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FtM vs tomboy

Started by BenKenobi, August 18, 2015, 12:29:52 PM

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BenKenobi

I think one of the bigger hurdles about my inevitable coming out to my parents is that I'll be thrown "you're just a tomboy" at me. When i was younger, that's what i thought i was. I thought tomboys were just girls that rejected anything girly. So i never pursued anything beyond that and still hated my body (because i also thought that was normal for girls).

Now i know the difference but it's hard explaining that to people. In a way, the freedom girls have to dress how they want is sort of a double edged sword. FtM transgenders can just about hide in plain sight and no one really cares aside from the traditional minded parents. They just think "oh a tomboy, how cute". But i feel that makes it harder for us to convince our parents or ourselves that this isn't just a cute phase or just an attitude.

I wonder what your thoughts on the matter are?
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Dex

I had parents that allowed me to dress how I wanted and act how I wanted. I never was into girl things, always played "the boyfriend" when we played house as kids, etc etc. I came out as liking women when I was a teen and I think my mom struggled more with that than she did when I came out as trans at 29. Granted, we were both in different places over the course of those 14 years.

I do think that can be a barrier to self acceptance, especially. As children, we don't really know that our experience is any different than anyone else's. I knew that I was missing parts of me, and I knew i wished those parts were where they belonged but I never realized that that wasn't a part of everyone's experience. So because I was never forced into a gender box by my parents, I do think that delayed my own understanding of who I really was and what I needed to be happy. Even the crushing onset of serious depression as soon as puberty kicked in (despite a previously happy childhood) didn't help me figure it out.

In regards to parents though - I think you make it clear to them that this is not a new or fleeting thought and that you have carefully thought this out and are confident in that. I can't predict how your parents will react. But I had research and facts and was confident when I talked to my parents (my dad, despite being a stereotypical farm boy, has always been a live and let live type of guy whose love for his children could never lose to any preconceived ideas he might have about life, so that was actually an easy conversation). I was worried about my mom since she had struggled in my teen years. But she was nothing but supportive and said she wished she had known how much I had struggled because maybe she could have helped me much sooner.

Be confident, have facts, be genuine and don't be afraid to be vulnerable. I wish you luck, it's not an easy thing :)
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Jean24

Hello gentlemen, sorry for the invasion but I couldn't help but to respond! I actually get a similar reaction myself. You see I feel like a tomboy at heart and most MtF seem to go full throttle to look as feminine as possible. But when I say that I see myself as a tomboy, I usually get this reaction "Why transition to be a girl who wants to act like a boy then? You were born a boy you should just stay one if that's what you want!" It's so frustrating >_<
Trying to take it one day at a time :)
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FTMax

I was a tomboy in everyone's eyes until middle school. Then I was a very androgynous, butch-leaning lesbian. When I came out to my dad about wanting to transition, his first response was "Well, you could be MORE butch. You don't have to transition." But my stepmom understood the difference and corrected him.

If anything, I think it helps our case. I think guys that led stereotypically girly lives prior to coming out have a much greater difficulty convincing people that they didn't enjoy femininity.
T: 12/5/2014 | Top: 4/21/2015 | Hysto: 2/6/2016 | Meta: 3/21/2017

I don't come here anymore, so if you need to get in touch send an email: maxdoeswork AT protonmail.com
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FTMDiaries

It's a double-edged sword. In a way, we are fortunate that 'tomboys' are an acceptable thing in many of our cultures, because it gives some trans boys an outlet through which we can express our innate masculinity whilst growing up. Our trans sisters, on the other hand, often have no such outlet because in most cultures there is no acceptable way for a male-bodied child to express femininity. Those of us who were fortunate enough to grow up as 'tomboys' would do well to recognise this for the privilege it is.

But the downside is that society has an easy excuse to throw at us when we mention our discomfort with our assigned gender. Tomboys are very common, and the overwhelming majority of them identify as girls and later grow up to be women. They are girls, but just not 'girly-girls'. And because this is quite common, it can be difficult to argue against this when you know it's not your truth. My parents actually got frustrated with me because they thought I was being insolent by refusing to 'grow up' and embrace being female like most tomboys do.

In many cases, the difference between tomboys and trans boys is down to what happens at puberty. Tomboys tend to accept - and many even grow to like - the way their bodies change. But trans boys are (in many cases) traumatised by those same changes. And that's one of the keys to a diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria: your discomfort has to be consistent and persistent. If a kid is 'going through a phase', it tends to last for less than 6 months. Anything over 6 months - but particularly anything you've experienced for several years - needs to be taken very seriously indeed and cannot be described as a 'phase'.

I for one am grateful I had the opportunity to experience my childhood as a 'tomboy'. If I'd been forced to conform to traditional standards of femininity, I don't think I could've made it past my teens.





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Muscle Matt

^ You bring up some very true points.

