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How do hormones work?

Started by Jayne01, August 18, 2015, 05:15:18 PM

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Jayne01

Please forgive my ignorance on this subject. I hope I don't offend anybody. I don't even really know what hormones are and what their role is in the body.

I was wondering how hormones work. When someone is transitioning, MTF for example, they take female hormones to be and feel more female. Wouldn't the opposite be true with male hormones? I mean, if you took male hormones, wouldn't that make you feel more male, hence match your physical body? That sounds like a better solution to me. It would avoid all the problems of acceptance with family, friends and society in general.

Please feel free to educate me on my lack of knowledge on this subject.

A quick note about myself. I'm 43 MTF but I have not even yet considered transition. I'm still trying to come to grips with what is happening in my head.

Jayne
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Mariah

Taking males hormones won't make a CIS male feel anymore manly. It might make him strong which might make him feel for manly, but that is it. For someone who is trans and is going from Male to Female taking testosterone would likely cause issues like depression to worsen. I know as we were adjusting my dosages tell we got the mix the ENdo wanted at one point the estrogen level dropped to much and it started to cause the depression to role back in. In other words , it can make an MtF feel manly when she isn't in the first place. Hugs
Mariah
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I am also spouse of a transgender person.
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Laura_7

http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/DOH-Assets/pdf/doh-transgender-experiences.pdf

Before birth, the body and the brain develop at different times.
There are differences in brains in men and women, triggered by certain substance levels.
So a mismatch between brain and body is possible.
People feel this.
Quite a few mtf people feel better with the hormonal influence of estrogen and a receding hormonal influence of testo.
A higher testo level does not help. People do not feel better then.
Some people try to do this socially, overdoing gender roles like trying to be extra male, until they find out its not them.

If in doubt its possible to start out with a low hormone dose and see how it makes you feel.

Usually bioidentical estrogen is given in the form of oral/sublingual pills to lessen effects on the liver, patches, gels, implants or injections.

And an anti androgen.
There is one form of hrt with implants and injections where the estro levels are driven well into the female range and the t levels are driven down into the female range as well, without anti androgen.

Quite a few people add bioidentical progesterone, which might help with mood, even out some effects of estro, might help with breast growth and have some antiandrogen effects. Its available as capsules, gel or implants.


Concerning hormones, they have also an influence on the body.
Some secondary sex attributes might be developed, and for example the skin can become softer and fat a bit more distributed to a more female pattern.
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KristinaM

I thought testosterone would help me a couple times over the past 4-5 years and even had my levels checked twice before considering the other side of the coin.  I wanted to be "more manly" and grow bigger muscles and be strong.  I thought it would help with my sex drive.  I thought it would help me be the man I was supposed to be because presumably I had low testosterone and that was my problem.

As it turns out, my testosterone levels were in the 900+ range, well above the "normal" baseline, so the doctors would not prescribe me testosterone supplements.  I didn't understand how I could have such high testosterone and yet be so diminutive in the frame and muscle department, and my sex drive was declining as well.

It wasn't until over a year later that I discovered I was transsexual.  After only two months of "low dose" hormones my testosterone level has plummeted and my estrogen levels are in the cis-female range.  It didn't take much of a dose at all to get my body in balance, and I couldn't be happier.  The prospect of my feminizing body has me so much more excited than going the other way and trying to be more masculine.
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iKate

Much of your brain development, particularly the part that determines gender identity is developed before you were born.

Exogenous hormones after birth can't "fix" that. Believe me, they have tried.
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HughE

Quote from: Jayne01 on August 18, 2015, 05:15:18 PM
I was wondering how hormones work. When someone is transitioning, MTF for example, they take female hormones to be and feel more female. Wouldn't the opposite be true with male hormones? I mean, if you took male hormones, wouldn't that make you feel more male, hence match your physical body? That sounds like a better solution to me. It would avoid all the problems of acceptance with family, friends and society in general.
Basically, the way hormones work is that they bind to and activate a receptor molecule, and the combined hormone/receptor complex is then transported into the cell's nucleus, where it acts as a kind of "master switch" for turning on particular sets of genes. The two main types of hormones we're interested in are estrogens and androgens. Estrogens (the main one being estradiol) switch on the genes responsible for the day to day running of a female body, whereas androgens (testosterone and DHT) switch on an equivalent set of genes, except the male version of them. Basically, estradiol tells the cells throughout your body that they're part of a female body, and to do the female version of all the things they do, whereas testosterone tells the cells throughout your body that they're part of a male body and to do the same sort of things, except the male version of them. Whether you have a Y chromosome or not doesn't make any difference at all except in your germ cells (testicles or ovaries), where it drives the formation of testicular tissue. All the other cells throughout your body are effectively gender neutral, and take their cue as to whether to act male or female from whatever hormones are present.

