Quote from: iKate on July 24, 2015, 10:41:23 AM
It's been a month. I'm talking now.

Wow, what a huge difference... I mean like mind blowing.

And my voice doesn't really get tired. I just feel myself making a bit more effort to talk. I'm not pushing it much over the next month, but people already like it. I am keeping it low though. Not whispering but not loud either. It's very breathy at this point but I expect that to improve.

So far I'm happy, but I know it will get better. Praat measured 194Hz just normal speaking. The voice passes on the phone.

Regarding resonance - whatever Dr Kim did seems to have affected resonance too as everything is now head voice by default.

I'm so pleased for you Kate; it's fantastic that you can hear some difference already and it looks like you will be one of the successes.

I'm not so sure I will be though, Every time I've heard the post-op voices of older women like me, I haven't been that impressed, and from what I've heard of myself (those inadvertent occasions), I didn't hear much difference. You were very controlled over coughing and so on, but me, not so much, and even if not a rupture, I'm wondering if these few events make the final result less than optimal? Anja said something similar. I'll just have to wait and see.

Oh whilst I'm here I've been talking to The ID Hospital not far from Yeson. They do amazing things with faces and even though I went to Dr Ousterhout, I'm still not totally happy. Different topic I know. I'll transfer it to somewhere more suitable if I have more to say. Now all I have to do is win the lottery! And to think none of this would have been necessary if I'd had access to blockers when I was young, sigh...

Quote from: iKate on July 24, 2015, 10:41:23 AM
It's been a month. I'm talking now.

Wow, what a huge difference... I mean like mind blowing.

And my voice doesn't really get tired. I just feel myself making a bit more effort to talk. I'm not pushing it much over the next month, but people already like it. I am keeping it low though. Not whispering but not loud either. It's very breathy at this point but I expect that to improve.

So far I'm happy, but I know it will get better. Praat measured 194Hz just normal speaking. The voice passes on the phone.

Regarding resonance - whatever Dr Kim did seems to have affected resonance too as everything is now head voice by default.

That's truly amazing Kate, congrats.

Paige

The rainbow passage is so overplayed.

So I present to you, "Comma gets a cure."

http://vocaroo.com/i/s19ABJAiozfw

This is absolutely nothing but natural phonation. No resonance change or anything either. Just opening my mouth and talking.

Thats amazing, Kate. I am happy for you. This is really great for just the first weeks. And yes - Dr Kim definitely changes something about the timbre - not really the resonance but the way the voice sounds, with his surgery. To me this is the main benefit of the surgery now, even more noticeable to myself than the pitch change that occured.

I think one key thing is to just speak naturally without doing anything. Those who have had a longer time of using a trained voice like me seem to have trouble to "let go", even if that works better than trying to "do something".

I guess age does play a role, too at least in respect to the pitch increase. Chances of getting to the target 75 Hz increase seem to be somewhat less if you are older, but then the 75 Hz is an average - some get 100 Hz increase and others just 40. The change in timbre seems to happen in most of the cases though I believe, although there were those complaining about sounding male even at a high pitch after the VFS, so I am not sure about that.

But Kate - I would not say you are in head voice all the time - its more like your chest voice sounds more similar to the head voice, I believe - or don't you have any noticeable transition zone or "break" or "passagio" anymore now?

Quote from: iKate on July 24, 2015, 03:02:38 PM
The rainbow passage is so overplayed.

So I present to you, "Comma gets a cure."

http://vocaroo.com/i/s19ABJAiozfw

This is absolutely nothing but natural phonation. No resonance change or anything either. Just opening my mouth and talking.

Sounding great!

Quote from: anjaq on July 24, 2015, 03:42:41 PM
Thats amazing, Kate. I am happy for you. This is really great for the first few weeks.

Thanks!

QuoteBut Kate - I would not say you are in head voice all the time - its more like your chest voice sounds more similar to the head voice, I believe - or don't you have any noticeable transition zone or "break" or "passagio" anymore now?

Good question.

The chest vibration is a lot less now. I suppose I do have a slight chest voice still.