I was always a little tomboy growing up, but it was also the 90s, so it was harder to differentiate between the tomboys and typical 90s fashion. My mom always wanted a girlie-girl to be friends with, so she never liked me and was doted on my sister. In high school I felt terrible about myself and tried to be girlie. I was still only so-so at it (I still never figured out makeup), but eventually all the attempts led me here, and I finally feel comfortable (for the most part).

My mom was really hoping I'd grown out of my frumpy phase and was going to be a woman she could go shopping and gossip with. She's been telling me I need to talk to my lesbian cousin and just become a butch lesbian (who mostly dates guys). I think she's confused with the difference between a tomboy and a butch lesbian. She acts embarrassed by me and I'm pretty sure she only acts like she likes me because I'm the only kid she had not dumb enough to kill myself with heroin (she never even acts concerned when I say I'm going to kill myself one day, so I know it's not genuine love).

I'm not sure what my dads gonna say when I tell him, but he doesn't really have a problem with how I dress now anyway, and he wasn't around much when I was trying to be a girl, so I'm hoping he at least doesn't give me the "just be a tomboy" crap.
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BenKenobi

I had no siblings so no one to pass the parental attention to. I tried being girly and i hated it. I hated dressing up, i hated dresses, skirts, heels, make-up and so forth. But i did it anyway because that's what was expected.

Though my parents and i compromised that i would dress up at super special events like banquets or whatever and the rest of the time i could do what i pleased. I accepted begrudgingly because i would have rather worn suits. I even brought up why i couldn't wear one and my mom explicitly stated unless it had a skirt, no suits otherwise it doesn't look "professional".

Sometimes i feel unsure of myself because of the pushback. That I'm only doing it now because i wasn't allowed to do it before.
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Kylo

It's interesting. I've been thinking about this too.

I think society sees women as inherently valuable.... largely regardless of what they look like or even act like - so long as those around them perceive them to be women still. It's just basic biology and the way humans' brains have wired themselves as a result - that "women and children first" mentality that evolved back when we were trying to survive in caves or on plains and splitting the roles by gender since biology pretty much forced us to back then, and when protecting women from harm was absolutely necessary to the survival of any group of humans. A "tomboyish woman" or even "butch woman" is tolerated more than an "effeminate man" because societies tend to believe "women should be protected" and "men should protect women"... so I figure the backlash on gender bending women or ftms is - on the whole - less hostile because of that instinctive breaker we have on tolerating females and on not being violent to females. (I know about those publicized cases of violence and hate crime toward FtMs, but I still think we have an easier time of it than MtFs).

- Whereas a man is more defined in society's eyes by what he does and brings to the table... if he's acting like a female but cannot reproduce like one then he could literally be seen by many as not having much value as a man because he's not fulfilling those male roles that make him socially 'valuable', and no value as a woman, because he cannot reproduce like one. It's very primitive subconscious wiring, designed long ago when we had some need for it, still very much in place even though now we don't need it. But it may go some way to explaining why FtMs are more tolerated than MtFs in general and why even when we come out as male, people tend to react less violently to us, but have a very hard time 'letting go' of the idea we are female, even going so far as to ask us if we're not just having some kind of "personal crisis", if we really know what we want at all... and so on. People seem kind of pre-programmed to think it's a cry for help from a female rather than a real pro-active decision, and they're even kinda pre-programmed on the whole to be nicer to us and help us as long as they think we are women, compared to those they think are men. For a male coming out as female, I imagine the reaction is more hostile if this biological wiring has always determined that men should not "act like women", because if a man says he is now female, not only is he probably going to pass up or shy away from traditionally seen "male responsibilities", but he cannot really ever be quite like a female by becoming pregnant. 

I don't agree with all of these roles/ideas personally, but they are out there for all to see in action a lot of the time in pretty much every society on earth. A lot of people may have more progressive ideas about equality and so on now, but I think the wiring is still there and it still comes out every time someone's caught in a housefire or disaster situation. People instinctively tend to help women and children over men, and instinctively expect men to make themselves useful helping out others. Not saying that's a bad thing - personally I always feel inclined to help others in need, and not so much myself, in serious situations I put a lot of thought for myself on the back burner because I know I'll make do somehow while others might not. And that's because innately I feel no female value in myself and have no maternal instincts... instead my instincts are to protect and to aid and to be useful, probably like most mens'.   

