This question is not meant to be demeaning, and if the women on the forum choose not to answer, I understand.

I know little about all the HRT and surgical procedures  that transwomen go through, so it may be obvious to you. Several years ago, in the early 70's I came upon a newspaper article while baby sitting. It was about a transwoman who played tennis and the arguments surrounding whether or not she would have an unfair advantage over the cis women on the tour. (Obviously those words weren't used). I remember looking at her picture and feeling weird because her eyes looked male. When I meet someone, i usually notice their eyes before anything else.

Since being on this forum, I've not seen that in any of the women. Many are drop dead gorgeous, and there aren't any that I would even suspect did not start out life with a female body. So my question is, has the use of different hormones changed the eyes, or surgical procedures or both? I don't know if others notice, but to me there is a very obvious difference between the eyes of a genetic male and a genetic female. Any ideas of what it is that makes that change?

sam1234

Possibly a difference in hormone regimes.. But then, I'm not seeing anything 'male' about her eyes unless I'm going back to some very old pics, when, possibly, she had not been on hormones all that long..

I know my physical response to my HRT regimen now is different and much much better than it was in 1990. No surprise, different drugs = different response. Even so my face had feminised considerably after two years as it has now.

As to her eyes I cannot comment but maybe she hadn't long been in HRT when those pics you refer to were taken, maybe any number of other reasons. Maybe before the HRT she looked even more male in her eyes and the HRT had done all it could.

I know you didn't ask about sporting advantage but I'm curious about this. I presume genetic men and women have different skeletal structures which must lead to some musculature difference too. Even after being on HRT for many years and with their T levels the same as genetic women would a trans woman have comparable sporting abilities if they had similar training regimens to genetic women? In games of tennis against some girlfriends I am definitely the lesser player and yet my height is a massive advantage that lets me win points (by reaching the ball) when I otherwise would have lost.

Yes the HRT regimes have changed drastically and we are warned about possible changes in sight as our facial fat and muscles change. Just as an example, I had my eyes tested last year and the optician was amazed as my sight had improved so much my prescription had to be changed.

As for sport, the rules have changed as well. Trans*women who have been on HRT for (I think 2 years but it may be one) can now compete in the Olympics and all International sporting events. They are deemed to have no muscular advantage over cisfemales. The chromosome test for gender identity has now been dropped.

It would be fun to see if Caitlyn Jenner could compete in the female decathlon at the Olympics, now that would be a story!!

I got a new driving licence yesterday and compared to the old male one my eyes are different. It's a more open and generally feminine expression. I've not had facial surgery.

Ok that would be Renee Richards about 1977. As far as the actual eye, I don't think it changes but the skin around it accumulates a little extra fat softening the look. Renee Richards was pretty slender and may not have put that much extra fat into the face when transitioning. More current pictures might look different. Now if you want to really complicate things, I was born with two different eye colors - Brown and blue. The Blue eye came from my father and the Brown from my mother. I don't think the eyes look any different but the skin around the eye has change due to hormone exposure.

Quote from: Dena on June 14, 2015, 08:49:35 AM
Ok that would be Renee Richards about 1977. As far as the actual eye, I don't think it changes but the skin around it accumulates a little extra fat softening the look. Renee Richards was pretty slender and may not have put that much extra fat into the face when transitioning. More current pictures might look different. Now if you want to really complicate things, I was born with two different eye colors - Brown and blue. The Blue eye came from my father and the Brown from my mother. I don't think the eyes look any different but the skin around the eye has change due to hormone exposure.

There are people who reported their eye colour has changed... and their perception of colours


hugs

Quote from: Laura_7 on June 14, 2015, 08:59:22 AM
There are people who reported their eye colour has changed... and their perception of colours


hugs

I haven't notice a different in eye color or perception of colors but I didn't start paying attention to colors until I learned color darkroom processing after surgery. Now I saw a study a while a go indicating women had a better ability to detect different shades of red. The theory went as women were gathers, the ability to see different shades of red helped them avoid poison plants. This is interesting if the hormones determine our ability to perceive colors.