That's what happens in adulthood. In an unborn baby, things work slightly differently. Again, hormones are what tells the cells throughout your body whether they're part of a male or female body, except rather than controlling just the day to day running of that body, they're directing all the sex-specific growth and development that's taking place. As an adult, changes to your hormones have mainly temporary effects, whereas in an unborn baby, the effects are permanent.

For example, just by injecting pregnant lab animals with testosterone, you can cause all their female fetuses to develop as if they were male, and if you start early enough in the pregnancy, you can produce genetically female babies who look just like males. By waiting until a bit later in the pregnancy, you can also produce female animals that look like normal females, except their behaviour is male. As adults, they'll attempt to mate with other females and otherwise behave like they were male, despite having a female body.

That's an important clue as to how ->-bleeped-<- can arise. Basically, all it needs is for something to go wrong with your hormones during your prenatal development, except after the critical period for genital development has finished (which, in humans, is the first trimester). Brain development is ongoing throughout the pregnancy, so you can have had substantial cross-sex brain development take place, even though you look no different from someone else of your biological sex. If this has happened to you, the gender differences are built into the actual structure of your brain, and, as an adult, there's absolutely nothing you can do to change what's there. You can alter your body to better fit in with how you identify though, and take hormones that are a better match for the needs of your brain than the ones your body is producing.

Another difference between adults and unborn babies in the way hormones act, is that, in adults, estradiol needs to be there in order to get your cells behaving in a female way. In an unborn baby, high levels of testosterone will cause male development, but if the testosterone isn't there, a fetus will develop as female by default. The fetus doesn't need ovaries and to be producing estradiol in order to develop as female. If there is testosterone present and able to do its job, development occurs as male, otherwise it occurs as female instead. This is something that's been shown in numerous experiments on animals, and there's a condition called Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which proves the same applies in human beings too. This is quite important for understanding how MTF ->-bleeped-<- arises. Basically, all it needs is for something to happen to suppress your testosterone production during the second and/or third trimester, for instance exposure to a hormone or other chemical that interferes with testosterone production. It doesn't necessarily have to involve an estrogen.

Something I've been trying to point out to people for a while now, is that, for decades, doctors have been giving pregnant women hormones and other drugs that can interfere with testosterone production, as part of treatment for preventing miscarriages and for various other medical reasons. In the 1960s and 70s, large numbers of pregnant women were also given androgenizing progestins, hormones that turned out to be able to mimic the effects of testosterone in female fetuses. I think it must certainly be an important cause of ->-bleeped-<-, and may well be the main thing causing it.
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Carrie Liz

I think you're misinterpereting what some people say about how HRT makes them "feel" more female.

They don't mean it changes their identity to feel more female. They mean it changes their moods and the overall "feel" of their brain chemistry such that it more closely matches how they feel their brain is supposed to feel.

Basically, hormones play a part in how your brain reacts to things. Testosterone increases aggressiveness, sex drive, and also masculinizes the body such that it has more body hair, bigger muscles, secretes male pheremones, and many other things.

To a trans person, those things that testosterone makes the mind feel and the body feel feel funadmentally wrong to us. They are in conflict with our internal deeply-held sense of our own gender.

When we say that HRT makes us "feel" more female, we don't mean that it changes our identity from male to female. No matter how much testosterone we took, our identity would remain unchanged, and more testosterone would only make us feel more and more like our body's internal chemistry was in conflict with what our brain is actually wired to expect. HRT reduces sex-drive, lowers aggressiveness, and changes the body to be smoother, softer, less hairy, etc. So when the body and the mind changes to a state of being that is more feminine, the result is that we "feel" more female, because everything matches better the gender that we identify with.

That is what we mean when we say we "feel" more feminine.
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Jayne01

Hi everyone and thank you so much for the replies.

Hugh that was a very detailed reply. Thank you, it made a lot of sense. Is there some kind of medical test or examination that can be done to identify which way your brain is "wired" so to speak?

Carrie Liz you are right. I was misunderstanding what people meant when they say HRT makes them feel more masculine or feminine as the case may be. Thanks for clearing it up for me.

