VFS.

I REALLY wanted to avoid a tracheal scar as I didn't need a trach shave so went for the minimally invasive endoscopic feminization (glottoplasty) laryngoplasty knowing from my phone calls scheduling the surgery that if the CTA was ABSOLUTELY deemed necessary it was no problem to add it on at the time of the pre-op consult. I wasn't making the surgery about a bottom line number, just what was needed.

During the the pre-op consult one goes though a visual exam of the vocal cords and larnyx via a larengeoscope optical lighted camera probe after numbing the inner throat with a rather nasty topical anesthetic. One reads the commonly used rainbow passage and then holds an EEEEE tone at the end.

After that the Doctor instruction me to go from the EEE in my "normal" (more on that in a bit) voice and then raise my voice in a glissando type sweep to my maximum pitch. I had a bit of a break in the upper end scale a little bit short of my max pitch due, as it turned out, to an issue with my vocal cords not completely closing completely.

While we started the interview we chatted a bit about requisite health questions. And asked me my expectations from the surgery. I was informed to my great surprise that my baseline Speaking Fundamental Frequency was at 160Htz. To me I always in my minds ear was quite a bit lower in pitch.

I transitioned and had SRS more than 2 decades ago and have never had any formal voice training. I have simply adapted, I suppose through a sort of mimicry over the years but on the phone was still getting "sir'ed" about 1/2 the time and as time went on things seemed to get worse. I really don't talk lower as it hurts to do so and when meeting or saying "Hi" to an casual passer by I subconsciously always add a bit more pitch to my voice. I was emphatic in our consult about this. And as my wife (we got married in This past January when Fl. decided to finally make same sex marriage legal) was there, she also mentioned that the voice I was using is my standard, daily voice, not higher or lower. If it matters, I am a smudge under 6", slim and am within 10# from my ideal BMI.

The Doctor noted the incomplete closure of my cords and said it was a bad news/good news kind of thing in that bad they weren't closing fully but good in the sense that it was the area that would be sutured up during surgery and he expected things to go well. His estimation was at of at least 2/3rds of an octave in pitch and very possibly a full octave or more. I had done a great deal of research on this subject and was quite pleased that his comments meshed well, save for the possibility of an octave being possible at all, with my research on VFS.

Anyway, I was for some reason more nervous over this surgery than any before including FFS back in Nov of 2014 and some body contouring lipo 6 weeks prior to VFS (I may do a write up on this if anyone is interested as the result to me is nothing short of fantastic) just to rid myself of some stubborn deposits of lard that weren't going away despite EXTREMELY athletic exercise sessions of 1.5-2hours each, 3-5 times a week or more via cycling, floor exercises and some lighter free weights to tone targeted areas. Don't know why I was more nervous but once seated in the pre-op exam chair the anxiety melted away and that was that. Odd that...

The total cost BTW was $5257 which included 2 nights in a Merriott near the Unity Hospital in Rochester where the surgery took place, all hospital charges, all anesthesia charges and Dr fees. Rx cost was about filled at the Hospital pharmacy, was about $130.00 IIRC...

The day of the surgery was pretty smooth, check in wise and then off to get stuck with an iv and wait with my wife while various nurses and then the Anesthesiologist came in and did his thing. He hit me with a dose of Versed and we were off to the races I guess as I was out a very short time after a kiss to wifey and it seemed immediately like I was awake again in recovery.

My pain was about a 6-7 initially but quickly abated to a nominal level of about 3 or so. There was a spot on the lower inside of my mouth that was somewhat raw. My sense of taste was not really affected as some have noted and a porcelain cap on one of my front top teeth was completely undamaged. I was of course warned about the possibility of damage and simply planned on it and it was all gravy when nothing happened...

We left the hospital around 6 hours from an 8:30am check in and as there were no dietary restrictions (I have given up spicy foods in deference to taking the anti reflux omeprazole) had a veggie omelette at the Hotel restaurant. Yum!

Back in the room I took some of the cough syrup provided in my Rx package along with the omeprazole and started the Medrol Dosipack and took a half valium 10mg and slept very soundly. I will continue the omeprazole and to avoid spicy food till I at least get to 3 monts post op to avoid any problems with acids prematurely degrading the sutures. I was able to take my normal daily med's (Estradiol, Spironolactone, Levothyroxone) before surgery if I wanted but waited till after.

The next morning we got up, packed and went to a 11:30 post op follow up and was told all went extremely well and his estimates of pitch increase were still in place. he stated that he did about a 40% reduction though he says he does not do a precise measurement. I also met their voice therapist briefly and shortly we were heading on the long drive home. I initially planned on My wife having to drive but I was completely clear headed and did not take cough suppressant in the morning so I drove for the first 500 or so miles.