I haven't played around much with it. I mean I want to go slow and not damage anything. Month 2 should be better? I am contacting a speech language pathologist who will help me with resonance.

I don't know if I have a break as I haven't gone to much upper ranges. I can't really do falsetto. It just sounds really really high, the limited amount I tried.

I also should mention that I did undergo speech training before but not for feminization. Rather it's for public speaking and radio/TV. So I've learned to project my voice. I have to unlearn that. Where I work (at a TV news station) some of the talent has learned that too. You have to sound authoritative when reporting the news. Some of the women have a learned chest voice. I have to now reduce that for me. Imagine that.

While it sounds a bit higher to me than 194 hz, I don't think you will need to play with the chest voice. It stays in the comfort zone of mid range female and stays out of the squeaky high voice that you don't want to use on the air. I am not sure if it's the fact you are reading or still getting used to the new voice but it could use just a little more inflection. Don't add more than a little because you almost have enough already.

The voice you have would never be gendered male, has female speech patterns and for the second day of using it, it is very good.

Quote from: iKate on July 24, 2015, 07:07:01 PM
Thanks!

Good question.

The chest vibration is a lot less now. I suppose I do have a slight chest voice still.

I haven't played around much with it. I mean I want to go slow and not damage anything. Month 2 should be better? I am contacting a speech language pathologist who will help me with resonance.

I don't know if I have a break as I haven't gone to much upper ranges. I can't really do falsetto. It just sounds really really high, the limited amount I tried.

I also should mention that I did undergo speech training before but not for feminization. Rather it's for public speaking and radio/TV. So I've learned to project my voice. I have to unlearn that. Where I work (at a TV news station) some of the talent has learned that too. You have to sound authoritative when reporting the news. Some of the women have a learned chest voice. I have to now reduce that for me. Imagine that.

I agree with Anja that you are definitely in chest voice and not in head voice- and that is a GOOD thing.  I think people sometimes confuse head and chest resonance with head and chest voice.  Chest voice is the voice that everyone regardless of gender uses to speak.  There are rare exceptions but it is considered abnormal for anyone to speak in head voice.  Women have somewhat less of a tonal difference between head and chest voice and indeed it seems like this is what is happening to you: your chest voice is sitting higher and has more high overtones which gives it a more "heady" timbre. Hope that wasn't too confusing and congrats again on your results so far!

Quote from: kwala on July 24, 2015, 07:25:30 PM
I agree with Anja that you are definitely in chest voice and not in head voice- and that is a GOOD thing.  I think people sometimes confuse head and chest resonance with head and chest voice.  Chest voice is the voice that everyone regardless of gender uses to speak.  There are rare exceptions but it is considered abnormal for anyone to speak in head voice.  Women have somewhat less of a tonal difference between head and chest voice and indeed it seems like this is what is happening to you: your chest voice is sitting higher and has more high overtones which gives it a more "heady" timbre. Hope that wasn't too confusing and congrats again on your results so far!

Sorry to disagree with you but the head voice is what women normally use. I have already proven it here by lower the voices of FTMs by putting them in the chest voice. A great example of this is Karen Carpenter. Her speaking voice was head but she moved to the chest voice to sing in the lower range.

I guess it depends. I've heard feminine sounding women who use either head or chest. My wife uses chest voice meanwhile I have female colleagues who you can clearly tell it's head voice. The difference is they are born Americans. She is not. She's from the Caribbean just like I am.

At month 2 I start the yeson exercises but i think I will see a speech therapist to get the most out of it.

I'm stoked that I'm getting good results this early though!

Quote from: Dena on July 24, 2015, 07:21:30 PM
While it sounds a bit higher to me than 194 hz, I don't think you will need to play with the chest voice. It stays in the comfort zone of mid range female and stays out of the squeaky high voice that you don't want to use on the air. I am not sure if it's the fact you are reading or still getting used to the new voice but it could use just a little more inflection. Don't add more than a little because you almost have enough already.

The voice you have would never be gendered male, has female speech patterns and for the second day of using it, it is very good.