Jayne.
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HughE

Quote from: Jayne01 on August 19, 2015, 03:07:46 PM
Hugh that was a very detailed reply. Thank you, it made a lot of sense. Is there some kind of medical test or examination that can be done to identify which way your brain is "wired" so to speak?
There's no test as such, however, a trial dose of estrogen would probably give you a fair idea of whether it's the right thing for you or not!

I don't know about trans people in general, but a lot (around half) of the people I've talked to with a history of DES exposure, have a type of body structure known as "eunuchoid habitus". This is caused by your body producing below normal male levels of testosterone during your childhood and puberty, and is something that's usually associated with intersex conditions. Here's a list of the characteristics associated with eunuchoid habitus:

* long, slender arms and legs
* a leg length that's significantly greater than the height of your upper body (the two should be about equal in men)
* an armspan 3cm or more greater than your height.
* sparse or very fine body hair
* a female "escutcheon" or pubic hair pattern (like an upside down triangle and confined to the pubic region)
* difficulty building upper body muscle
* feminine facial features and a generally feminine appearance (soft chubby features rather than hard muscular ones; gracile bone structure etc).
* gynecomastica
* other things such as female digit ratio (index finger equal to or longer than ring finger); absence of acne as a teenager; long, luxuriant eyelashes and comparatively small, high arched feet (in my case anyway).

Not all MTF trans people have this type of body structure, but it does seem to be a lot more common among us than among the cis male population. This is another reason for thinking that ->-bleeped-<- is actually a type of intersex condition, except one where the main effects have been on the brain rather than the genitals.
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Jayne01

Hi and thanks for the information.

I definitely don't have eunuchoid habitus. On the outside I am all male. It's my brain that seems to have come from the female pile when they were handing out brains. :)

There are times when I feel ok being male and I question whether I am trans or not, but those times seem to not last long. It is very confusing feeling ok as a male sometimes and really wishing I was born female other times.

I think I have spent my life trying to be what people expect me to be that I no longer know myself what I am. I don't seem to have my own personality. I'm just a non person.

Somewhere inside me is the real me. Whether the real me is a mal or female, I don't care! I just want to be me and not what others expect me to be.

Sorry, got into a bit of a rant there.

Jayne
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Laura_7

Quote from: Jayne01 on August 20, 2015, 02:52:04 PM

There are times when I feel ok being male and I question whether I am trans or not, but those times seem to not last long. It is very confusing feeling ok as a male sometimes and really wishing I was born female other times.

I think I have spent my life trying to be what people expect me to be that I no longer know myself what I am. I don't seem to have my own personality. I'm just a non person.

Somewhere inside me is the real me. Whether the real me is a mal or female, I don't care! I just want to be me and not what others expect me to be.


In my opinion some trans people learn from childhood on to read other peoples expectations...
knowing should help...
and maybe spending time in nature...

meditation...
and writing down ones dreams and hopes...


*hugs*
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Ms Grace

Quote from: Laura_7 on August 20, 2015, 06:00:20 PM
In my opinion some trans people learn from childhood on to read other peoples expectations...
knowing should help...
and maybe spending time in nature...

meditation...
and writing down ones dreams and hopes...


*hugs*

Couldn't agree more.

You'd think male hormones could be a "fix" for m2f trans but clearly they're not otherwise that's what we'd all be doing instead. In 2010 I found that I had low testosterone. The doctor suggested T shots and I was like noooooooooooo thanks. The thought of becoming "more male" terrified me.
Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
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Jayne01

Hi Laura_7 and Ms Grace. Thanks for your replies.

I think I used to have dreams and hopes but I can't be sure if they were my own or what others had dreamed and hoped for me or what I thought I should be dreaming and hoping. I honestly have no idea. It's just a blur. I know that I love my wife more than life itself. She sees something in me that I simply don't see myself. I really wish I had a clue what she sees in me. Maybe I could like me too then.

I'm really hoping the gender therapist can help me figure things out. Hopefully I don't have to wait too much longer. The therapist I'm currently seeing hand me a pen and paper and asked me to write what I was thinking down. I was just sitting there blank. Couldn't come up with a single thought. My brain just turned off.

I can't even decide what I want for lunch. I would read a menu in a restaurant and you would think I was making a life or death decision. When it comes to thinking and making decisions about me, I end up making a random choice in the end because "me" doesn't seem to exist, so how could I know what "me" wants. I don't know if that made any sense.

I seem to have gone off on a rant again. Sorry about that.

One thing I do know is that I like this website. The people here are kind and helpful.