Anyway, that was then and today, is, well today. It is the first day I was permitted to talk (I accidentally started to speak or said what a total of about 8-9 times in the 7 days of self imposed mute-ness). Do be prepared for not talking as it is hard to do (or not do depending how one looks at it (;->), especially if one is a gregarious chatterbox like I. The hand signaling and writing of notes can be easily misconstrued by a spouse/partner/significant other, so apologize in advance and be ready to do so again and again... I had to do so a number of times  and may yet have to as I am being gentle on the voice.

My voice is is of course weak and my throat a bit more sore but pain is not really a 1 overall pain wise. I was advised to use my voice gently and sparingly for the first few weeks and follow what your body is telling you. My first words were a soft and somewhat croaky Good Morning to my wife this morning when she got up and I immediately noted an increased pitch even with the residual surgical larengitus and am being sparing in the use of my voice. I will make a recording in the coming days and try to keep up things as healing and recovery takes place to help others evaluate results. Unfortunately I do not have any pre op recordings but may be able to get the reading I did in Dr Habens office.

Would I do it again? Yes, I would. Time, of course, will ultimately prove what will be the result. Do your research and due diligence but I think it would be a good thing to include Dr Haben as a potential choice for VFS. Please feel free to ask questions and I will try to answer as I can.

Elaine 

Sorry for not fully comprehending all the posting protocols and typo's corrected his morning.


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Mariah

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Starfire

Elaine, thank you for sharing your experience.  Once I figure out my schedule for this summer, my plan is to get an in person consult with Dr. Haben.

I hope your recovery goes smoothly and you end up happy with your results.  I look forward to your updates.
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ainsley

Thank you for the write up.  I have an appt. for a consult with him in Aug.  I appreciate the information. 

I am curious why you are still taking Spiro after SRS, though?  Forgive me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that I would not need that after SRS....?  I went and had the camera put down my throat with the topical anesthetic like you described and sang the EEEEE tune for the Dr. at our local University here and he told me that the Spiro was causing dryness on my cords and the natural lubrication was lacking due to it, so I was really hoping to nix that after SRS in Aug.  Now I am confused.
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anjaq

Spiro after GRS? That sounds odd. After all it is a medication and not a hormone replacement, so it messes with your body in some ways :\

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Elaine S

Hello again.

Today is day 9 after VFS with Dr Haben and I thought I'd post a short clip of my voice I made today.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1BBzLgrTIJ1

Compared to yesterday my voice is a bit more steady though hoarse. I am not going to push it and am using it gently and for now, sparingly.

In the early am it is a bit more variable though. There is not really any pain at all, just a small bit of soreness in my vocal cord area. I will try and do an update here and there to let others hear how my voice sounds as things heal better.

Re: Spironolactone, I am using it as a diuretic for the short term and the Levothyroxine is for a hypothyroid condition.

Enjoy the day
Elaine
"Live up to your potential rather than down to others expectations"
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ainsley

I think that sounds good for 9 days out.
Keep the updates coming!
Some people say I'm apathetic, but I don't care.

Wonder Twin Powers Activate!
Shape of A GIRL!
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kwala

Quote from: Elaine S on June 05, 2015, 02:35:00 PM
Hello again.

Today is day 9 after VFS with Dr Haben and I thought I'd post a short clip of my voice I made today.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1BBzLgrTIJ1

Compared to yesterday my voice is a bit more steady though hoarse. I am not going to push it and am using it gently and for now, sparingly.

In the early am it is a bit more variable though. There is not really any pain at all, just a small bit of soreness in my vocal cord area. I will try and do an update here and there to let others hear how my voice sounds as things heal better.

Re: Spironolactone, I am using it as a diuretic for the short term and the Levothyroxine is for a hypothyroid condition.

Enjoy the day
Elaine

Thanks, Elaine, for sharing so many details about the procedure and for the audio update.  Your voice sounds so clear for so soon in your recovery!  Can't wait to hear more :)
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Elaine S

Hello again to all... I have been quite remiss in keeping up with my VFS experience.

I originally had my VFS with Dr. Haben on 27.May.2015 and reported on that in my initial installment, posting only one update. I apologize for not keeping up with it as I had planned. I thought it may be helpful to add to the data being compiled by others to perhaps help add another viewpoint in hopes of being of some use to others interested in VFS. Not keeping up has been counter to my original intent and again I apologize for my laxness.