It's a bit of both. I will try to record some natural speech rather than reading. I do tend to dip down a bit sometimes. I need to work on that. High range is also kind of croaky and also inaccessible at the moment. So I'm not really bothering with it until maybe next week or week after.

Quote from: Dena on July 24, 2015, 07:33:09 PM
Sorry to disagree with you but the head voice is what women normally use. I have already proven it here by lower the voices of FTMs by putting them in the chest voice. A great example of this is Karen Carpenter. Her speaking voice was head but she moved to the chest voice to sing in the lower range.

Sorry, but this is just plain wrong.  Chest, or modal voice is the go-to register for everyone who speaks, it is EXTREMELY rare for any person of any gender to have head voice as a part of their normal speaking range.  Ask any vocal or singing coach and they will tell you the same.  I happen to be a huge fan of Karen Carpenter and she most definitely does NOT speak in head voice and when asked about her singingl range, she and Richard often used to say that although she could sing higher, the "money was in the basement." 

  This is a good example of the different voice registers. Notice when she starts that although her fundamental speaking frequency is quite high and bright, it is still in her chest voice.  When she transitions upward into head voice, the difference is clearly noticeable.

Quote from: iKate on July 24, 2015, 03:02:38 PM
The rainbow passage is so overplayed.

So I present to you, "Comma gets a cure."

http://vocaroo.com/i/s19ABJAiozfw

This is absolutely nothing but natural phonation. No resonance change or anything either. Just opening my mouth and talking.

That's absolutely fantastic Kate; there's nothing male there at all! Did you ever post your pre-op voice? It would be great to compare. Wow, you must be so happy with Dr Kim's work, and I think it can only get better as it settles down and as you get assistance from the voice and language therapist. What did they say at work? Are you out to them? You've been so helpful to all of us with advice and reassurance; you really deserve this great result.

Ps: come and work in the UK. The holidays are much better here than the US!

Quote from: Teslagirl on July 24, 2015, 09:36:52 PM
That's absolutely fantastic Kate; there's nothing male there at all! Did you ever post your pre-op voice? It would be great to compare. Wow, you must be so happy with Dr Kim's work, and I think it can only get better as it settles down and as you get assistance from the voice and language therapist. What did they say at work? Are you out to them? You've been so helpful to all of us with advice and reassurance; you really deserve this great result.

Ps: come and work in the UK. The holidays are much better here than the US!

Hahaha I wish! I actually considered it and as a commonwealth citizen I would fit right in.

I have my preop voice but I am not comfortable making that public much. I can send it privately upon request.

At work I am 100% fully out as I transitioned on the job. People have been just amazed. Everything from utter silence of disbelief to WOW.  That said I know it needs work and time but I think I have a good foundation to build on.

Thank you very much, I really hope you get a result you were looking for as well!

Quote from: Teslagirl on July 23, 2015, 06:07:29 AM
Thanks for the information about water Barbi. I was told that tap water was fine here, but maybe I should start buying bottled water. I don't get about much so don't see these water coolers. The farthest I've been is Yeson and back in a taxi a couple of times and the street outside Phil House.

I guess you can find a water purifier within Phil House. Ask the staff about the location.

Yes. Heavy rain in Seoul area until Sunday. The drought has been server during the past several months there, and everybody eagerly longed for heavy rain, and finally it arrived yesterday. Tomorrow, Hurricane Halola, which was changed into a typhoon, will pass here Jeju island, and I guess you will have some more rain on Tuesday morning.

barbie~~

Quote from: barbie on July 24, 2015, 10:05:20 PM
I guess you can find a water purifier within Phil House. Ask the staff about the location.

Yes. Heavy rain in Seoul area until Sunday. The drought has been server during the past several months there, and everybody eagerly longed for heavy rain, and finally it arrived yesterday. Tomorrow, Hurricane Halola, which was changed into a typhoon, will pass here Jeju island, and I guess you will have some more rain on Tuesday morning.

barbie~~

Yes it was very wet here last night. EEk! A hurricane is on it's way to you? Please stay safe!!
I'm going out to see the children's park whilst it's still dry. I went up on the roof and the view was fantastic, with two enormous mountains nearby and a huge skyscraper on the horizon. I really am not in Kansas anymore (not that I've been to Kansas or anything!!)