One of the things I did when first transitioning was stand in front of a mirror and see if I looked different depending upon how I "felt" inside.  To my surprise, it made a difference!  I looked more feminine when I completely accepted myself as female, and more masculine when I didn't.  While some of it was posture, by far the biggest difference was in my eyes.  They were larger and softer when I felt female.  So thinking that it might just be some sort of confirmation bias in my perception, I tried testing it out on my friends.  I didn't tell them what I was doing, but they all noticed a difference.  This was before I started hormones.

Quote from: DrummerGirl on June 14, 2015, 10:13:21 AM
One of the things I did when first transitioning was stand in front of a mirror and see if I looked different depending upon how I "felt" inside.  To my surprise, it made a difference!  I looked more feminine when I completely accepted myself as female, and more masculine when I didn't.  While some of it was posture, by far the biggest difference was in my eyes.  They were larger and softer when I felt female.  So thinking that it might just be some sort of confirmation bias in my perception, I tried testing it out on my friends.  I didn't tell them what I was doing, but they all noticed a difference.  This was before I started hormones.

Yes.
I'd say this is also true when it comes to voice, mannerism and walk...
just don't overdo it, like makeup...

hugs

Quote from: DrummerGirl on June 14, 2015, 10:13:21 AM
One of the things I did when first transitioning was stand in front of a mirror and see if I looked different depending upon how I "felt" inside.  To my surprise, it made a difference!  I looked more feminine when I completely accepted myself as female, and more masculine when I didn't.  While some of it was posture, by far the biggest difference was in my eyes.  They were larger and softer when I felt female.  So thinking that it might just be some sort of confirmation bias in my perception, I tried testing it out on my friends.  I didn't tell them what I was doing, but they all noticed a difference.  This was before I started hormones.

I've noticed this too, and I'm not on HRT yet. The difference in how I look in the mirror from day to day and even hour to hour seems pretty large. I chalk it up to drastically different resting expressions for the most part, but even trying to purposefully change that expression doesn't work quite right. How you feel impacts how you look in a big way, and it does seem to all be around the eyes.

Now if I can just figure out a way to stay in that mental space, that would be great. Those days when I feel all  and the mirror is decidedly masculine are no fun at all.

Quote from: IdontEven on June 14, 2015, 11:25:15 AM
Now if I can just figure out a way to stay in that mental space, that would be great. Those days when I feel all  and the mirror is decidedly masculine are no fun at all.

There are subtle ways to do that...
some people use underwear...
some people use any kind of object which they associate with their femininity...
for example a wristlet which can be touched...
and a mental image might also help...

hugs

My eyes appear to be open more and the whites of my eyes appear to be whiter now. When I lean in close to my mirror to apply eye makeup it always surprises me to see very feminine eyes looking back at me. So yes, the fat deposits around the eyes change.

As far as the strength thing goes - I used to pick up two 50lb bags of fertilizer from my truck and carry both of them around to the back yard with ease. Today I struggle using both hands to heft a 35lb jug of cat litter into my cart at the local discount store. HRT does cause significant strength loss, and considering that as MTFs we are likely to be carrying around more body weight than an average cisgender female (I still weigh the same as when I started transitioning) it can be a double whammy. The people that believe we retain our former strength are WRONG.

Quote from: IdontEven on June 14, 2015, 11:25:15 AM
Now if I can just figure out a way to stay in that mental space, that would be great. Those days when I feel all  and the mirror is decidedly masculine are no fun at all.

For me seeing a female every time I looked in the mirror came with time and with acceptance of who I am. In the past just like you - I would have those bummer days where I hated to look in the mirror because I saw "him". Let time and HRT do it's magic and I think you too will experience less and less of "him".

I remember the brouhaha when Renee transitioned.  Since then she has written that she was dissatisfied with transitioning and the result.  She has mentioned her heavy eye orbits and male type forehead.  Facial feminization surgery was either rudimentary or non existent in those dark ages.