My procedure was about as close to a non event as I have had for any surgery. Little pain and at day 9 my voice clip, to my ears, sounded not too bad. I am a cyclist to a rather fanatical degree and spend about 4 to 5 days a week spinning out the miles in my little slice of paradise.

I was cleared to beginning spinning rather gently at first on my bike on a Kentic cycling trainer on the Lanai here at home. On the 8th of June I did my first road ride with the blessing of Dr Haben. I was pretty low level for the ride and went about 17mi that day. The recording i made was done, I believe, was the next day.

In the following days and weeks I continued to ride about 5-6 days a week for the same 17 to 23 mile ride which is simply looping around my local area. Each additional loop adds about 5mi and add 1.7 out and back to the loop is the total. Not that that means much to most of you, but I thought I would try and paint a picture of my activities for your review.

Everything was going quite well. No real soreness in the throat. My pitch was definitely raised. I used PRAAT to the best I could find using the Rainbow Passage as a reference baseline as it was used in Dr Habens office of the pre-op consult was now about 200-210 hertz with out any effort to raise pitch, I did have to use more effort getting the words out though. I did note quite by accident early on, after the 8th day when I laughed a quiet little laugh it now came out as a rather nicely pitched giggle. It made me giggle all the more. My wife must have thought I was a bit daft but I really enjoyed that.

Breathiness seemed to limit my volume though I never experimented with elevated or extreme volume levels but could indeed go higher if I wanted but it involved more effort and I didn't want to strain anything. Throughout the day I would just be talking with my wife and some small interactions in normal life. BTW, my pre-op 160-ish htz as referenced in my pre-op visit, my "normal" voice, was not too terribly feminine sounding to my hearing anyway seemed to get me sir'ed about 1/2 the time on the phone, much to my frustration...

My diet specifically avoided spicy foods and ascitic drinks. I am not susceptible to gastric reflux on any sort of remotely regular basis and do not drink alcohol or soda (aside from perrier once in a while), smoke or do recreational drugs. I did smoke back decades ago for about 3-4 years maybe a pack a day max...

In addition to the 1 month of Prilosec RX I too the generic for another month and had no issues with GIRD nor any repercussions from the Prilosec in terms of stomach upset or nausea, etc...

Onward through weeks 2, 3, 4, and 5 post-op there were no real notable issues and my voice was stabilizing with just some trace of phlegm accumulating on my vocal cords from time to time. No real pattern, just sometimes more than others. Pretty much same-same.

My rides were about back to 2/3 speed and intensity now and sometimes I added to my distance to a total of 25-28mi in pretty warm weather. While riding I have great endurance but it is when I stop that I am wiped out tired and it takes at least 20 minutes for me to be able to really carry on a conversation at all. As a side note I did notice that I was getting slightly less air in per breath but this was of no notable consequence beyond observing it.

2 days after the 5 week mark, I felt an unusual tickle in my throat from what I assumed was my vocal cord area and in an effort to clear it, I exhaled making an H sound (like a huffing sound) if that makes sense and a small bit of greenish phlegm came up about the size of a small pea. Ordinarily I would have expelled it in a tissue and not thought anymore about it, but I noted a somewhat spikey texture to it so I put it on my fingernail and examined it. It was the stitch from the VFS surgery.

I was told things were healed at the 10 or so day mark provided one didn't do something stupid like shout or yell, but I was freaking out. I did feel an immediate bit of pain (about a 2.5 -3 out of 10) but no blood. I was really bummed out to find that the giggle was gone and some hoarseness returned almost immediately. Not horrible just noticeable.

I composed a letter to Dr Haben that day and he promptly responded that it was likely nothing but the stitch coming out early but he was reassuring that things would settle. Remember this is week 5 +2 days at this point.

When I send my 3 month post-op recording, he was still positive and stated that my pitch (arguably I did record on one of my better days) "was at B3, or around 240 hertz, dead center in the average female range!" To my ear it sounded less, but I realize I am my own worst critic. I am not sure what he uses for the reference of 240htz whether it is the recording average analyzed on his sensitive equipment or peak htz of my EEEEEEEE he requested in addition to the requisite rainbow passage. I did try for the ultimate highest I can go as I do not want to damage anything but I know I can go somewhat higher but that would definitely be reaching.

Going forward to mid September 2015, my voice was still definitely sounding off. I compared the 9 day post-op clip I posted to my voice and it wasn't just me, my wife noted the change. I was not back where I started but I did lose an easily recognizable amount. I tried the PRAAT program (I use an approximation of average NOT the highest or peak htz reading for all my references.)

And on to now...

I am scheduled to return to Dr Haben in mid December 2015 for an exam and second surgery, as another member so aptly used, ver 2.0.

