Having worked as a social worker in the areas of disability and adult mental health the whole notion of 'passing'  some kind of standard of appearance in order to safely blend in irritates me.  For a while I worked with some Muslim refugee families too so the whole question of looking 'normal' enough to blend in so the dangerous bigots and haters that are running about loose on the streets don't beat you up or kill you makes me wonder if the human race becoming extinct might be a good thing.

We are all beautiful and unique end of story.

There is really no changing nature though. People are trained to recognize gender. It is automatic and often, instant. And it is also hard wired. I really don't believe that it is learned behavior.

I tried a little experiment. My kids don't know one of my cousins. They (my cousin) identifies as a lesbian but I think is really FTM (but I go by what they say). However when I talk with their girlfriend they often excludes themself because it's two women talking.

The way they present is that they cut their hair short and dresses extremely masculine. They even asked for and wears the male uniforms at work (they work at an airport doing baggage handling). She is not

I asked them who is this? Boy or girl? They (kids) instantly said, "girl." I was astounded that they could pick it out so easily. But their (cousin's) facial features are slightly feminine as they are not on T.

So yes, it is ingrained. This is a real problem if you go out into the world as a woman (or a man in the case of FTM) and people don't recognize you as one. To me it feels like I'm being de-legitimized. Sure, I get to wear dresses, skirts and whatever but being viewed as a man in the dress is simply not the same as being viewed as a woman.

This is why there is such an obsession with passing and why there is also some obsession with stealth. Sure, you can be happy with yourself in your presentation even if you don't pass. But when people constantly throw into your face the fact that you are AMAB then how does that really help alleviate your dysphoria? Remember that a lot of transition is social, and yes, how others perceive us is very important. This is why we change our identity documents, and it is why we dress how we dress. This is even why we take hormones. Otherwise we could just dress how we were before, say we are a woman, and no one would believe us. There is a certain component of being yourself on the outside but this really only matters because of how others view us.

I do really feel for people who are constantly misgendered. I used to be misgendered a lot. I still get a few eyes turned in my direction. But that doesn't mean that passing in itself is evil or wrong and that we should throw away the concept of passing.

I feel some of us might have a hard time with getting what the deal with passing is. I do try to understand it, however since really early on whenever I went out people simply called me miss or ma'am. I never really got concerned with passing after that and at this point I go 3 days without shaving and just walk out the door in what I slept in with my hair how I woke up to get my wife from work in the morning and still get gendered female so I just don't think about passing anymore. I guess that's why some of us can't get the concept because we put so little thought into it on a daily basis.

No, passing is not important.

But, comfort and SAFETY are. Somtimes passing is made a fuss of for these two rrasons. I think, that it might be better, if we ask ourselves, do I feel comfatable going out yet? Do I feel safe.

And then adress what makes us feel uncomfatable, Instead of asking if we pass. Exspecialy since those brutaly honest answers can do a lot to make us feel more uncomfatable.

I think we need to be ready to face to worst of what society can throw at us, but this takes a period of preperation. I think its important for us to have as good of an understanding of what our local areas are like. Because it is those reactions that we WILL be gambeling with every time we leave the house. (no matter how passable we are)

We need to be able to cope with the, eww, the yuck and the descusting comments. I also think that as much as reducing how often we are clocked, It might also be better for ourselves to look for ways to cope with the times we are clocked better.

Because that way, we wont need as much clock reduction aplications to feel comfatable. Dont get me wrong, I understand that comfort is not safety, and that safty brings a security that offers a considerable amoout of comfort.

But the truth is, being tras is not the only reason we as humans are killed. I personally would hate to think that I spent years? decades? of my life with a passing focus, to end up being killed by somebody that didnt give a single thought to my being trans, and that allthough I didnt pass to them I was killed because I had somthing they wanted and they killed me for it?