Jayne
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Dee Marshall

Jayne, I remember that hollow, empty, no one's home feeling well. For me it's a sure sign that I was repressing the real me. In my case the real me was a girl her momma called "Dee". For you, perhaps, something else.

Perhaps not.
April 22, 2015, the day of my first face to face pass in gender neutral clothes and no makeup. It may be months to the next one, but I'm good with that!

Being transgender is just a phase. It hardly ever starts before conception and always ends promptly at death.

They say the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. I say, climb aboard!
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leacobb

When i went to the doctors befor my transition, i had my levels checked. And he told ne that i had a high level of natural testosterone for someone my age. I was 17 at the time. But the only way i felt was terrible. And then when i started HRT i started to feel happier. More content.. it was amazing.. it was like all the pain i had in my head was slowly drifting away..

There is loads of information online regarding HRT the NHS site has some good info..

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Will Humanity Live In Acceptance, Love and Hope Or Is It Just A Dream
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Jayne01

Hi Dee & leacobb. Thanks for your comments.

I've never had my testosterone levels checked. I don't even know what's considered low, high or normal. I'm not even considering HRT until after I have seen the gender therapist. I'm still kind of holding on to the hope that I'm not trans and just going through some kind of mid life crisis (that started when I was about 7 or 8 :)).

I know that sounds like I'm just keeping myself in denial, but as I mentioned in my previous post, I have trouble deciding what I want for lunch. There is no way I would put myself on the path of HRT without help and guidance from a professional.

I can't believe I'm even talking about this. A few months ago I would have buried this side of me so deep. Now I think about it all day everyday. When I open my eyes in the morning the very first thought I have is to scream out loud "I want to be a woman"! A "normal" guy wouldn't do that, right? Just the fact that I even have any thoughts that I'm in the wrong body should be a clue.

My whole life I would think that there was something unique about me and some higher power (aliens, secret agents, Star Trek) would be looking down on me and select me because of my special skills! (I know, I watch too many movies!!) I suppose my special skill is being able to pass myself off as a guy when I am not.

Wow! What am I babbling on about??? I seem be way off the reservation now. It's good that I can write stuff here and people understand most of what I am trying to say. If even only one person reads and replies it is a big help. I am truly grateful to all of you for your comments.

Thank you.

Jayne
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KristinaM

Quote from: Jayne01 on August 21, 2015, 03:19:30 PM
My whole life I would think that there was something unique about me and some higher power (aliens, secret agents, Star Trek) would be looking down on me and select me because of my special skills! (I know, I watch too many movies!!)

Maybe not directly related to your statement, but I used to dream about Star Trek and getting in a transporter accident where I was turned female, hah.  Also, movies about Virtual Reality that would tap into your brain and you could really BE a woman in that world.  Ahhh, if only...

But!  Transition, here I come!
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Dee Marshall

Actually, Jayne, as a child I didn't fit in well and I used to fantasize that I was an alien or an elf or something. All I knew was that I wasn't what I appeared to be. It would seem that I was right!
April 22, 2015, the day of my first face to face pass in gender neutral clothes and no makeup. It may be months to the next one, but I'm good with that!

Being transgender is just a phase. It hardly ever starts before conception and always ends promptly at death.

They say the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. I say, climb aboard!
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Jayne01

Hi and thanks for all your comments.

I have another question. From everything I am learning, gender is something that is determined before birth. Wouldn't that mean that you would know something wasn't quite right as a very young child? I know some trans do know as a very young child, but there seem to be so many who don't quite figure it out until much later in their adult lives. Is it because we are brought up as our biological gender and we just get confused and can't identify what the problem is? Or if you sit closer to the middle of the male/female spectrum the brain/body mismatch isn't so great?

I just can't work out why I am 43 and only now just starting to accept the possibility that I might be transgender. That also upsets me a little because I think I have wasted my life as the wrong person.

Jayne
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Cindy

Hi Jayne,

Our identification as our affirmed gender varies greatly among individuals and there are several reasons. One being that we 'protect' ourselves by repressing our identity to such an extent that we are not consciously aware of it anymore - and then it slowly returns, often in middle age when we relax in our lives a little.

As far as your earlier question of treating MtF with high dose testosterone, this has been used but in almost all cases failed spectacularly. I recall the comment from my therapist when I asked him if there was someway that he could help me 'be a man' so I could be 'normal', his reply was simple. I can change your body to match your brain, but I can't change your brain to match your body.

I'm now a normal female; mission accomplished!
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