I mentioned to Dr Haben previously that I am a self described "super healer" in that I tend to heal and recover much more rapidly than the norm. However that said, I am going to be extremely conservative in my convalescence and will be giving my voice and exercise program an extended rest period all in an effort to produce the best possible results. This time around, I am going to self impose a 1 month voice curfew (regardless which procedure may be employed) which Dr Haben concurs would be good idea and may well end up with a CTA depending on the results of the pre-op consult.

I initially and still prefer no scar on my neck but I do understand that in addition to a revision Larengioplasty/Glottoplasty, a CTA in conjunction with the Thyroid Chrondoplasty procedure(s) may quite possibly needed and have accepted it as reality in my mind already. I would plan on staying in the area until it is time to remove any stitches, if indeed the CTA is employed, in an effort to achieve maximal results. My thyroid bone is not all that prominent but if a CTA is deemed necessary then that a thyroid chondroplasty may as well be done too while he is already in there. Bottom line: Having my voice improved to me is so very much more important than another small scar that in a short time will be imperceptable.

I am extremely grateful for Dr Haben taking the time to squeeze me in before the Holidays as mine was apparently the last appointment available this year. While no one really enjoys the prospect of surgery, it will be a pleasure visiting him again as both my wife, Glenda, and I found him to be most knowledgable as well as very articulate, personable and willing to answer any questions we may have.

I was quite pleased with my last visit and strongly believe on giving credit where it is due. Conversely, I can only conclude that I must have done something wrong, as my initial voice recording was a marked improvement over the voice I previously had. Getting this done and behind me will be a great deal of stress offloading for me and a major improvement in my quality of life.

Thanks for reading and my best wishes to all, now and into the coming holiday season.

Be safe
Elaine









"Live up to your potential rather than down to others expectations"
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Lara1969

Maybe It is me but unfortunately I do not understand why you go back? Is your voice not better than before (what I assume)? Are you experience hoarseness?
I am scheduled for Dec, 16th for surgery with him. Maybe we meert there?
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jollyjoy

Sorry to hear the stitch came out, do you know why it did and how it would be possible for it to come out? Is it possibly due to the cycling and excercise?
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Dena

I was coming on the board about the time you had your surgery and I am very interested in seeing what happened to your voice. My surgery was July 15 and I couldn't talk until almost 2 weeks. At the 5 week mark, I lost  my voice for almost a week and I think it was the result of my body attacking the sutures. My voice still isn't fully recovered but it every week I notice small improvements in my voice. With the 3 month mark coming up, I suspect Dr Haben will decide another sample will be needed at the 6 month mark. So far I haven't noticed any loss of pitch and as my voice recovers, I seem to see improvements in my voice. I can no longer hit the lower ranges and I have greatly improved upper pitches.

I do a 3 mile walk every night to help with weight loss but I stopped it for over a month after surgery to give my voice additional time to recover after surgery. As my voice was about as low as they get, I wanted every Hz of improvement I could get out of the surgery. I also started a thread which might make good reading material on a sleepless night.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,192393.0.html
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Elaine S

Lara: My voice IS better than before but not like what I know it CAN be as evidenced to what it was prior to the stitch coming out. There will be a heavier gauge suture material used this time to hold longer and it may be deemed necessary for the CTA to get my maximal improvement with minimal effort. Also i would not be against a bit more pitch increase as well. I am about 6' tall and quite lean and athletic shaped. I do not sing other than badly (;->) and have no desire for any lower registers in my voice. I am returning to Dr Haben as I can only attribute anything that what ever may have gone awry with the stitch to something I may have done. It is obvious the procedure worked and it worked well. BTW, I have pre-op on 8.Dec and Surgery 9.Dec.

JollyJoy: Hi again, I have no idea what happened but I accept any responsibility for the recovery part as the Dr. has nothing to do with it. I was in Florida 1300 miles away. I did my best to follow instructions but now I do truly believe that additional enforced silence will benefit this surgery. As Dr Haben and I discussed, sometimes, despite the best efforts, things happen. I will do so this time as well as curtail ANY vigorous activity for at least a month in an effort to get the best result. That isn't a problem for me as I am retired. Perhaps my cycling and other exercises had something to do with it. I really do not know, but I was very pleased with the way things were going and was quite surprised that at the 5+ week mark, the stitch came out things changed and some hoarseness returned. Still, my voice so my fault. No one else's... I am not one to blame others, I just try and move forward.