As it stands, there are ares that offer a trans person the privalige of being out and open even when they dont pass, but in contrast there are areas that present a need for stealth a need to pass as much as possible.

Asking if you pass in areas that offer the privalige of being out without passing, Is not necessary.
But in an area that doent offer that privalige to the un-passing it is almost certianly as must.

I see it as the duty of those that can be openly trans, whether they pass or not, to be out and open and help the mentality of acceptig areas to spread. Besides, if no one ever knows your trans, how can people say I met a (incert area of spectrum here) and they were realy nice. Or things such as they are not all like that, when faced with negative portrayal?

I understand, that for some of us, there is a need for stealth, And would never ask those individuals whatever that reason is not to be .

I just hope that, in time progress by the privaliged will help exstend that privalige to wider areas, and removing some of that NEED some of us have.

To me the concept of passing isn't about meeting some kind of "appearance standard", it's about the world seeing me the way I see myself on the inside; it is validation of my true self. 

Quote from: iKate on August 14, 2015, 09:04:36 AM
There is really no changing nature though. People are trained to recognize gender. It is automatic and often, instant. And it is also hard wired. I really don't believe that it is learned behavior.

I tried a little experiment. My kids don't know one of my cousins. They (my cousin) identifies as a lesbian but I think is really FTM (but I go by what they say). However when I talk with their girlfriend they often excludes themself because it's two women talking.

The way they present is that they cut their hair short and dresses extremely masculine. They even asked for and wears the male uniforms at work (they work at an airport doing baggage handling). She is not

I asked them who is this? Boy or girl? They (kids) instantly said, "girl." I was astounded that they could pick it out so easily. But their (cousin's) facial features are slightly feminine as they are not on T.

So yes, it is ingrained. This is a real problem if you go out into the world as a woman (or a man in the case of FTM) and people don't recognize you as one. To me it feels like I'm being de-legitimized. Sure, I get to wear dresses, skirts and whatever but being viewed as a man in the dress is simply not the same as being viewed as a woman.

This is why there is such an obsession with passing and why there is also some obsession with stealth. Sure, you can be happy with yourself in your presentation even if you don't pass. But when people constantly throw into your face the fact that you are AMAB then how does that really help alleviate your dysphoria? Remember that a lot of transition is social, and yes, how others perceive us is very important. This is why we change our identity documents, and it is why we dress how we dress. This is even why we take hormones. Otherwise we could just dress how we were before, say we are a woman, and no one would believe us. There is a certain component of being yourself on the outside but this really only matters because of how others view us.

I do really feel for people who are constantly misgendered. I used to be misgendered a lot. I still get a few eyes turned in my direction. But that doesn't mean that passing in itself is evil or wrong and that we should throw away the concept of passing.

Kate Im with you on this.

However when the focus on passing becomes a dominant driving force in one's life I think that it can become unhealthy and obsessive.

I think it's natural for most transwomen to want to achieve most of the common cues that make up your gender to assist with passing. For females it's typically no facial hair, longer hair, softer voice and feminine clothing and accessories etc.i hate to stereotype woman, but let's face it if a trans-woman wants to strive for a butch look it sort of defeats the purpose of transition.

Once those basic ques have been adopted plus you have some time on HRT i think most trans women get to a point where they feel good about themselves. Spending time and energy working on those aspects to pass is normal I feel.

I think spending time and energy at attempting to pass on those most basic levels is important to a trans women's mental health in early parts of transiton and social acceptance.

It's all about enhancing parts that work well, and deemphasizing parts that don't. And that is the female mantra. If you really drew the short straw In the genetic lottery, then do what you can to have corrective surgeries. Just calling the need to pass "evil" is immature and shortsighted. People do this because they have a problem in front of them and either won't or don't know how to solve it. They have to put on their big girl/boy pants and do something about it. Otherwise just deal with what you have and learn to be happy with it.

I locked the topic and requested an Admin to review. The topic, in my opinion, has run it's coarse.