As for the idea that all t's pass perfectly, that is laughable.  I just read an article in the people section that stated it took 4million  dollars to get Kaitlynn Jenner to those pictures on the front of vanity fair.  Unfortunately, I think, the average transgender person will not appear on a major cover, have a leading role in a tv production, or be passable only from the use of hrt.
   

Quote from: DrummerGirl on June 14, 2015, 10:13:21 AM
One of the things I did when first transitioning was stand in front of a mirror and see if I looked different depending upon how I "felt" inside.  To my surprise, it made a difference!  I looked more feminine when I completely accepted myself as female, and more masculine when I didn't.  While some of it was posture, by far the biggest difference was in my eyes.  They were larger and softer when I felt female.  So thinking that it might just be some sort of confirmation bias in my perception, I tried testing it out on my friends.  I didn't tell them what I was doing, but they all noticed a difference.  This was before I started hormones.

Oh my.  I thought this was just me.  When I am dressed as a female, my eyes look bigger, and I'm not talking about makeup.   I also am sure I am not making any conscious effort to make this happen.  There must be some subconscious cue to the body.  I do believe our bodies are our physical representation of our souls. That is why I get so upset with these people who populate the comment sections of CNN and the like, saying "XY chromosomes = male", like that is the be all and end all of human existence.

Yes, as someone who has transitioned twice, there is no doubt in my mind that the HRT regime  these days has much greater (better effects). On my first transition, I started on Oral Stilboestrol, then was moved to Oral Premarin them when in Australian for the first time, I was  put on Injections of Primogyn Depot. Once I was put on injections I had a dramatic surge in development. 30 years later I am on my second transition. Still only on Oestrogen only regime, but now on Oral Progynova and there has been a definitive change to effectiveness. I too have noticed how my eyes have changed and that has all gone to making my passing that, much easier. The white of my eyes are bigger and my eyes seem to be more bright and sparkly, but I do now get dry eyes a bit  (typical female menopause problem!). There is definitely a point where people start seeing the female look rather than the male look in ones face.

Although I have only been on a low dose for a little over 2 years, I am pretty sure that I am on the cusp or just over it in terms of the "male fail". I think some months ago  I was out at a restaurant in Adelaide with Cindy and during dinner I had to go to the ladies and after washing my hands, I re did my lipstick, put a bit of powder on  and a little more mascara and then I did a bit of a double take, because for the first time I saw a woman staring back at me (of course my reflection). Up to that point I hadn't seen that I passed, although other women (including friends such as Cindy, Catherine, MsGrace, JilP, and Eva Marie plus my UK CIS women friends) have all said to me that I pass fine. But of course we are all self doubting.  I have a married girlfriend in Devon (Cis female) that constantly tells me., look up, engage women and men directly, look into their eyes and smile sweetly and all people will see is a beautiful looking woman!  She tells me constantly ...Judith be confident - you are now a woman and you look and smell gorgeous!!!

Thank you to all that answered. Its something I've wondered about. Eyes may be an odd thing to attract attention, but for me, they tell a lot. Women body builders who take steroids tend to look like males about the face and eyes, so I think all your answers about the change having to do with hormones is correct.

The question of muscle mass and strength is a whole other question that was brought up in some of the answers. I don't think that the number of muscle cells ever changes. Its just the size. A regular male has x amount of muscle cells and they are generally more developed by testosterone, but they are not as developed as a male body builder. In part, some of that strength is mental. Before I ever started HRT, I worked in a kennel and could easily hold two fifty pound bags of dog food on one shoulder. I always felt like I had something to prove and lifted a lot. After I started HRT, I also started a demanding school program, so I had no time to lift and even though I had T in my system, I lost muscle mass.

The other half of the strength probably comes from build. Men's bones are  thicker, their pelvis is different than women's and they are generally bigger in build. That may effect leverage, I don't know. I see no problem with transwomen playing sports in women's divisions regardless. The genetic testing was ridiculous. For that matter, I've known some cis women who could beat the crap out of most guys!

sam1234