Be safe and I wish you both the very best life has to offer.
Elaine
"Live up to your potential rather than down to others expectations"
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Elaine S

Dena:

Hello. I did read your posting and have followed a good many of the VFS threads that have been up this year. It is fascinating and listening to results brings me to tears to think of the benefits it will pay to those women in the future in terms of increasing their quality of life. Lovely indeed...

I was extremely surprised that at less than 2 weeks I could speak reasonably well though I did not try and abuse it. Not sure if it has to do with me healing with extreme rapidity, just lucky or what.

For the life of me, I cannot get a handle on why the stitch popped out. I still have it in a little container and will give it to Dr Haben to examine. It did not untie as it is the x shaped top section of the stitch that I saw in my pre and post-op photo sheet he gave me. 

Just one of those things I guess...

Anyway, I hope your progress rapidly increases and your voice quickly recovers. Please accept my hopes you have a wonderful holiday season.

Be safe
Elaine
"Live up to your potential rather than down to others expectations"
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iKate

Thanks for sharing. I had VFS with Dr Kim in Korea. He uses permanent sutures. Maybe this is the reason, he did not want to risk it coming out. Who knows. But I know I would be scared stiff if I saw that coming out of my mouth.
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Elaine S

Kate:

Hello. I did indeed have a panic attack once I figured what it was. Then I thought what was said about the length of time necessary for the healing to occur (a couple weeks for basic closure).

Trying to find a Dr here in my local area to scope and take a pix was an exercise in frustration. I tried to find someone who could  either take digital media shots or even a screen shot with an iPhone of the scope screen but I was flabbergasted and frankly disgusted that after 20+ calls to supposed ENT Dr's here, all but one did not have the imaging capability. The one that did would not copy or transmit my images period! I suppose to keep the biz for themselves.

After that frustration I just made the appointment for the consult with Dr Haben knowing I was quite satisfied with the previous visit. I know that something came adrift but not the whole larengioscopic procedure as my voice did not go back to its original state.

I forgot to mention in my original post and the long update posted today that I did have an asymmetry to my vocal cords either from misuse or something else. I had wondered if it could have been from a motorcycle crash where I took the handlebar very hard to my larynx back when I was a teen racing dirt bikes. I could not breathe for what seemed like forever but in actuality was likely about a minute or less as I squeezed and actually struck my throat trying to get air in. That was a really scary event and quite a few people saw it but made no effort to help as I was franticly trying to breath. At the time like drowning without the water.

Anyway, Dr. Haben did not think that played a role and he is likely right but I strongly suspect that incident damaged my thyroid (my GP Dr said it was a definite possibility) as it is underproducing and I am taking medicine for that to "wind my clock speed" up to where it should be. i have always had to work at keeping weight in check due to a slow metabolism. Not sure of the relationship between hypothyroidism and the asymmetry of my vocal cords, if any, but it was something I did bring up in the original pre-op consult.

In the distant past I have worked in some extremely loud work settings and had to occasionally really push my voice to carry over the industrial din. But my last career was relatively easy on the voice as everything was transmitted by microphone and intercom and though the external noise was extreme it was very easy to modulate and be understood at relatively low speaking volumes inside the cockpit.

I did very strongly consider going to Yeson but in the end preferred to stay in the states rather than travel abroad.

BTW, I heard a voice clip of yours and WOW, congratulations. I am very happy for your success. When listening to voice clips (for some reason I find it easier to analyze these clips with my eyes closed) yours in no manner would be read as other than a younger female. My wife said the same as she heard the clip when I heard it. As an aside, you mentioned somewhere shooting ranges. I too spent a great deal of time target shooting and some competitive handgun shooting, fun stuff.

It is so very heartening that there are at least options now for many to explore the possibility of having a good speaking voice. Options that were not available just a couple decades ago. Some respond very well to voice coaching and therapy but others may have somewhat less success for various reasons.

I do think that ones voice, arguably, is one of, if not the most important aspect of daily life needed to function in modern society, is often overlooked when dealing with the all the other difficulties transgender individuals face. There are so many tech savvy women that can telecommute as their skills might be able to be used with out an actual office presence or other typical business environment. Also, times have changed to where it is not really very news or gossip worthy being that there are many tens of thousands moving forward to life as it should have been from the start.

The benefits of such work can save much angst we all have faced at some point by being able to accomplish their transitions with relative anonymity, more so if ones voice is more closely matching their true gender identity. I previously mentioned that it brings me joy to see many people transitioning at a much younger age than previously seen as typical 20 years ago. I am so happy for the advances available for us to get on with our lives in a more expedient fashion wasting much less of our precious time getting our lives in the best alignment with our true selves.

I hope you have a fine evening
Elaine
"Live up to your potential rather than down to others expectations"
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