Quote from: anjaq on July 24, 2015, 03:42:41 PM
But Kate - I would not say you are in head voice all the time - its more like your chest voice sounds more similar to the head voice, I believe - or don't you have any noticeable transition zone or "break" or "passagio" anymore now?

I mentioned head and chest resonance to Dr Kim and he was very dismissive. "Rubbish" he said. Is there a difference between head and chest voice and head and chest resonance?

Quote from: Teslagirl on July 24, 2015, 10:41:07 PM
I mentioned head and chest resonance to Dr Kim and he was very dismissive. "Rubbish" he said. Is there a difference between head and chest voice and head and chest resonance?

Yes.  Head and chest voice are the most obvious.  Basically, your lower more comfortable speaking voice is your chest voice.  The point at which your voice "cracks" and beyond is your head voice.  For a male voice box, the difference is very obvious.  The timbre difference is less obvious in female voices, but there is still a breaking point.  Resonance is more complicated.  It can vary to different degrees.  I can hold a note in pure chest voice and force almost all of the vibrations into my chest or I can lighten it and lift some of the vibrations into my neck or head.  It will be the same pitch, but the timbre is different.  Likewise, in head voice, you can darken your sound by moving some of the resonance into a lower space and making it sound less breathy and falsetto-ish.  So, it is possible to sing and speak in chest voice but add some head resonance and likewise with singing or speaking in headvoice but adding some chest resonance.  But for normal speech, chest voice is always the go-to.  In most cases, people who speak using only head voice do so because of a speech impediment or vocal issue.  If you saw somebody on the street you knew and called out, "Hey, you!" I can pretty much guarantee that you would do it in chest voice whether you are a male or a female.

If you want to hear the difference between head and chest voice, just listen to this Mariah Carey song.  She switches between both registers so often it almost sounds like two different people singing the song in parts.
When the voice has more core to the sound she is in chest voice and when it sounds super breathy, she is in head.

Quote from: Teslagirl on July 24, 2015, 10:14:00 PM
with two enormous mountains nearby

Mountains in Korea are very steep, making them look far higher than their actual height.
The heights of those mountains are just about 300-400 m (ca. 1000 feet).
Almost all of the mountains in S. Korea are bustling with climbers everyday.



barbie~~

I think the whole chest and head resonance/voice thing is a bit complicated - same as the term falsetto.

Basically Dr Kim recognizes there are changes in resonance that need to happen to feminize the voice. His Website states that

QuoteAlso, the tone quality of the voice and resonance of the sound can be changed into a more female voice by changing the shape of the pharyngeal cavity through the patients' motivation, and by attending voice clinics and voice rehabilitations.

- which means to change resonance. He just does not call it chest and head resonance but sometimes seems to speak about different phonation patterns.

Head voice and chest voice is something different , it is just two of the main registers for speaking that are connected to pitch - at some pitch, the voice changes quality in a noticeable way, often associated with a "passagio" or even a voice break.  This is not changed by surgery, it has more to do with the muscles interacting with each other. The "chest voice" is the normal speaking voice. It goes from your lower-mid range through most of your regular speaking pitches. The head voice is the singing voice - it starts at higher pitches, D4 for me, G4 for others. The quality of both voices can be blended, mixed or pushed into the other pitch area to a degree, giving a soft transition.
According to my SLT her transition pitch is also at a D4 and for her, the head voice is part of speaking, but only in some short phases. So for example the classical "Oh my god" expression may start out with a very high pitch and with head voice and then drop into regular speaking pitch and chest voice. So this is kind of fascinationg because it means that many women will use a mix of chest and head voice while speaking with voice melody and intonations, while men will not do that, since their speaking pitch is much more below that transition pitch and their voices are usually more monotonous.