I wouldn't have given much thought to what I just said above, if I hadn't experienced my last year or so pre-transition and how people were actually treating me in person. Coming out I received general support, but a lot of "are you sure?" "do you need help?" "do you know what you're doing?" even though the people saying it have known me for life and know that I nearly always know what I'm doing, that I'm usually a resolute and capable person who almost never asks for help. Some people I know are having difficulty accepting my trans status, even though they know I've always been a distressed and awkward child and this is a big part of the explanation for that. Some have even said "I don't want to let go of the idea of you as a woman" or "what's wrong with just being a tomboy?" I keep coming back to this idea of how valuable a female is on that subconscious level in people's minds... and how it's perhaps a reason for why I got so much conflicting support and disbelief (or even mockery as a silly fad) from others. I keep trying to find a decent explanation for why people cling so desperately to the old idea of us and why it becomes engrained so deep in their minds in the first place, even if they are normally very rational, intelligent people. I think this biological wiring might be it. It comes from a time when we couldn't perhaps afford to mess around with gender because humans subsisted on the edge of survival, and when the technology just was not there that would have presented the possibility of a gender change, and so the mental process of accepting that is tougher, even now.

With these ideas milling about in my brain, I just got back from work where I met a new male coworker from Eastern Europe. Without knowing a thing about me, he immediately insisted he would carry the heavy stuff because I was a woman, even though I'm not looking all that much like one these days, or act like one at all. I didn't make a scene; I let him do as he pleased as I understand these roles and these tendencies are ancient, wired in; this compulsion to help a woman out in the guy is as strong as it is in me if I saw someone weaker than me struggling to lift something heavy, and he sees me currently as female. I don't think it's anything more than common sense from a biological standpoint, although it conflicts very much with our selves and our lives, as the natural "anomalies" we seem to be. Some people don't want to accept that a man is becoming a woman or a woman is becoming a man and perhaps sometimes this is very much because it really is new ground that nature has never broken before in our species... there is no knowing how to feel or how to react to it, no established behaviors to fall back on and no knowing where it goes. We might be a potentially progressive species but a lot of our instincts and reactions to things are still back in the cave-age when they were formed. There's not much other explanation for all the various phobias and suspicions toward fellow humans civilized people still 'develop' at the drop of a hat~         





       




"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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BenKenobi

Uhm. I completely disagree with everything you said. Men never "valued" women. They saw them as inferior and weak. Men were the ones to take care of the hard stuff because they felt women could not. MtFs are treated as lesser because of that sexism and misogyny
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Arch

Quote from: BenKenobi on September 05, 2015, 06:44:58 PM
Uhm. I completely disagree with everything you said. Men never "valued" women. They saw them as inferior and weak. Men were the ones to take care of the hard stuff because they felt women could not. MtFs are treated as lesser because of that sexism and misogyny

Wow, really? Don't you think you're tarring all men with the same brush here? It would be easy to read your post as male-bashing, and I think that a lot of people--including moderators--will. You might want to rethink what you've written. Don't confuse value with respect.

It's quite easy for a person to value a being that he considers to be inferior. For example, millions of men throughout history have valued slaves and farm animals. However, the owners might not have respected their "belongings." And I consider my cats to be inferior to humans in many ways, but I value my cats all the same. I respect them in certain ways but not others.

At the very least, women as a sex have always been valued for their reproductive function even if they didn't get an iota of actual respect.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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Mariah

Good point Arch. Now having said that.  :police: No bashing of any group please. Everyone has there good and bad points. Lets please keep TOS 5 and 10 in mind. Thank you.
Mariah
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask me.
[email]mariahsusans.orgstaff@yahoo.com[/email]
I am also spouse of a transgender person.
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BenKenobi

Quote from: Arch on September 05, 2015, 08:49:11 PM
Wow, really? Don't you think you're tarring all men with the same brush here? It would be easy to read your post as male-bashing, and I think that a lot of people--including moderators--will. You might want to rethink what you've written. Don't confuse value with respect.

It's quite easy for a person to value a being that he considers to be inferior. For example, millions of men throughout history have valued slaves and farm animals. However, the owners might not have respected their "belongings." And I consider my cats to be inferior to humans in many ways, but I value my cats all the same. I respect them in certain ways but not others.

At the very least, women as a sex have always been valued for their reproductive function even if they didn't get an iota of actual respect.
I'm not bashing a specific group. It's the same with women. I'm not going to rethink what I've written because it can be proven as fact, regardless if you like it or not. Also i put human value in a different level than say a farm animal's. So anyone that says they value another human I kinda expect them to have respect along with it instead of, you know, property
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Mariah

Considering this thread has run it's course and some seem content on arguing a particular point. Thread locked.
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask me.
[email]mariahsusans.orgstaff@yahoo.com[/email]
I am also spouse of a transgender person.
Retired News Administrator
Retired (S) Global Moderator
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Arch

A couple of final mod points, and then I'll shut up. Your statement is a gross generalization that allows no exceptions. Therefore, it IS male-bashing and violates the TOS.

Second, I very consciously left the thread unlocked after I posted. But it's not a good idea to argue publicly with a moderator, especially after yet another mod has stepped in and pointed out certain TOS that are in jeopardy.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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